Arizona's anti-imigration law...

[Just_another_day_at_work]

I've heard illegal immigration has declined as a result of the poor economy. Damn, Obama gives you what you want and you still can't give the guy a break!

But then you never were specific about how a goal would be accomplished either or did you really care as long as they were gone?



But then why use the truth when fiction works so much better.

Did anyone ever consider that we stole the land by force and conquest and so-called illegal immigration is just nothing more than counter-attack? And I think they are winning too. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

He said it's not about his re-election... That part now I tend to believe

 

[UPS Lifer]

Well, didn't we?

I am not sure but I would be willing to bet that there is nowhere in the world that has not been conquered at some point in time.... Accept maybe Antarctica ??

Using the word stole implies we should feel guilty. There is nothing wrong with being a compassionate society but NOT OUT OF SOME SORT OF GUILT!

I guess my point to all of this political stuff is that we are a land of laws. I am a believer in following those laws, even the ones I don't like. I don't have a right to pick and choose which ones to obey or not to obey. Neither does the President. That is why an illegal is illegal. We need to close the borders first and change the laws. Using common sense, we cannot deport 15 or 20 million people. Close the border and start working on changing the laws to reflect a fair and equitable path to citizenship. If a non-citizen decides to break our laws, they get deported. If they decide to be a burden on society, they get deported. I don't care if the non-citizen is the so-called breadwinner. If they break the law, they are gone. They can take their whole family back with them. That is the risk of coming to a country illegally and not being a productive member of society.

Also, it should begin by learning English. My tax $$ should not go to hundreds of different translations especially when you are in the voting booth.

 

[bbsam]

Lifer--
I respectfully disagree.
There are times when some laws should not be followed. There was a time when "Separate but Equal" was the law of the land and any suggestion that blacks could have persevered in any way but civil disobedience is suspect considering the racial history between the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil Rights movement.

As far as the president not enforcing the law, that is withing the perview of the executive branch. Same thing happens with tax policy from administration to administration. Usually under republican administrations IRS tax audits drop off, EPA enforcement drops off, etc. Considering the record deportations, one would have a hard time saying that Obama has really been all that soft on immigration. The mini "Dream Act" announced by the president, while having some real effect, is more a political move to drive a nail into the coffin of the republican hopes to get Latino support, a coffin the party has been far to eager to climb into itself. Yes. It's political. Newsflash! It's an election year for the highest post in the land if not the world. Politics may be dirty, but it is real.

All in all, immigration is not a hard problem to solve. It is expensive though. A massive fence and constant patrols should run hundreds of billions of dollars--if politicians wanted to. What's wrong with putting a comprehensive plan in place? Why do we have to "close the border first"? I believe it is because neither of the parties really wants it closed, much like neither party wanted campaign finance reform and so McCain/Feingold was a toothless wonder of a bill.

 

[Jones]

"Close the border" is the new "tort reform", a magical fix for all our troubles that no one can seem to figure out how to do.

 

[bbsam]

"Close the border" is the new "tort reform", a magical fix for all our troubles that no one can seem to figure out how to do.

Do you believe that they want to "figure out" how to do it?

 

[Jones]

Do you believe that they want to "figure out" how to do it?

Nope.

 

[wkmac]

I am not sure but I would be willing to bet that there is nowhere in the world that has not been conquered at some point in time.... Accept maybe Antarctica ??

Using the word stole implies we should feel guilty. There is nothing wrong with being a compassionate society but NOT OUT OF SOME SORT OF GUILT!

I guess my point to all of this political stuff is that we are a land of laws. I am a believer in following those laws, even the ones I don't like. I don't have a right to pick and choose which ones to obey or not to obey. Neither does the President. That is why an illegal is illegal. We need to close the borders first and change the laws. Using common sense, we cannot deport 15 or 20 million people. Close the border and start working on changing the laws to reflect a fair and equitable path to citizenship. If a non-citizen decides to break our laws, they get deported. If they decide to be a burden on society, they get deported. I don't care if the non-citizen is the so-called breadwinner. If they break the law, they are gone. They can take their whole family back with them. That is the risk of coming to a country illegally and not being a productive member of society.

Also, it should begin by learning English. My tax $$ should not go to hundreds of different translations especially when you are in the voting booth.

A mafia boss comes into a neighborhood and declares the area his. He then establishes borders and no one can enter those borders without his blessing. He then establishes a protection force and services force (of which many people actually benefit) over his territory while at the same time instituting a pricing structure from which all within the prescribed area must pay or else.

Yet, we typically find the mafia boss as immoral and distasteful but why? Why is the actions of a mafia boss any different from a group of people, a majority if you will, who in the name of democracy and the greater good do the exact same thing?

And one other point and I'll leave it at that. In all this rambling and back and forth about illegal immigration, has anyone ever asked the question(s), why would a people who've lived in an area for 100's if not maybe 1000's of years all of a sudden uproot and travel upwards of 1000's of miles just to work a menial job with low pay and typically no benefits? What root cause would be at the heart of this? What if the root cause was America itself?

Hmmmmmmm!

 

[UPS Lifer]

"Close the border" is the new "tort reform", a magical fix for all our troubles that no one can seem to figure out how to do.

Nope.

I don't understand the "tort reform" reference and I don't think that closing the border is a "magical fix". I do believe it can be done. BUT I will go so far as to agree with you that no one has figured it out. The main reason is that closing the border is political suicide. I don't advocate building a complete fence. There are spots you probably have to have one because of population growth on both sides, and safety factors because of drug cartels. Costs do play a BIG part but what is the cost of having a border that can easily be crossed by anyone.

We now have 15 to 20 million extra people since Reagan allowed amnesty. I guess we didn't see the flood of people that thought that was a green light to invade our country.

Because of my UPS background, I always have had to come up with solutions to problems. They were not always the best solutions but they helped to mold solutions that worked.

I think patrols or the ability to have security with a relatively quick response time is importance to deterrence.

Why not establish outposts for our National Guard teams with proximity to the borders for border states. Patrolling the border becomes part of their duty. We could extend these posts to army patrols also. Our Defense budget should have more money allocated for border security.

 

[moreluck]

There are already patrols on the border, but their orders are to run & hide if faced with armed aliens and then throw things.

Who the "friend" are we ??? France ???

 

[wkmac]

I don't understand the "tort reform" reference and I don't think that closing the border is a "magical fix". I do believe it can be done. BUT I will go so far as to agree with you that no one has figured it out. The main reason is that closing the border is political suicide. I don't advocate building a complete fence. There are spots you probably have to have one because of population growth on both sides, and safety factors because of drug cartels. Costs do play a BIG part but what is the cost of having a border that can easily be crossed by anyone.

We now have 15 to 20 million extra people since Reagan allowed amnesty. I guess we didn't see the flood of people that thought that was a green light to invade our country.

Because of my UPS background, I always have had to come up with solutions to problems. They were not always the best solutions but they helped to mold solutions that worked.

I think patrols or the ability to have security with a relatively quick response time is importance to deterrence.

Why not establish outposts for our National Guard teams with proximity to the borders for border states. Patrolling the border becomes part of their duty. We could extend these posts to army patrols also. Our Defense budget should have more money allocated for border security.

Lifer,

Why is illegal immigration such a topic to begin with? Data seems to support that net immigration has fallen to zero and more evidence supports illegal immigration is in decline. Seems more to me that this issue is driven into irrational fear and hysteria not on fact but for political gain.

 

[moreluck]

Lifer,

Why is illegal immigration such a topic to begin with? Data seems to support that net immigration has fallen to zero and more evidence supports illegal immigration is in decline. Seems more to me that this issue is driven into irrational fear and hysteria not on fact but for political gain.

Apparently the ones who left weren't the ones getting gov't handouts. It's not irrational fear when your state coffers are down billions of $$ because we give welfare to people who are here illegally.....to the point of bankrupting our own state!!
It's fear, but not irrational.

 

[wkmac]

Apparently the ones who left weren't the ones getting gov't handouts. It's not irrational fear when your state coffers are down billions of $$ because we give welfare to people who are here illegally.....to the point of bankrupting our own state!!
It's fear, but not irrational.

OK, so you are among the many who claim you need gov't, you vote for gov't and you offer all support of gov't. Yet, you are saying that gov't is now acting against your interest. Seems to me the root problem to this is not the illegal alien who has no voice but rather the root of the problem is you and your fellow voters!

Oh wait, you'll say the illegal is now illegally voting? Better check the facts before you drag that fallacy out.

 

[moreluck]

Simply stated.......a U.S. school near the border (TX). A yellow bus comes in at lunch time full of kids , (Mexican citizens) and they file into the school's lunchroom, eat lunch, board the bus and go home.

Our taxes pay for that.

Nobody illegal would be voting if voter ID was required........they already have to submit several things to get welfare, so don't use the excuse they can't get an ID.

 

[wkmac]

Simply stated.......a U.S. school near the border (TX). A yellow bus comes in at lunch time full of kids , (Mexican citizens) and they file into the school's lunchroom, eat lunch, board the bus and go home.

Our taxes pay for that.

Nobody illegal would be voting if voter ID was required........they already have to submit several things to get welfare, so don't use the excuse they can't get an ID.

You still don't have the whole story right. Try again. Better yet, instead of taking some nonsense at face value, did you goggle search and find the whole story from the 4/29/2007 Houston Chronicle? Of course not. Far better to just let SleazelZippers et al tell you what to think and too your credit you are a loyal automaton.

And make note that 2007' was during the Bush administration but I'll concede Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House so that makes it the democrats fault. Is that how that logic flows?

 

[moreluck]

You still don't have the whole story right. Try again. Better yet, instead of taking some nonsense at face value, did you goggle search and find the whole story from the 4/29/2007 Houston Chronicle? Of course not. Far better to just let SleazelZippers et al tell you what to think and too your credit you are a loyal automaton.

And make note that 2007' was during the Bush administration but I'll concede Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House so that makes it the democrats fault. Is that how that logic flows?

The story is from friend Dan. C. , a teacher in Texas. We're not allowed to use last names. It isn't made up. He watched it happen day in and day out, Mon thru Friday.

I went to the gov't site for qualifying for welfare and got the list of stuff you need to get welfare......there was no weazel zipper involved. I posted the stuff you need under the welfare thread (I think)

So,like TOS you don't even accept the truth as true.........is that the definition of a cynic?

it was under "fraud"

in order to apply for welfare - identification, birth certificates for everyone in the family, marriage and divorce certificates, bank statements, life insurance statements, pay stubs, Social Security cards, health insurance cards and tax records.

 

[wkmac]

The story is from friend Dan. C. , a teacher in Texas. We're not allowed to use last names. It isn't made up. He watched it happen day in and day out, Mon thru Friday.

I went to the gov't site for qualifying for welfare and got the list of stuff you need to get welfare......there was no weazel zipper involved. I posted the stuff you need under the welfare thread (I think)

So,like TOS you don't even accept the truth as true.........is that the definition of a cynic?

it was under "fraud"

in order to apply for welfare - identification, birth certificates for everyone in the family, marriage and divorce certificates, bank statements, life insurance statements, pay stubs, Social Security cards, health insurance cards and tax records.

No but it sure defines someone who doesn't trust the source of the one who's making the claims!

 

[moreluck]

No but it sure defines someone who doesn't trust the source of the one who's making the claims!

I never asked you to trust anything I said........if you prove it wrong, then so be it. But just to say I got it from a source you don't care for is irresponsible.

 

[wkmac]

I never asked you to trust anything I said........if you prove it wrong, then so be it. But just to say I got it from a source you don't care for is irresponsible.

Maybe the source has just proven untrustworthy on several occasions and therefore is deserved to be questioned and even ridiculed. You just think it irresponsible because you've boxed yourself in with limited information sources from which you draw.

 

[moreluck]

I cetainly won't be wasting my time trying to read every newspaper that Ameica puts out.....as a matter of fact, I cut my paper down to Sunday's only for coupons and TV schedule.....that's all it's good for.
I am not going to mention again the 10 + sources that W.Z. pulls from....lots of legitimate news sources.

If a truck hits a tree and kills the people.....why do I care where the story comes from as long as it reports the truck hit the tree and people died?

 

[The Other Side]