396 meeting Sunday June 2, 2013

[Hawfuh Sux]

You hit him where the sun don't shine!

 

[Mostly Brown]

Show it to us. Not a flyer, show us a document with the enhancements to the entire c6 plan.

Andy M HIMSELF at the contract meetings has said that the "enhancements" are ONLY for the 10 locals in the southwest and local 177. If YOU can prove otherwise other than post a flyer handed out by a business agent, then i'd like to see it.

Shouldnt be that hard for you. YOU, presumably had to read that somewhere, I hope, and your not relying on third hand information.

Peace

TOS

TOS...this is an easy one to prove. Look at "National Master United Parcel Service Agreement" that was in our ballot envelope. This is as close to a document as anyone can produce. Go to page 16 and look at Section 2. This spells out the "CSH&W Fund. Now go to page 17 and read Section 3, 4 and 5. Pay attention to Section 5. It spells out the "Substitute Health Plan" which Andy M was referring to as the "Carved Out Plan". This is all in Article 34

Now go to your "Western Region Supplemental Agreement" and your "Southwest Package Rider supplemental Agreement" These will both refer you back to the MASTER AGREEMENT Article 34.

You are wrong....everybody gets the "Enhanced" plan. and that's the plan in front of us we have to vote on. 396's future is riding on whether they can successfully "carve out" a plan for the Southwest. If they don't....they are gone. If they do....they can say they got what they wanted.

You see folks .....TOS has been diagnosed with "Confirmation Bias". You can explain the diagnoses to him but he will not understand or agree. That's also a symptom of "Confirmation Bias" Click here to better understand TOS's problem.

 

[104Feeder]

Show me a document that only gives "enhancements" to the West and L177. On one hand you believe what you claim Andy M said and in other posts you rip Marshall. Which way is it?
I don't believe the GST is just a BA with a flyer. hall sent the side by side C-6 to every UPS local. Why would he do that if enhancements were only going to a few? Our PO forwarded that e-mail to stewards. Maybe that's third hand to you but then what is everything you post? I'll trust the e-mail from hall over a rendition of a mtg from TOS.
I'll generously believe you're confusing the allowance for L177 and the SW to craft a comparable plan as an "enhancement".

Yeah you've got a rude awakening coming. It's right there in the Memorandum of Understanding, Page 27. Section 2 specifically states that the Enhancements will be made in the C6 plan only for those first being covered by that plan as of Jan 1st 2014. If you are in C6 now, you are just getting slightly better prescription benefits as previously stated. It goes on from there. All of this has to do with Maintenance of Benefits clauses that the West and NJ never bargained away. The comparable plan is a completely separate concept that may or may not come to fruition. Also that flyer that has the UPS plan compared (for us anyway in 104) is the PT UPS plan not what our friend/T are getting. Many of the costs are doubled from that plan ($5 copay vs. $10, $2.50 copay prescriptions generic or brand name vs. $5 copay brand, $0 generic) so it's even worse what we are giving up for the "Enhancements".

So in a nutshell it's like this:

In C6 now? You will get no Enhancements, just slight increase in prescription drug benefits etc.

In UPS now, C6 as of Jan 1st 2014? You get the $629 million in Enhancements
​
Comparable plan? If it happens, only available in the West and NJ, areas that had Maintenance of Benefit clauses.

 

[The Other Side]

Yeah you've got a rude awakening coming. It's right there in the Memorandum of Understanding, Page 27. Section 2 specifically states that the Enhancements will be made in the C6 plan only for those first being covered by that plan as of Jan 1st 2014. If you are in C6 now, you are just getting slightly better prescription benefits as previously stated. It goes on from there. All of this has to do with Maintenance of Benefits clauses that the West and NJ never bargained away. The comparable plan is a completely separate concept that may or may not come to fruition. Also that flyer that has the UPS plan compared (for us anyway in 104) is the PT UPS plan not what our friend/T are getting. Many of the costs are doubled from that plan ($5 copay vs. $10, $2.50 copay prescriptions generic or brand name vs. $5 copay brand, $0 generic) so it's even worse what we are giving up for the "Enhancements".

So in a nutshell it's like this:

In C6 now? You will get no Enhancements, just slight increase in prescription drug benefits etc.

In UPS now, C6 as of Jan 1st 2014? You get the $629 million in Enhancements
​
Comparable plan? If it happens, only available in the West and NJ, areas that had Maintenance of Benefit clauses.

Well explained.

Peace

TOS

 

[Hawfuh Sux]

TOS...this is an easy one to prove. Look at "National Master United Parcel Service Agreement" that was in our ballot envelope. This is as close to a document as anyone can produce. Go to page 16 and look at Section 2. This spells out the "CSH&W Fund. Now go to page 17 and read Section 3, 4 and 5. Pay attention to Section 5. It spells out the "Substitute Health Plan" which Andy M was referring to as the "Carved Out Plan". This is all in Article 34

Now go to your "Western Region Supplemental Agreement" and your "Southwest Package Rider supplemental Agreement" These will both refer you back to the MASTER AGREEMENT Article 34.

You are wrong....everybody gets the "Enhanced" plan. and that's the plan in front of us we have to vote on. 396's future is riding on whether they can successfully "carve out" a plan for the Southwest. If they don't....they are gone. If they do....they can say they got what they wanted.

You see folks .....TOS has been diagnosed with "Confirmation Bias". You can explain the diagnoses to him but he will not understand or agree. That's also a symptom of "Confirmation Bias" Click here to better understand TOS's problem.

Andy M has no credibility!

 

[Inthegame]

How about this: for employees currently with UNION health care:
(a)
Part-time and full-time employees covered by a Teamster Health and Welfare Fund will continue to be covered by those funds.

For employees currently with UPS health care:

(a)


(b) Notwithstanding any provision in any Supplement, Rider or Addendum Section 1(d) above, effective January 1, 200814 health and welfare coverage for all full-time and part-time employees on the payroll at that time and those hired thereafter who would have had health and welfare coverage provided by an Employer signatory to this Agreement will instead be provided coverage through the CSH&W Fund regardless of the employee’s work location.

This is right out of the TA. Haven't you read it?
Your problem is you believed your B.A. and you believed Hoffa and Hall. Don't do that.

Thank you for posting the language in the TA that verifies my position. Every employee (not just L177 and the West) covered by UPS insurance currently will be moved to the CS C-6 "enhanced" plan.

 

[Inthegame]

Yeah you've got a rude awakening coming. It's right there in the Memorandum of Understanding, Page 27. Section 2 specifically states that the Enhancements will be made in the C6 plan only for those first being covered by that plan as of Jan 1st 2014. If you are in C6 now, you are just getting slightly better prescription benefits as previously stated. It goes on from there. All of this has to do with Maintenance of Benefits clauses that the West and NJ never bargained away. The comparable plan is a completely separate concept that may or may not come to fruition. Also that flyer that has the UPS plan compared (for us anyway in 104) is the PT UPS plan not what our friend/T are getting. Many of the costs are doubled from that plan ($5 copay vs. $10, $2.50 copay prescriptions generic or brand name vs. $5 copay brand, $0 generic) so it's even worse what we are giving up for the "Enhancements".

So in a nutshell it's like this:

In C6 now? You will get no Enhancements, just slight increase in prescription drug benefits etc.

In UPS now, C6 as of Jan 1st 2014? You get the $629 million in Enhancements
​
Comparable plan? If it happens, only available in the West and NJ, areas that had Maintenance of Benefit clauses.

Exactly as I understand the TA. I apologize my post wasn't more clear as I should have said, "hall sent the side by side C-6 to every UPS local with participants moving from the UPS plan. I was merely contesting the point that the enhanced plan would be available only to L177 and the West. I fully agree with TOS that you've explained this very well. Thanks.

 

[The Other Side]

TOS...this is an easy one to prove. Look at "National Master United Parcel Service Agreement" that was in our ballot envelope. This is as close to a document as anyone can produce. Go to page 16 and look at Section 2. This spells out the "CSH&W Fund. Now go to page 17 and read Section 3, 4 and 5. Pay attention to Section 5. It spells out the "Substitute Health Plan" which Andy M was referring to as the "Carved Out Plan". This is all in Article 34

Now go to your "Western Region Supplemental Agreement" and your "Southwest Package Rider supplemental Agreement" These will both refer you back to the MASTER AGREEMENT Article 34.

You are wrong....everybody gets the "Enhanced" plan. and that's the plan in front of us we have to vote on. 396's future is riding on whether they can successfully "carve out" a plan for the Southwest. If they don't....they are gone. If they do....they can say they got what they wanted.

You see folks .....TOS has been diagnosed with "Confirmation Bias". You can explain the diagnoses to him but he will not understand or agree. That's also a symptom of "Confirmation Bias" Click here to better understand TOS's problem.

I think that your overzealous attempt to understand contractual language has gotten the best of you. Your post speaks for itself.

Peace

TOS

 

[104Feeder]

Exactly as I understand the TA. I apologize my post wasn't more clear as I should have said, "hall sent the side by side C-6 to every UPS local with participants moving from the UPS plan. I was merely contesting the point that the enhanced plan would natiobe available only to L177 and the West. I fully agree with TOS that you've explained this very well. Thanks.

You still aren't getting it, NO "Enhanced" C6 plan for anyone but the West & NJ which is Local 177 I presume. The side by side is the current P/T UPS national plan. If you are in C6 now you arent getting the $629 million in enhancements. Its only for those moving to CSH&W Jan 1st 2014.
Everyone will be in CSH&W by 2014 unless we carve out a better plan for the West & NJ but that won't be the same for all. UPS is paying for better benefits for those areas with Maintenance of Benefits clauses only, which is the West & NJ. I don't know how many other ways I can say it. Read the memorandum on page 27

 

[Inthegame]

You still aren't getting it, NO "Enhanced" C6 plan for anyone but the West & NJ which is Local 177 I presume.WRONG The side by side is the current P/T UPS national plan. If you are in C6 now you arent getting the $629 million in enhancements. Its only for those moving to CSH&W Jan 1st 2014. RIGHT
Everyone will be in CSH&W by 2014 unless we carve out a better plan for the West & NJ but that won't be the same for all. UPS is paying for better benefits for those areas with Maintenance of Benefits clauses only, which is the West & NJ.WRONG I don't know how many other ways I can say it. Read the memorandum on page 27

I get it just fine. I understand those already in CS C-6 won't get the enhancements those first moving into C-6 will get. But you're not reading right either if you think only the West and L177 get "enhanced". Read the first MOU on pg 27 prior to the MOU that gives L177 and the Western Conf Neg committee time to develop or find a plan equal or superior to "enhanced C-6". Sub (1) clarifys C-6 as the base for ALL UPS employees in CS. Sub (2) clearly gives enhancements to ALL employees first moving into C-6 on Jan 1, 2014, which could include the West and L177. Nowhere is there any reference to exclusivity to L177 and the West. The MOB of Art 34 survives for TEAMSTER plans in the West which dictates allocation of the negotiated contribution increases.
Have you seen the regular C-6 benefit pkg? The side by side is markedly better, therefore "enhanced". That said, the regular C-6 is the best plan offered currently in CS H&W.

 

[104Feeder]

I get it just fine. I understand those already in CS C-6 won't get the enhancements those first moving into C-6 will get. But you're not reading right either if you think only the West and L177 get "enhanced". Read the first MOU on pg 27 prior to the MOU that gives L177 and the Western Conf Neg committee time to develop or find a plan equal or superior to "enhanced C-6". Sub (1) clarifys C-6 as the base for ALL UPS employees in CS. Sub (2) clearly gives enhancements to ALL employees first moving into C-6 on Jan 1, 2014, which could include the West and L177. Nowhere is there any reference to exclusivity to L177 and the West. The MOB of Art 34 survives for TEAMSTER plans in the West which dictates allocation of the negotiated contribution increases.
Have you seen the regular C-6 benefit pkg? The side by side is markedly better, therefore "enhanced". That said, the regular C-6 is the best plan offered currently in CS H&W.

Dude, that is the West & 177 moving into the CSH&W, and that is the MOU that I am referring to. You're seeing what isn't there. If you are in CS H&W now, you will not be getting the "enhanced" plan. The modest improvements in C6 are not the same enhancements we are getting & it's substantially worse than what we have now. That Sec 2 refers to phased in deductible, and ours is $50/$100 in 2014, $100/$200 in 2015, $150/$300 in 2016 and $200/$400 in 2017 (up from $0 now). Our co-pays are $10 up from $5 and supposedly less than what CS H&W participants pay now. Right on our chart is says "Dental Benefits will remain the same as the current UPS benefit. UPS will pay the for the difference of the C6 Dental Benefit and the UPS benefit" (no annual max, 100% coverage vs. 80% etc), which is again showing you that everyone else is not getting the Enhancements. Also STD is remaining the same, which is 60% of weekly base pay up to $500/wk for 26 weeks vs. $300/week for 10 weeks then $350 for 16 weeks. Also the life insurance is remaining the same, which is 2080xHourly Rate max of $100K FT, 1040xHourly Rate max $100k PT vs $40k max life, AD&D for C6.
You're going to be sorely disappointed if you think you will be getting C6 Enhanced if this Contract passes. It was specifically said during our meeting that the extra money was only going to the West & NJ (who have MOB) to try and make it easier to swallow. Separately it was said that people already in CS H&W were getting slightly improved prescription benefits. Perhaps the confusion is that some areas were under C1 or C2 or something and they are now moving to C6 which is why it's being stated in Sec 1 that this is now the base benefit. This is why our Local said it will probably pass because we are the only ones getting screwed. We're not trying to mislead you or make it sound worse than it is, because it's only bad for us. There is a lot of other good language in that TA that made me lean "yes" for a long time but this healthcare mess is worth the risk to vote "NO".

 

[The Other Side]

Dude, that is the West & 177 moving into the CSH&W, and that is the MOU that I am referring to. You're seeing what isn't there. If you are in CS H&W now, you will not be getting the "enhanced" plan. The modest improvements in C6 are not the same enhancements we are getting & it's substantially worse than what we have now. That Sec 2 refers to phased in deductible, and ours is $50/$100 in 2014, $100/$200 in 2015, $150/$300 in 2016 and $200/$400 in 2017 (up from $0 now). Our co-pays are $10 up from $5 and supposedly less than what CS H&W participants pay now. Right on our chart is says "Dental Benefits will remain the same as the current UPS benefit. UPS will pay the for the difference of the C6 Dental Benefit and the UPS benefit" (no annual max, 100% coverage vs. 80% etc), which is again showing you that everyone else is not getting the Enhancements. Also STD is remaining the same, which is 60% of weekly base pay up to $500/wk for 26 weeks vs. $300/week for 10 weeks then $350 for 16 weeks. Also the life insurance is remaining the same, which is 2080xHourly Rate max of $100K FT, 1040xHourly Rate max $100k PT vs $40k max life, AD&D for C6.
You're going to be sorely disappointed if you think you will be getting C6 Enhanced if this Contract passes. It was specifically said during our meeting that the extra money was only going to the West & NJ (who have MOB) to try and make it easier to swallow. Separately it was said that people already in CS H&W were getting slightly improved prescription benefits. Perhaps the confusion is that some areas were under C1 or C2 or something and they are now moving to C6 which is why it's being stated in Sec 1 that this is now the base benefit. This is why our Local said it will probably pass because we are the only ones getting screwed. We're not trying to mislead you or make it sound worse than it is, because it's only bad for us. There is a lot of other good language in that TA that made me lean "yes" for a long time but this healthcare mess is worth the risk to vote "NO".

Again, Kudos for another, well thought out opinion based upon "objective" data. Yes or No, your vote is well spent considering the "thought" you have put into it.

I applaud you.

Peace

TOS

 

[Inthegame]

Dude, that is the West & 177 moving into the CSH&W, and that is the MOU that I am referring to. You're seeing what isn't there. If you are in CS H&W now, you will not be getting the "enhanced" plan. The modest improvements in C6 are not the same enhancements we are getting & it's substantially worse than what we have now. That Sec 2 refers to phased in deductible, and ours is $50/$100 in 2014, $100/$200 in 2015, $150/$300 in 2016 and $200/$400 in 2017 (up from $0 now). Our co-pays are $10 up from $5 and supposedly less than what CS H&W participants pay now. Right on our chart is says "Dental Benefits will remain the same as the current UPS benefit. UPS will pay the for the difference of the C6 Dental Benefit and the UPS benefit" (no annual max, 100% coverage vs. 80% etc), which is again showing you that everyone else is not getting the Enhancements. Also STD is remaining the same, which is 60% of weekly base pay up to $500/wk for 26 weeks vs. $300/week for 10 weeks then $350 for 16 weeks. Also the life insurance is remaining the same, which is 2080xHourly Rate max of $100K FT, 1040xHourly Rate max $100k PT vs $40k max life, AD&D for C6.
You're going to be sorely disappointed if you think you will be getting C6 Enhanced if this Contract passes. It was specifically said during our meeting that the extra money was only going to the West & NJ (who have MOB) to try and make it easier to swallow. Separately it was said that people already in CS H&W were getting slightly improved prescription benefits. Perhaps the confusion is that some areas were under C1 or C2 or something and they are now moving to C6 which is why it's being stated in Sec 1 that this is now the base benefit. This is why our Local said it will probably pass because we are the only ones getting screwed. We're not trying to mislead you or make it sound worse than it is, because it's only bad for us. There is a lot of other good language in that TA that made me lean "yes" for a long time but this healthcare mess is worth the risk to vote "NO".

You're repeating what I'm posting and then saying I don't get it. This is getting circular. Why has the IBT sent the exact terms you've listed to UPS locals nationwide as a side by side of the existing UPS plan compared with the proposed CS ENHANCED C-6 plan if this isn't available nationwide, which the MOU says will be available? The regular C-6(base) is less than the plan offered, therefore this offered plan is "enhanced". Anyway you believe what you want but I'm not going to be sorely disappointed at all because my Teamster Plan isn't changing a bit.

 

[The Other Side]

You're repeating what I'm posting and then saying I don't get it. This is getting circular. Why has the IBT sent the exact terms you've listed to UPS locals nationwide as a side by side of the existing UPS plan compared with the proposed CS ENHANCED C-6 plan if this isn't available nationwide, which the MOU says will be available? The regular C-6(base) is less than the plan offered, therefore this offered plan is "enhanced". Anyway you believe what you want but I'm not going to be sorely disappointed at all because my Teamster Plan isn't changing a bit.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

Peace

TOS

 

[realbrown1]

I don't understand what all the confusion is about. It is really simple if you look at the TA and the MOU.
First, only people who are currently covered with UPS health insurance now, will get the new enhanced C-6 TEAMCARE.
Second, only the west and 177 have permission to try and not go on TEAMCARE and carve out their own new health care program.

 

[The Other Side]

I don't understand what all the confusion is about. It is really simple if you look at the TA and the MOU.
First, only people who are currently covered with UPS health insurance now, will get the new enhanced C-6 TEAMCARE.
Second, only the west and 177 have permission to try and not go on TEAMCARE and carve out their own new health care program.

Correct!

Brother Marshall may have attempted to bluster about his efforts at both 396 and the 952 meetings, but we all know the truth, were stuck with the enhanced C6 plan, but for how long is the real question.

Unfortunately, time is the only thing holding us back from finding out that question today.

Peace

TOS

 

[Hawfuh Sux]

Andy M has no credibility!

 

[Inthegame]

I don't understand what all the confusion is about. It is really simple if you look at the TA and the MOU.
First, only people who are currently covered with UPS health insurance now, will get the new enhanced C-6 TEAMCARE.
Second, only the west and 177 have permission to try and not go on TEAMCARE and carve out their own new health care program.

Not often we agree but this is exactly what I believe I said.

 

[Inthegame]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

Peace

TOS

And you can lead some to the truth, but you can't make them think.

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

Just keep the number 16 in mind.

It will make sense soon. I will remind you and a few others of the numer 16 four to five times a week.

Bye to all, it has been nice, but as you all allow and approve of his type of poster and others, adios to all.

Necro

Yes it was.and thankyou!!!!!!!!!!!