Healthcare cost raised for the retired

[The Milkman]

Our healthcare was always administered by our local. When working, it was probably among the best plans. Thirty-four years, and two kids, I don't think we ever spent more than $100 a year on anything medical or dental.

It just wasn't carried on to retirees. We all knew it and accepted it.

Well at least you were aware of that when you retired you would have nothing. So your game plan was a lot different than mine with me knowing we had one

 

[10 point]

No, these rates are contractual. Not sure if a mass exodus is coming as I believe the average age of a UPS FT is around 47. I believe members will continue to retire as their personal situations allow. Nobody will go broke paying the retiree rates in this contract.

This contract is the issue. With the pension sinking in CS and the guarantee that the company supplement the deficit thru this contract I hear many that are 55 yrs of age talking about getting out by 07/31/16. I'm not sure if there's a lock on that guarantee after the next CBA is approved or if the company can renig on the issue (08-18 CBAs) but anyone who is close to retiring is talking about bailing out vs losing a substantial percentage of their pension by hanging on past 07/16.

It wasn't an insult. I expected someone who didn't know any better to ask a dumb question. I believe you are smarter than that and do know better. But from your response, you still don't seem to get it.

You are correct in the terminology. I was just trying to keep it simple in terms of insurance "premiums."

You are also correct in that UPS was responsible for ALL the claims.

I am going to assume that you understand that the bigger the "pool" (participants covered under a single plan) the cheaper the premium.

The main reason for this is not the negotiated discount for a huge pool. The main reason is that not everyone uses all the money paid on their behalf in premiums. Actually, the majority don't.

Insurance companies have to stay in business, and this is why they can afford to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for one person and still remain viable. They make money on most people.

There is a formula for the premiums based on many factors, including the size of the pool.

With a huge pool, UPS was able to pay all the claims with the money collected from the retirees and from the money not paid to the Teamsters (CSH&W) in premiums (negotiated contribution rates.)

They were able to keep the retirees at the $50/mo due to the huge pool of participants. You see, the retirees were included in this pool. They lost money on the retirees but made money on the actives. It all balanced out.

Now, lose 95% of the pool, leaving only the retirees. A few people at $50/mo is nowhere near enough money to pay all the claims.

So UPS has a choice. Start digging into their pockets, or raise the rates.

If it was your company, what would you do?

And UPS no longer wanted the insurance because it was an uncertain future. They could see themselves paying more in claims than the money saved by not paying the Teamsters a premium.

They weren't sure, but did not want to gamble on an unknown expense. They wanted to be able to forcast their expenses without any unknowns. A detriment of going public, having to appease the stockholders.

This covers my question about the burden of retirees.
Again, the guy that held the information meeting at our local about TeamCare in 2013 interjected the statement about "the grey hairs" (retirees) may no longer be covered after retirement one day.

I've come to see that often when the leadership is slightly saying something that they are seriously thinking about that issue. Just my observation.

 

[Bubblehead]

It wasn't an insult. I expected someone who didn't know any better to ask a dumb question. I believe you are smarter than that and do know better. But from your response, you still don't seem to get it.

You are correct in the terminology. I was just trying to keep it simple in terms of insurance "premiums."

You are also correct in that UPS was responsible for ALL the claims.

I am going to assume that you understand that the bigger the "pool" (participants covered under a single plan) the cheaper the premium.

The main reason for this is not the negotiated discount for a huge pool. The main reason is that not everyone uses all the money paid on their behalf in premiums. Actually, the majority don't.

Insurance companies have to stay in business, and this is why they can afford to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for one person and still remain viable. They make money on most people.

There is a formula for the premiums based on many factors, including the size of the pool.

With a huge pool, UPS was able to pay all the claims with the money collected from the retirees and from the money not paid to the Teamsters (CSH&W) in premiums (negotiated contribution rates.)

They were able to keep the retirees at the $50/mo due to the huge pool of participants. You see, the retirees were included in this pool. They lost money on the retirees but made money on the actives. It all balanced out.

Now, lose 95% of the pool, leaving only the retirees. A few people at $50/mo is nowhere near enough money to pay all the claims.

So UPS has a choice. Start digging into their pockets, or raise the rates.

If it was your company, what would you do?

And UPS no longer wanted the insurance because it was an uncertain future. They could see themselves paying more in claims than the money saved by not paying the Teamsters a premium.

They weren't sure, but did not want to gamble on an unknown expense. They wanted to be able to forcast their expenses without any unknowns. A detriment of going public, having to appease the stockholders.

...and there it is!!!

Precisely what I was getting at.

The retirees were sold down the river.

 

[brownmonster]

The biggest problem is our retirees are typically " early retirees".

 

[Mugarolla]

...and there it is!!!

Precisely what I was getting at.

The retirees were sold down the river.

A side effect of all the active participants in the UPS plan being forced into Teamcare leaving only a very small pool of retirees left in the UPS plan.

Yes, they are, and will, get screwed on their premiums thanks to H&H forcing everyone into Teamcare.

 

[bottomups]

The biggest problem is our retirees are typically " early retirees".

This is the major reason why our local has sweetened the pension to our retirees who stay until age 60 or later.

 

[brownmonster]

This is the major reason why our local has sweetened the pension to our retirees who stay until age 60 or later.

That wave of guys that left in their early 50s after 30 and 3 grand seems to be over.

 

[The Milkman]

That wave of guys that left in their early 50s after 30 and 3 grand seems to be over.

Depending on how old you start at UPS, Working to near 60 will just make it tougher on your body when you limp out the door. Your quality of life after work to me is more important than the money. Retiree healthcare will be a non issue because at 65 -67 most will go on SS. I left at 55, and I have seen many a member die before retirement and many have surgeries before (knees) and after retirement (hips). Today's drivers are blessed to have power steering, automatics, and lower steps (to name a few) to help them deal with the daily beating we took prior to those luxuries. Everyone will have to weigh at that time what is more important to them in their Golden Years..Despite many Comp injuries and surgeries I still made it out it in somewhat decent shape. We can't buy time after we leave, so the earlier the better choice was for me. One good thing we had going in our Local was senior drivers could transfer out off the road to work inside as porters, clerks, counter clerks, overgoods clerks, and car washers thus giving their bodies a break while they inched towards retirement. Although you took a pretty good pay rate cut it was still an alternative that many locals do not have, but should

 

[oldupsman]

That wave of guys that left in their early 50s after 30 and 3 grand seems to be over.

Which brings us full circle Brownie. I left at 55 with 32 full time years. But the only reason I felt comfortable
doing that is because my health care was $50 a month. You're going to see alot of guys stay much longer
and it won't be a pension issue as much as a health care issue. I'm sure quite a few will stay until 65 until
they hit Medicare. Don't be shocked if that number starts climbing too.

 

[oldupsman]

One good thing we had going in our Local was senior drivers could transfer out off the road to work inside as porters, clerks, counter clerks, overgoods clerks, and car washers thus giving their bodies a break while they inched towards retirement. Although you took a pretty good pay rate cut it was still an alternative that many locals do not have, but should

Another one of my pet peeves. This should have been a national issue for years. Totally ignored by the IBT forever.

 

[olroadbeech]

Depending on how old you start at UPS, Working to near 60 will just make it tougher on your body when you limp out the door. Your quality of life after work to me is more important than the money. Retiree healthcare will be a non issue because at 65 -67 most will go on SS. I left at 55, and I have seen many a member die before retirement and many have surgeries before (knees) and after retirement (hips). Today's drivers are blessed to have power steering, automatics, and lower steps (to name a few) to help them deal with the daily beating we took prior to those luxuries. Everyone will have to weigh at that time what is more important to them in their Golden Years..Despite many Comp injuries and surgeries I still made it out it in somewhat decent shape. We can't buy time after we leave, so the earlier the better choice was for me. One good thing we had going in our Local was senior drivers could transfer out off the road to work inside as porters, clerks, counter clerks, overgoods clerks, and car washers thus giving their bodies a break while they inched towards retirement. Although you took a pretty good pay rate cut it was still an alternative that many locals do not have, but should

were you or are you collecting SS earlier than expected because of healthcare costs? this is biggest nightmare. I retired as soon as I was able because of "quality of life " was more important to us than complete financial security ( no such thing anymore ).

we also have seen too many drivers stay too long until all they could do after retirement is watch TV. many died within 2 years of retiring. it seemed like every other month the conversation in the breakroom was "did you hear about so and so? he just died of this or that. didn't he just retire a little while ago?"

that made up my mind to get out while relatively healthy. we are getting along fine on just the pension right now. haven't started SS or tapped into 401k yet but ican see the writing on the wall. medical costs are going to be our biggest expense within 10 years.

it's getting to the point that we DON'T wanna know what is wrong physically with us. you go to the doctor and it's like taking the car to the mechanic. they always find something wrong and want more and more tests and treatments. that is what happened to my parents the last 8-10 years. always at the doctors or in the hospital.

i'd rather live maybe 3-5 years less doing what we want, partying and travelling and doing fun things and go out with a bang than veg out at home . die broke ( with a smile ) so the money is not a burden to our children, ha ha.

 

[The Milkman]

Another one of my pet peeves. This should have been a national issue for years. Totally ignored by the IBT forever.

I Hear Ya LOUD AND CLEAR! It will be nearly impossible for someone to start at 21 and put in 44 years till 65 and not be crippled a bit. UPS just wants to have you hang it up earlier (in some cases) and get no benefits or a reduced pension payout because you could not reach the harder to reach finish line that is now in front of the current workers. I saw many quit over the years or go to a different job field with 15 or mores years under their belts.

 

[Catatonic]

The biggest problem is our retirees are typically " early retirees".

Management tends to retire early (55) but only if they have accumulated other wealth (typically UPS stock).
A $7000 monthly pension at 65 and 35 years becomes $4000 or less if you retire early.

 

[The Milkman]

were you or are you collecting SS earlier than expected because of healthcare costs? this is biggest nightmare. I retired as soon as I was able because of "quality of life " was more important to us than complete financial security ( no such thing anymore ).

we also have seen too many drivers stay too long until all they could do after retirement is watch TV. many died within 2 years of retiring. it seemed like every other month the conversation in the breakroom was "did you hear about so and so? he just died of this or that. didn't he just retire a little while ago?"

that made up my mind to get out while relatively healthy. we are getting along fine on just the pension right now. haven't started SS or tapped into 401k yet but ican see the writing on the wall. medical costs are going to be our biggest expense within 10 years.

it's getting to the point that we DON'T wanna know what is wrong physically with us. you go to the doctor and it's like taking the car to the mechanic. they always find something wrong and want more and more tests and treatments. that is what happened to my parents the last 8-10 years. always at the doctors or in the hospital.

i'd rather live maybe 3-5 years less doing what we want, partying and travelling and doing fun things and go out with a bang than veg out at home . die broke ( with a smile ) so the money is not a burden to our children, ha ha.

You got the right thinking cap on........ Quality of life is what matters most. What good is a big bag of cash and a service plaque of 40 years going to do for you when you could hardly tie your own shoes without help..Maybe if I live to 80 or so then I will expect that but not at 55-60 years of age.
Will be 65 next May so I have over 8 years of quality of life under my belt while others are under 6 feet of ground. I want to croak broke and have fun before my final breath

 

[oldngray]

You got the right thinking cap on........ Quality of life is what matters most. What good is a big bag of cash and a service plaque of 40 years going to do for you when you could hardly tie your own shoes without help..Maybe if I live to 80 or so then I will expect that but not at 55-60 years of age.
Will be 65 next May so I have over 8 years of quality of life under my belt while others are under 6 feet of ground. I want to croak broke and have fun before my final breath

Many drivers are forced to retire early because all the damage done to their bodies from many years. 30+ years is a long time to do this job and most need to move into an easier job like a 22.3 to finish out their career or retire early. I would have liked to have worked a couple of more years but after 34 I was getting to the point of not being able to do the job much longer. I physically can't do many things I would like to do now but do have some quality of life left. I would be more like a cripple if I had stayed much longer.

 

[rod]

That wave of guys that left in their early 50s after 30 and 3 grand seems to be over.

It was fun while it lasted

 

[Bubblehead]

Makes you wonder why the Teamsters didn't bring the retirees over into TeamCare with the rest of us...???

Oh yeah, they don't pay dues or vote anymore.

 

[Lead Belly]

That wave of guys that left in their early 50s after 30 and 3 grand seems to be over.

We've had 40% of our drivers retire in the last 7 years. We have a huge wave going in 2017.

 

[10 point]

Which brings us full circle Brownie. I left at 55 with 32 full time years. But the only reason I felt comfortable
doing that is because my health care was $50 a month. You're going to see alot of guys stay much longer
and it won't be a pension issue as much as a health care issue. I'm sure quite a few will stay until 65 until
they hit Medicare. Don't be shocked if that number starts climbing too.

If they can pass the dot test at that age.
Some can't. Ours is getting more complex every two years.

 

[Bubblehead]

We've had 40% of our drivers retire in the last 7 years. We have a huge wave going in 2017.

Bet they believe they're pensions will be "guaranteed"?
I fear they are in for a rude awakening.

I truly hope I'm wrong.