Mike Gravel Joins Libertarian Party
- Thread starter wkmac
- Start date
wkmac
Well-Known Member
So you posted that you were a Gravel supporter. Before that you posted that you would like to hunt Libertarian's for sport in the streets. Those little voices in your head must be having lots of fun.
You mean this:
Personally I look forward to the day when America wakes up and we hunt republicans and democrats with dogs just for pure sport! Tells you what I think of the 2 parties.
Oh BTW D, we can hunt the Libertarian party as well because IMO it's way of thinking, not the answer in the form of a political party.
Well saying Gravel joined the LP as "interesting" I don't consider an endorsement but maybe you do. As for supporting Gravel, "IF" I was gonna vote democrat, which I did not, I would probably vote for Gravel which is I believe what I said. I also said I'd vote Kucinich before Hillary, Obama or some of the rest even though I disagree with a lot of his economics but I think even though niave, he's not manical or dishonest.
I like to see mavrick candidates on bothsides just as a voice of fresh issues and ideas whether I agree or not. My disdain for the 2 major parties is obvious but in the case of the Libertarian party, my beef with them is taking a philosophy if you will and try to mold a political party out of it. I understand why they do and it does help bring the conversation out but I'm still concerned the concept will become tied down into a political party rather than a broader spectrum and become marginalized. They are also becoming way to "inside beltway" connected and this IMO is not healthy.
I also think both republican and democrat parties were healthier when they had and to some extent embraced both conservative and liberals alike within their ranks unlike today where at least they appear fragmented into specific camps. I also liked the extra layer of checks and balance this gave as well that even one party with majority could still face objections within it's own ranks.
As for the voices in my head, I'm use to it. After years of LSD use in the 70's you become accustom to such things!
If was fun watching the 93' movie Dazed and Confused last night with my wife. Did that bring back memories and lots of laughs. If only life were that simple and "almost" innocent!
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
My disdain for the 2 major parties is obvious but in the case of the Libertarian party, my beef with them is taking a philosophy if you will and try to mold a political party out of it. I understand why they do and it does help bring the conversation out but I'm still concerned the concept will become tied down into a political party rather than a broader spectrum and become marginalized. They are also becoming way to "inside beltway" connected and this IMO is not healthy.
quote]
This has already happened with the hardcore anti war part of the party. Believe it or not there are some Libertarian types who are not completely opposed to the war in Iraq.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
As for libertarian types supporting the war. Oh yeah, absolutely. There are also Pro-Life libertarians, Ron Paul for example and myself, there are libertarians who are what one might call a Constitutionalist who desire a return to the organic Constitution, there are anarcho-capitalist or anarcho-libertarians who desire a more wide open society with virtually no gov't at all (I sympathize with that ideal although I think it most unrealistic) and then there are those who would be more the anti-federalist types of which I am one who would like to abolish the Constitution and return to the Articles of Confederation in which States and local gov't are supreme and thus control of society is in the hands of the local citizen and they are free to have a wide open society or a communist enclave if they so desire. It's purely their choice of how to run their local community.
Personally, I think we need a few "liberal", "commie" type communties to attract the freeloaders so the rest of us don't have to deal with them. You see, there really is a need for "liberals" on a local basis afterall! LOL!
Libertarians are a diverse crew, they come in many shapes, sizes and styles. Some even support George Bush and publically say so. Neal Boortz on talk radio for example loves Bush on the war and openly supports him. I even believe Neal voted for GW in 04' after many, many years voting libertarian. Brian Wilson, another talk show host of a libertarian nature on the flipside supports Ron Paul. Neal does not because of Paul's foreign policy beliefs. The LP may or may not nominate a candidate opposed to the Middle East miltary actions but you can bet there will be folks present who in fact do support such action and will make their voice heard.
Also check out the Cato Institutes website for more on libertarian support of middle east policy. On the flip, antiwar.com is a libertarian website opposed to the current policy so again it goes both ways. With the democrats, if you openly support the war and defy party leadership, you can look at Lieberman for that example. Ron Paul for the republican side. There is no real openness in either party IMO for alternative ideas which IMO again is a dangerous thing.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
I believe this day and age you can divide the 2 major parties into 4, being that each parties each have conflicting views. The Dems can split the liberals from the (Reagon democrats)moderates. And the Reps can split the traditionlists from the far right neo-cons. What I can't fanthom is how does a Clinton supporter jumps ship to McClain if Barack wins the nomination. I've been hearing this on talk shows, and starting to question the mental capacities of these fence jumpers who just don't realize how close to the issues Barack and Clinton are as oppose to McClain. Or maybe these callers are Rush Linbaugh infiltraters trying to vote Hillary and prolong the nomination and further divide the Dems.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1723756,00.html
As far as Gravel
a little testy during the debates but had some good points. His whole persona changed when he's was on Bill Maher Hbo's show and was relaxed and talked to people ,not shouted.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1723756,00.html
As far as Gravel
a little testy during the debates but had some good points. His whole persona changed when he's was on Bill Maher Hbo's show and was relaxed and talked to people ,not shouted.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Looks like Barr is going to run for the WH as most expected.
Be interesting to see if after the smoke clears and the LP picks a candidate and if Barr and Gravel or visa versa finish 1/2 if they will tagteam together for the general election?
D,
I take it you've been listening or have been hearing of Rush's promotion (Operation --------, sorry I forgot the name) he's been playing with on the radio. Rush is no dumbie in respect to playing around in this type of arena and if in fact is was a true, concerted effort of a serious nature, he could find himself run amuck of the law. He's smart enough and thus why he laughs because I'll willing to bet that not only has he consulted lawyers but has maintained a good file of pre-broadcast meetings where program content is discussed and the real intent of this whole thing is a play off of the myth that he dells out marching orders to the minions for the GOP. I'm sure there are a few dittoheads who might follow his supposed advice but in most primaries you also have important downstream elections such as Congress or State/Local that are to hard to give up. Now I can see the McCain camp doing this as I've seen this done before myself but I personally think Rush is using a bit of satire and play on myth for it's pure entertainment value. JMO however.
As for Hillary supporters crossing to McCain in the general? I disagree as I can see that. From the standpoint of voting record, she and McCain are really a lot more alike and Obama is more across the isle from them. Remember, Hillary in 05' had serious meetings with Gingrich on Healthcare and some other issues and he plan today does include many of the ideas that the 2 of them along with Patrick Kennedy came up with. Hillary also supported the Iraq war until May of 07' when she began to need more of the party base to win the nomination. Just remember, a lot of the intel used by Bush was also used by Clinton and Gore who also claimed in the late 90's that Saddam had WMD. Saddam in affect played a game of chicken in selling the idea of WMD potential to hold the Shia' and Iranians at bay but Clinton never had the real meat to go in full bore after Saddam. 9/11 as we know now proved a useful catalyst for this to happen and the rest is history as they say.
The grim truth is that the DLC and AEI are not as far apart as one might think. IMO they differ as much as Bud and Bud Lite at best and at times you really are drinking the same thing but sold the idea by a different label on the bottle that it is something else. Obama with so little record in Washington is yet unproven as to whether once in power he will play ball with the Washington powerbrokers or be the maverick many think McCain to be. There are even libertarians, Justin Raimondo of AntiWar.com http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12475 who has come out partly tongue-n-cheek/partly serious backing Obama (this must be one of the 3 times AV was right when he said not all libertarians are alike!) and it's a percieved disconnect from the normal channels of Washington power that has folks like Justin hopeful that Obama really is a "wrench in the gears" to the cause of American empire.
As Justin also pointed out in his piece linked above Hillary and Joe Liberman have nearly identical voting records and had I before that statement said that McCain and Joe Liberman vote alike, I'm certain there would have been a big amen here. Now if Joe votes like McCain and Hillary votes like Joe does that make Hillary a McCain Jr.? Or considering the reactions earlier when it was becoming clear that McCain was the GOP guy that prompted "Honeybabe" Coulter to exclaim she would vote for Hillary and "Rushie" to extoll on his radio show that he was a conservative not a republican suggesting in context that he may vote elsewhere come Nov. Funny how now he seems to be back toting the GOP water which makes one question just how principled this guy really is IMO. Radio, it's called entertainment and entertainment is made up of actors which are people in character pretending to be something that they really are not.
McCain and Hillary are longtime inside the beltway people and they know how the game works and who butters the bread. It's outside the beltway that the myth must be advanced to the masses and Babygirl Coulter almost blew the whole thing wide open with her McCain tirade. She seems to me to have been quite on that subject since and of course Rushie and the "Baby Jesus" have heeled to the GOP show walkers also.
Obama however is a whole other question and who BTW was it that dug up the whole Rev. Wright stuff to begin with? The Clinton camp! They're the one's dishing out the dirt and IMO it has been Hillbaby and friends not the repubs trying to paint Obama as extreme left as they can. Now some of the hardcore liberal types in the democrat party behind Obama are fighting back by pointing out all the lies of Hillbaby. But where is the DLC and even the DNC leadership in this "dishing out dirt" contest? I honestly believe that the party power brokers want Hillary to win and thus are standing on the sidelines hoping these Obama attackes stick and the total popular vote numbers for Hillary exceed Obama's at the end of the day so the Superdelegates can have excuse for coronating Hillary after all as it was planned. Maybe Rush and Baby Jesus, if guilty of anything, knows the longer this continues, it's fantastic material for their shows so maybe on that front they stand guilty.
So in the end I can see some of Hillbaby's supporters going over to McCain since politically, socially and economically, his policy is nearly identical to theirs when compared to Obama. The republicans for the most part as a whole have accepted the myth of lesser evils so that part is secure for McCain. I appreciate your idealism of party loyality based on belief of cause but I think you also have bought to some extent the "lesser of 2 evils" line when in reality the clear difference is McCain/Hillary on one side and as for now it would appear Obama on the other. When it comes to "wrench in the gears" of empire, I'm not as open minded as Justin because I think all that campaign money coupled with Obama's real record suggests he's learning to play the game fast.
That one party over the other idealism based on real principle is IMO dead and has been as these power cats are way, way beyond that and hoping you and I never awake from our slumber. I often have a hardtime wondering if the sci-fi movie "They Live" was a bad portrayal of the American 2 party system or that America has become a portrayal of a bad sci-fi movie!
Speaking of Sci-fi RIP Charlton Heston (Solent Green, Planet of the Apes) Thanks Taylor!
Be interesting to see if after the smoke clears and the LP picks a candidate and if Barr and Gravel or visa versa finish 1/2 if they will tagteam together for the general election?
D,
I take it you've been listening or have been hearing of Rush's promotion (Operation --------, sorry I forgot the name) he's been playing with on the radio. Rush is no dumbie in respect to playing around in this type of arena and if in fact is was a true, concerted effort of a serious nature, he could find himself run amuck of the law. He's smart enough and thus why he laughs because I'll willing to bet that not only has he consulted lawyers but has maintained a good file of pre-broadcast meetings where program content is discussed and the real intent of this whole thing is a play off of the myth that he dells out marching orders to the minions for the GOP. I'm sure there are a few dittoheads who might follow his supposed advice but in most primaries you also have important downstream elections such as Congress or State/Local that are to hard to give up. Now I can see the McCain camp doing this as I've seen this done before myself but I personally think Rush is using a bit of satire and play on myth for it's pure entertainment value. JMO however.
As for Hillary supporters crossing to McCain in the general? I disagree as I can see that. From the standpoint of voting record, she and McCain are really a lot more alike and Obama is more across the isle from them. Remember, Hillary in 05' had serious meetings with Gingrich on Healthcare and some other issues and he plan today does include many of the ideas that the 2 of them along with Patrick Kennedy came up with. Hillary also supported the Iraq war until May of 07' when she began to need more of the party base to win the nomination. Just remember, a lot of the intel used by Bush was also used by Clinton and Gore who also claimed in the late 90's that Saddam had WMD. Saddam in affect played a game of chicken in selling the idea of WMD potential to hold the Shia' and Iranians at bay but Clinton never had the real meat to go in full bore after Saddam. 9/11 as we know now proved a useful catalyst for this to happen and the rest is history as they say.
The grim truth is that the DLC and AEI are not as far apart as one might think. IMO they differ as much as Bud and Bud Lite at best and at times you really are drinking the same thing but sold the idea by a different label on the bottle that it is something else. Obama with so little record in Washington is yet unproven as to whether once in power he will play ball with the Washington powerbrokers or be the maverick many think McCain to be. There are even libertarians, Justin Raimondo of AntiWar.com http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12475 who has come out partly tongue-n-cheek/partly serious backing Obama (this must be one of the 3 times AV was right when he said not all libertarians are alike!
) and it's a percieved disconnect from the normal channels of Washington power that has folks like Justin hopeful that Obama really is a "wrench in the gears" to the cause of American empire.As Justin also pointed out in his piece linked above Hillary and Joe Liberman have nearly identical voting records and had I before that statement said that McCain and Joe Liberman vote alike, I'm certain there would have been a big amen here. Now if Joe votes like McCain and Hillary votes like Joe does that make Hillary a McCain Jr.? Or considering the reactions earlier when it was becoming clear that McCain was the GOP guy that prompted "Honeybabe" Coulter to exclaim she would vote for Hillary and "Rushie" to extoll on his radio show that he was a conservative not a republican suggesting in context that he may vote elsewhere come Nov. Funny how now he seems to be back toting the GOP water which makes one question just how principled this guy really is IMO. Radio, it's called entertainment and entertainment is made up of actors which are people in character pretending to be something that they really are not.
McCain and Hillary are longtime inside the beltway people and they know how the game works and who butters the bread. It's outside the beltway that the myth must be advanced to the masses and Babygirl Coulter almost blew the whole thing wide open with her McCain tirade. She seems to me to have been quite on that subject since and of course Rushie and the "Baby Jesus" have heeled to the GOP show walkers also.
Obama however is a whole other question and who BTW was it that dug up the whole Rev. Wright stuff to begin with? The Clinton camp! They're the one's dishing out the dirt and IMO it has been Hillbaby and friends not the repubs trying to paint Obama as extreme left as they can. Now some of the hardcore liberal types in the democrat party behind Obama are fighting back by pointing out all the lies of Hillbaby. But where is the DLC and even the DNC leadership in this "dishing out dirt" contest? I honestly believe that the party power brokers want Hillary to win and thus are standing on the sidelines hoping these Obama attackes stick and the total popular vote numbers for Hillary exceed Obama's at the end of the day so the Superdelegates can have excuse for coronating Hillary after all as it was planned. Maybe Rush and Baby Jesus, if guilty of anything, knows the longer this continues, it's fantastic material for their shows so maybe on that front they stand guilty.
So in the end I can see some of Hillbaby's supporters going over to McCain since politically, socially and economically, his policy is nearly identical to theirs when compared to Obama. The republicans for the most part as a whole have accepted the myth of lesser evils so that part is secure for McCain. I appreciate your idealism of party loyality based on belief of cause but I think you also have bought to some extent the "lesser of 2 evils" line when in reality the clear difference is McCain/Hillary on one side and as for now it would appear Obama on the other. When it comes to "wrench in the gears" of empire, I'm not as open minded as Justin because I think all that campaign money coupled with Obama's real record suggests he's learning to play the game fast.
That one party over the other idealism based on real principle is IMO dead and has been as these power cats are way, way beyond that and hoping you and I never awake from our slumber. I often have a hardtime wondering if the sci-fi movie "They Live" was a bad portrayal of the American 2 party system or that America has become a portrayal of a bad sci-fi movie!
Speaking of Sci-fi RIP Charlton Heston (Solent Green, Planet of the Apes) Thanks Taylor!
diesel96
Well-Known Member
wkmac said:
Obama and Clinton care about the same issues and have obviously worked together on a lot of legislation, whatever Sen. Clinton's campaign may imply. She is a frequent cosponsor on his bills, and he on hers. Although Clinton and Mcbush I mean McClain had voting similarities pre 2005, that is not the case three years later. I guess running for President flip-flops your outlook on life and issues, to retain some form of party popularity.
The 2008 Presidential Candidates on the Issues
- Support Roe v Wade-----McCain N Clinton Y Obama Y
- Support the Death Penalty-----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama Y
- No Child Left Behind----- McCain Y Clinton Y Obama undecided
- Embrionic Stem Cell Research-----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama Y
- Drilling in ANWAR----- McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Support Kyoto Treaty -----McCain N Clinton Y Obama Y
- Assault Weapons Ban -----McCain N Clinton Y Obama Y
- Gun Background Check -----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama Y
- Patriot Act -----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama Y
- Guantanamo-----McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Torture -----McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Wiretapping -----McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Border Fence -----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama Y
- Military Action Iran -----McCain Y Clinton Y Obama mixed
- Iraq War -----McCain Y Clinton Y to N Obama N
- Troop Surge -----McCain Y Clinton N Obama N
- Iraq Withdrawl -----McCain N Clinton phased Obama phased
- Minimum Wage increase -----McCain N Clinton Y Obama Y
- Same Sex Marriage -----McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Civil Unions -----McCain states' right Clinton Y Obama Y
- Constitutional Ban Same Sex -----McCain N Clinton N Obama N
- Universal Health Care -----McCain N Clinton Y Obama Y
Correlation among candidates:
McCain and Clinton agree on 13 issues
McCain and Obama agree on 11 issues
Clinton and Obama agree on 19 issues
McCain, Clinton, and Obama agree on 11 issues
Executive Summary: Analysis of Clinton, McCain, and Obama’s Voting Histories
Barack Obama is the least responsible of the three, missing 18% of his votes. Hillary is the most responsible, only missing 9% of her roll calls.
Clinton and Obama cast the same vote 92% of the time.
In 299 opportunities, McCain and Clinton voted the same almost half the time.
The three candidates were all present for the same roll call 191 times. 29% of the time they all voted the same way — either all for or all against the issue at hand.
Before 2005, McCain and Clinton voted the same 73% of the time. Since 2005, McCain’s voting record has changed dramatically.
Barack Obama and John McCain are 31% similar
Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are 94% similar
John McCain and Hillary Clinton are 47% similar
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