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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 784257" data-attributes="member: 2189">bbsam, Reading your comment above I thought you might enjoy or appreciate this <a href="http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/11/15/awlaki/index.html" target="_blank">Glenn Greenwald piece</a> over at Salon. I know I did. The great English jurist, judge William Blackstone, who authored the great 4 volume work, "Blackstone's Commentaries, Laws of England" on the common law system once said,   <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_formulation" target="_blank">see Blackstone Ratio</a> That quote and the abuses of European monarches of the past are at the heart of the ideal of American jurisprudence "presumed innocent until proven guilty" and yes, at times it is not easy to follow but if we let it fail, history is littered with the dead bodies of innocent individuals that will one day mark our own future. Even in our zeal of bloodlust in our domestic courts, we are finding mistakes and yes even mistakes at the ultimate level with capital punishment.  The old testament law in which most Americans in one way or another have some connection states that a life is only taken on the direct testimony of 2 to 3 witnesses. For those who proclaim no higher authority than God himself, that's a pretty huge hurdle no matter how you look at it. Yet, so many people who would proclaim themselves followers of such creed and dogma are in turn ascribing themselves power beyond what their god proclaimed in the first place. Thus, I wonder if the old admonition of "depart from me as I never knew you" might come into play for these folks one day? As an aside but on the lines of religion, I've been reading about the Cathars who were 12th century (and earlier)gnostics of southern France and although were called christian by some, were not in the orthodox sense of the term we think of. However, their gnostic if not herectical beliefs in terms of the established order ran them afoul of larger and more powerful forces and in the end they were slaughtered by the Roman church and northern french nobles who benefitted by the acquiring of more lands by state/military force and thus my historical interests. 1000's of Cathar men, women and children were slaughtered and the Cathers were in practice pacifists so it wasn't like it was a truly fair fight. Yet in the early 13th century Pope Innocent III ordered their destruction so we can condemn what we see today being done in the so-called name of religion but let's not forget that what we are seeing is in fact a direct reflection of our own past and the ole saying, the sins of the fathers will visit their sons. You reap what you sow? <img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/peaceful.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":peaceful:" title="Peaceful    :peaceful:" data-shortname=":peaceful:" /></blockquote>

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