How Long Does It Take To Leave IBT?

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deliver_man

Guest
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well, there is the first amendment. I don't see the part where it says it is ok to be a freeloader and a leech. Perhaps you could highlight it for me?
 
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wkmac

Guest
my2cents,
Thanks for the clarification. I can understand your objections to many union political positions. The sad part is if the labor unions put their political muscle behind elimination of the income tax on wages, that regressive system would be gone. If the unions really want to help the working man or woman then IMO that's a damn good place to start!
 
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upslocal480

Guest
<font color="0000ff">Ok this thread has gone much farther than I thought and my question was never answered. Instead it turned into a debate. All of you that have a problem with me getting out of the IBT, well, you'll live and you'll get over it one day. If you have trouble coping with it the Teamsters Help Line is always open 24 hours a day for free counseling. I'm not ant-union but I've never been as hard core or obsessed with it as some of you seem to be. I can think of lots of reasons why we need a union but can think of just as many reasons why unions are bad. I started working for Fed Ex Ground about a year after I started working at UPS. I was paid more and treated better than at UPS. I didn't have health benefits then but they are growing ridiculously fast and have recently added health coverage. I don't work there anymore because it was a hell of a drive from here. People keep pressing the issue that its impossible to be treated well and be paid well and have job security without a union but I'd say my job at Fed Ex Ground proves that wrong. Or maybe I was just lucky to have picked the only one in the world that could function without a union and still have happy employees? LOL. I do think we definitely need IBT at UPS and its mainly due to the fact that our management doesn't hesitate to screw over their employees. What does that say about UPS management? And I've never believed for a second that the union was perfect either though. I'm not so sure our pay would be any more or even any less if we didn't have the union. One of you mentioned that the only reason Fed Ex drivers were paid what they are paid is because of competition...well...it could work both ways. I work two jobs and still need more money and that's my sole reason for getting out. The only problem I've ever had with the union has been lately and that is with the way they low balled the part-timers with our raises and the fact that thousands of us didn't even get to vote on the contract because for some reason our ballots weren't sent to us. I was ok with that but at the same time since we aren't getting a decent raise I started looking for ways to get more money. A third job is a possibility but its not looking to well because of my schedule. The best way is to keep my union dues from coming out and getting back in when I'm full time and can afford it. Yeah 6.00 over 6 years is great and part-timers will be getting paid well then but now is when I need more money. Don't bother feeding me the classic line of "Go somewhere else" or "You should have went to college and got a degree." I have no time nor desire to go to school to get a degree just so I can wear a suit behind a desk making 30k a year when I can just tough it out at UPS and do better than that at UPS in a few more years. Just because I, or anyone else, doesn't want to be in the union, whether it be for someone being ant-union or just needing money like me, doesn't mean we are scabs or free loaders or leaches. You'd think someone that is die hard union would have at least some respect for someone getting out for any reason they see fit because luckily this is America and we have laws and such that gives us the right to do such things. I, nor anyone else that wants out or never got in for whatever reason, are no less of a person than you are for not fitting into your idea of how the way things should be at UPS. We all have minds of our own. So who ever has a problem with me wanting to get out for a while and have been making smart ass comments about it on here or anywhere else in the future...go back and read over your comments and listen to how narrow minded you make yourself look and how you seem to not realize that everyone in the world doesn't agree with you and doesn't want to be like you. I'm just glad not all Teamsters act like their world is comming to an end when they find that out. Its bad enough that UPS seems to be divided between company and union but now it seems that people like that are creating a third group that consists of people with opposit views. Thats allot of crap to put up with just to earn a pay check. </font>
 
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deliver_man

Guest
If you don't care what anyone else thinks about you leaving the union, why did you bother to make a post about it? This is a message board where people express their opinions, if you don't like it then don't post here. As far as other posters here "getting over" your decision to leave the union, I wouldn't worry about it. You are the only one who will have to live with being a freeloader, and you seem to be adjusting quite well
happy.gif
. Actually it's refreshing to hear someone admit that they are all about the money, doesn't make it right, IMO, but at least you aren't spouting some BS about the First amendment and "compulsory unionism" as an excuse for being a leech.
 
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upslocal480

Guest
"If you don't care what anyone else thinks about you leaving the union, why did you bother to make a post about it? This is a message board where people express their opinions, if you don't like it then don't post here."

I started this thread with a question hoping someone knew the answer and would answer it but of course there is always someone out there that doesn't respect other people's views and feels its necessary to insult them by calling them names like a little kid. Last I checked stating an opinion didn't warrant name calling. I only said I don't care as a response to your one sided remarks and its clear you think everyone should live and think just like you. I will continue to post here because why the hell would I quit doing so just because you can't accept the fact that not all of the 8 billion people on the planet want your life and you feel its necessary to lash out on them for that?

"As far as other posters here "getting over" your decision to leave the union, I wouldn't worry about it. You are the only one who will have to live with being a freeloader"

The union isn't some elite club. Its a labor union. Most people know what its purpose is but not all are in it for the same reasons. The main purpose of all unions is protecting the employees of the company the union represents and its necessary to have dues to fund the union. People like you don't realize that there are tons of people that need the dues money to live on and if it they need it bad enough they'll get out. I'd rather have a bunch of people that I don't know call me names then not have enough money to pay my bills. I've been paying dues for a long time now and plan on getting back in the future when it will make since financially to do so. Maybe you should think about things like that instead of jumping to conclusions and judging people and calling them names like an 8 year old at recess arguing over which Power Ranger would kick the others ass. </font>

"Actually it's refreshing to hear someone admit that they are all about the money, doesn't make it right, IMO, but at least you aren't spouting some BS about the First amendment and "compulsory unionism" as an excuse for being a leech."

Yes...I'm all about the money. Few people work at UPS just as a hobby. I'm not there to make friends. I'm there to get paid and have the benefits. There is no need to preach to me about the union being the sole reason why I receive my pay or benefits because you'll never know for sure if it would happen without them. If you do though Just remember what I said about Fed Ex Ground before you do so. People like you are predictable and I guarantee that RIGHT NOW you were thinking about telling me I should go back there. Don't bother. I'll save you the trouble. I would go back there if it wasn't so far away from me. UPS is just a few miles away from me. If me wanting to get out of the union for a while bothers you SOOOOOO much then why don't you put half the effort into recruiting more members at your hub or center as you do labeling people for not wanting to be like you? You'd more than make up for my absence. Remember I'm pro union and I believe everyone should be in it but there are situations that I think are good enough to warrant getting out for a while. If I could get away with telling everyone I pay bills to that I'm gonna be short every month because I don't want to get out of the union and that I refuse to get out and save money because I didn't want people to think I was "all about the money" then I would do so. Isn't going to happen though. I'm getting out for a while and looking for more work and there nothing you can do about it. Except maybe call me names.
 
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deliver_man

Guest
I started this thread with a question hopingn someone knew the answer and would answer it but of course there is always someone out there that doesn't respect other people's views and feels its necessary to insult them by calling them names like a little kid.

Really? Your question was answered in the 4th post, it's the same answer you could have got from human resources, you didn't need to ask it here. You have been crying about how the union "sold out" the part-timers on the contract, and threatening to give drivers bad loads because, of course, we all voted yes. And now under the pretense of asking a question you could have easily got an answer to from your own human resource deptartment, you write a post about resigning from the union. You were trolling for a reaction and you got it, so quit "crying like a little kid", nobody is buying it.

Last I checked stating an opinion didn't warrant name calling.

Last time I checked, someone who wants the benefits of union membership without paying union dues was a freeloader. If you dont like being called one, well, don't be one. Pretty simple.

People like you don't realize that there are tons of people that need the dues money to live on and if it they need it bad enough they'll get out.

You wrote in your 1st post that your dues were 63.00/month. I'm a full time driver and my dues are 58.00/month. Even assuming that you are, for some reason, actually paying more dues money than the full timers, you excuse is pretty weak. If you can't afford that deduction once every 3 weeks, you need to budget your money. You have bigger problems than dues, methinks.

I'm there to get paid and have the benefits.

Well there it is again, you want the pay and the benefits of a union job, but you have all kinds of excuses for not paying your dues. Bottom line, it's freeloading.

There is no need to preach to me about the union being the sole reason why I receive my pay or benefits because you'll never know for sure if it would happen without them.

If you really think that pay and benefits might be as good or better without a collective bargaining agreement, I have some real estate to sell you. As far as the ripple effect that union payscales and benefit packages have on other non-union companies in the same industry, it's well documented.
The fact is, your little act of "I was just asking an innocent question and got attacked by all these mean union guys" is baloney. You are the one who made posts threatening the fulltimers on this board with bad loads because, in your opinion, we were to blame for ratifying a bad contract, so everyone knows what you are all about. You posted some flamebait about resigning from the union, and got the predictable responses. Leave the union, don't leave the union, whatever, that's your decision. But don't cry like a little kid when people don't agree with it.
 
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my2cents

Guest
I choose to work for UPS because it was the best opportunity available to me in the competitive labor marketplace at the time and I was attracted by the company's good reputation. In turn, they choose to hire me, which is a voluntary exchange agreement. As a new hire at the time and like just about everybody else, I was completely unaware of my association rights to the union. I was under the impression of join the union or be fired. This alone is a subtle form of coercion and is not a valid voluntary exchange agreement. Anyway, I signed the membership and check-off cards because I figured I had no other choice, until I learned my rights several years later.

You are correct in the fact that if I wanted to work in a union-free environment, I am free to do so. I don't have a problem with working in a unionized setting. Those who want to be full and active members, I have no problem with. Having said all of that however, if I don't like how the union performs in its duties, I have the Section 7 "right to refrain from union activity," under the National Labor Relations Act. You may not like it, buts that's the law. So in short, I have made the decision to associate with my employer and to not associate with the union. I ask nothing of the union and don't want their representational services. I would prefer to have an individual contract with my employer, although that is impossible under current law.

Our country was founded on repecting and protecting individual and property rights. The NLRA puts the rights of the group over the rights of the individual, which is unconstitutional and un-American. At the risk of beating a dead horse, the sale of one's labor is a private and individual matter. It is not subject to a majority vote.
 
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upslocal480

Guest
Deliver Man.....you bring the union down. You rant and rave at anyone that doesn't fit into your self portrayed world where everyone is unionized at birth. You are probably one of those guys that condones the cowardly act of shooting bullets into peoples houses that crossed the picket line. People like you are the ones that really need the union to save their asses after they have received enough warning letters and write ups for missing work and missing stops on their route to warrant a firing. No one has cried like a little kid but you on this thread. I have asked a simple question and responded to your adolescent ranting in a calm collective manor. You don't know how much you make yourself look like a jerk. I'm not calling you a jerk because I don't know you and don't have the right but you on are on track to provide me with enough evidence to do so in the future each time you post on this thread. When someone asks a simple question and you don't agree with them...you tell them to ask human resources and call them names...when someone proves their point...you start bringing up old posts, such as when I said that allot of part-timers might make crappy loads and tried to make it sound like I personally was threatening you and people like you, in an attempt to deviate from the subject and to rally what few others out there (thank God) that share your attitude. You try and give what you think is good advice on budgeting. If you had read more carefully you'd have read that I have already done so. You apparently missed out, or didn't comprehend, when I said that I'll be saving 63.00/month INCLUDING our raises. Reading Comprehension is a tool. USE IT. You also brought up my complaining about our raises in another attempt to deviate from the subject. I believe arguing with you is like arguing with a fence post. No matter what anyone says to you..as long as you don't agree...they will never be right and in your mind don't deserve to live their own personal lives in their own ways because it seems to screw up your whole universe. Its kind of funny because I was warned about people like you by several union stewards long before I joined the union. I asked a couple to explain to me what the union is about and what I'd get out of it and what would happen if I stayed out or got out later. I was curious of all that because I knew nothing about unions back then. They explained to me that allot of the members were in it for the wrong reason and that many would of them think its an elite club that if you aren't in it than you'd be harrased. One said that the ones that ran their mouths off and harassed non union guys the most are the ones that seemed to need the stewards help the most. They said to just ignore them if they harassed me because people like that are the bad apples of the union and of UPS as a whole. I'm glad there aren't people like you at my center. There weren't even any like that at the Hub I worked in. Even the die hard union guys and women there didn't act like you. They at least could disagree in a civilized manor without resorting to ranting and raving tactics and attempting to "rally the troops" against anyone that doesn't agree with them. There might be more members if people like you would positively explain to non members why its good to be in the union instead of making people not want to be in it by harassing them and leaving them with the impression that the majority of the Teamsters are jerks. I like discussing any topic on here and respect other people's opinions but NO ONE wants to be harrased. That violates the terms of service..."methinks" and if I've said anything to you that violates the terms of service than I appoligize. You brought me down to your level.
 
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ups79

Guest
if you do leave the union, when you retire does the union still send you a pension check every month of your life and perhaps your wives if you take the 50/50 option. iam confused and interesting in knowing what your plans are for your pension money. i assume you would like a lump sum payment when you leave the union.
 
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cheryl

Guest
Discussion can be animated, which is fine, but we do not welcome personal attacks, on- or off-board. It is inappropriate to say anything on a discussion board about any individual or entity that you would not be prepared to say to them face-to-face.

It is fine to disagree with a different viewpoint, but please limit this to challenging the idea and not make your comments a personal challenge or make derogatory personal comments about individuals, their ideas or their situation. The latter is considered to be a flame and will not be tolerated.
 
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deliver_man

Guest
Well, this is clearly an emotional issue for you, but I will try to adress the parts of your post where you are mistaken or misguided, rather than just ranting.
when someone proves their point...you start bringing up old posts, such as when I said that allot of part-timers might make crappy loads and tried to make it sound like I personally was threatening you and people like you, in an attempt to deviate from the subject and to rally what few others out there (thank God) that share your attitude.

I'm not sure what point it is that you "proved" but here is your original post...seems like a pretty clear cut threat by you to screw with people's loads. No mention of the "other part timers" who were going to be doing this.

Drivers that voted yes....have fun swimming through your god alfull loads for now on. Yes...its is possible for the loads to get worse than they already where and you all WILL be finding that out soon. Feeders that voted yes...Have fun watching your load percentages go down enough for management to take away feeder runs because load quality on the trailers gets worse and damages half the packages and business is being lost. Also have fun getting bumped back down to your old jobs and having to put some effort in you work from then on because of the lack of work for you to have your feeder run.

on to the next one:
You apparently missed out, or didn't comprehend, when I said that I'll be saving 63.00/month INCLUDING our raises.

You would be getting the raise whether you pay dues or not, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as "saving money". The only money you will actually be saving is the amount of your union dues. Now that I think about it though, your math problems might be related to your budgeting problems. Just a thought
happy.gif
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Hmmmm... the rest of your post seems to be mostly ranting and raving interpersed with ad-hominem attacks and some personal anecdotes, though I see you refrained from making anymore references to the "power rangers" (what was that all about anyway? never mind, better I don't know). I don't think I'm medically qualified to help you with most of your issues, unfortunately. Just as long as you understand the part about freeloading, I will consider my job done
pkgcartiny.gif
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deliver_man

Guest
Ouch, Cheryl put the smack down. OK I'm done here, I can see where this is headed.
Enjoy
 
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deliver_man

Guest
Just out of curiosity I calculated out the equivalent of taking your union dues and investing them for 30 years instead of donating them to Hoffa and company.

$19 invested every week into an account that earns 8% interest = $123,691.


Thats interesting math, but you forgot to factor in that without the union we all would be making at least $19 less a week...probably closer to $100 less a week for full timers, and thats not counting the reduction in the benefits package. All things considered I would say we are still coming out ahead. Your math does make sense for the guys who like to freeload though.
 
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deliver_man

Guest
my2cents,
I have no problem with you asserting your rights under the law, merely with your rationale for doing so.
I choose to work for UPS because it was the best opportunity available to me in the competitive labor marketplace at the time and I was attracted by the company's good reputation.

That makes two of us. I assume "best opportunity" means best pay and benefits, among other things? Don't you think the union deserves some credit for that?

As a new hire at the time and like just about everybody else, I was completely unaware of my association rights to the union. I was under the impression of join the union or be fired.

Well if that was the case, then that was wrong. When I was hired it was made clear to me that joining the union was my choice, and it was the company that made that clear to me. Don't you feel that the company should have made you aware of your rights? After all, you are their employee.
I am not in a closed shop state, however, so there might be specific rules that I am not aware of.

I ask nothing of the union and don't want their representational services. I would prefer to have an individual contract with my employer, although that is impossible under current law.

Well, as you said earlier, you may not like it, but it's the law. Seriously though, do you really think that without the union you would be negotiating some individual contract with UPS? If there was no union it would be like any other non-union job. They would tell you "this is the job and this is what it pays, if you don't like it go someplace else" Here's a hint; It would pay less than it does with the union.

Our country was founded on repecting and protecting individual and property rights. The NLRA puts the rights of the group over the rights of the individual, which is unconstitutional and un-American. At the risk of beating a dead horse, the sale of one's labor is a private and individual matter. It is not subject to a majority vote.

Labor unions were founded because big corporations did NOT respect the rights of the individual worker. It's that simple. If you don't believe me go read some labor history, though I suspect you already have. As far as your charge of the NLRA being unconstitutional, well, that your opinion. Suffice it to say that it is not the opinion of the courts, or it would have been overturned long ago. I'm going with the courts on this one
wink2.gif
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upslocal480

Guest
"Well, this is clearly an emotional issue for you, but I will try to adress the parts of your post where you are mistaken or misguided, rather than just ranting."

You are the one that is mistaken and misguided because you mistake your opinions as facts and then try and enforce them on others.

"I'm not sure what point it is that you "proved" but here is your original post...seems like a pretty clear cut threat by you to screw with people's loads. No mention of the "other part timers" who were going to be doing this."

My point was this not everyone at UPS wants to be like you, think like you, and work like you. We don't all want our lives mirrored after yours. Below is the paragraph that supposedly has a direct "clear cut threat" from me to others. Could you please highlight that part for me...OH WAIT...YOU CAN'T because I never said it therefore it's not in their! If you had comprehended what you read the first time, AND second time, AND this time which is your third, then you'd have understood me and if you had put more time into researching other threads for material to use against me then you'd have found the post after that one that clearly stated that I was only referring to other people that I know as the ones that might do such a thing. Stop picking out only parts of post to try and better your argument.

"Drivers that voted yes....have fun swimming through your god alfull loads for now on. Yes...its is possible for the loads to get worse than they already where and you all WILL be finding that out soon. Feeders that voted yes...Have fun watching your load percentages go down enough for management to take away feeder runs because load quality on the trailers gets worse and damages half the packages and business is being lost. Also have fun getting bumped back down to your old jobs and having to put some effort in you work from then on because of the lack of work for you to have your feeder run."

"You would be getting the raise whether you pay dues or not, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as "saving money". The only money you will actually be saving is the amount of your union dues. Now that I think about it though, your math problems might be related to your budgeting problems. Just a thought."

OK I think you have really confused yourself at this point. Hasn't it acured to you that when I say "saving money" that I mean putting it in the bank? You do the math. Mine is fine. 23.00/month union dues + 0.85/hour raise = roughly 63.00/month in money I will be SAVING.....as in depositing in the bank. I'd say my budgeting problems are non existent judging by the fact I'll be depositing over 60.00 in extra cash in the bank each month. So I'd also have to say your reading comprehension problem is related to your consistent failure to try and dissect my posts into pieces that can be used to strengthen your argument.

"Hmmmm... the rest of your post seems to be mostly ranting and raving interpersed with ad-hominem attacks and some personal anecdotes, though I see you refrained from making anymore references to the "power rangers" (what was that all about anyway? never mind, better I don't know). I don't think I'm medically qualified to help you with most of your issues, unfortunately. Just as long as you understand the part about freeloading, I will consider my job done "

My reference to little kids arguing over which Power Ranger could kick the others ass was a comparison to your adolescent name calling and whining, which you did because you realized that not everyone agrees with you and doesn't want to be your union clone. I am not medically qualified to help you either because I have no schooling in obsessive compulsive behavior such as your obsession and lust for the union and your equally obsessive dream of EVERYONE at UPS joining in hands across America for the union and pissing on anyone that doesn't join or stay in it. This thread was started as a question. A couple of people instead responded with their opinions on why I shouldn't get out, which is fine. I actually like hearing other views on things. They all did it in a civilized way and did so without lowering themselves like you have to calling me names or reading through past threads (that have nothing to do with this one) and taking out portions of them to use in this thread as some sort of propaganda to strengthen your argument against me. They did so without resorting to your, what seems to be, communist force feeding tactics. If they could respond that way and accept the fact that I don't share their view on the subject then why can't you? What is your problem? Do you think that if you keep calling me names and ATTEMPTING to question my math skills and budgeting skills and my place at UPS that I'll give up and say "Yeah...I'm a freeloader"? You said as long as I understand the part about being a freeloader then your "Job" will be considered done. What job is that? You need to just consider it a lost cost because I will NEVER understand your accusations of being a free loader or a leach. I'm responding to you ALMOST, not as bad, but almost the way you have but that's because I always defend myself unless I have violated a clear cut law or recognized idea. What you have been stating isn't even close to being such. What you have been trying to brain wash into my head is just your own personal opinions and its time you wake up and realize that. You opinions have been noted and sort of respected, but it's time to move on.


(Message edited by upslocal480 on September 23, 2002)
 
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wkmac

Guest
Hey Cheryl, you are lacking one calculator in today's economic climate and falling stock markets. A reverse/wealth reduction calculator so you can predict how much money you'll be worth less come next month, year, etc. LOL!

Sorry guys just felt a little humor to lighten up the moment was needed. Both sides have made valid points along with numerous comments that weren't needed (heat of the moment thing) but overall I really think, if we can keep this civil, this is the type discussion that is needed. I'll admit to having mixed emotions about the union but since, by law, they are for the most part the sole bargaining agent then we need to work to make it better and these open discussion are a good place to start. IMO.
 
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my2cents

Guest
The union would get credit if bargaining was a free and voluntary process, instead its compulsory bargaining akin to bargaining with a gun under the table. In effect, meet our demands or else. Below is an excerpt from Human Action by Ludwig von Mises, which explains the process better than I can. This excerpt can be found in Chapter 30 in the book, spanning pages 777-779. The entire book can be found at the Ludwig von Mises Institutute
The Catallactic Aspects of Labor Unionism

The only catallactic problem with regard to labor unions is the question of whether or not it is possible to raise by pressure and compulsion the rates of all those eager to earn wages above the height the unhampered market would have determined.

In all countries the labor unions have actually acquired the privilege of violent action. The governments have abandoned in their favor the essential attribute of government, the exclusive power and right to resort to violent coercion and compulsion. Of course, the laws which make it a criminal offense for any citizen to resort--except in case of self-defense--to violent action have not been formally repealed or amended. However, actually labor union violence is tolerated within broad limits. The labor unions are practically free to prevent by force anybody from defying their orders concerning wage rates [p. 778] and other labor conditions. They are free to inflict with impunity bodily evils upon strikebreakers and upon entrepreneurs and mandataries of entrepreneurs who employ strikebreakers. They are free to destroy property of such employers and even to injure customers patronizing their shops. The authorities, with the approval of public opinion, condone such acts. The police do not stop such offenders, the state attorneys do not arraign them, and no opportunity is offered to the penal courts to pass judgment on their actions. In excessive cases, if the deeds of violence go too far, some lame and timid attempts at repression and prevention are ventured. But as a rule they fail. Their failure is sometimes due to bureaucratic inefficiency or to the insufficiency of the means at the disposal of the authorities, but more often to the unwillingness of the whole governmental apparatus to interfere successfully.[17]

Such has been the state of affairs for a long time in all nonsocialist countries. The economist in establishing these facts neither blames nor accuses. He merely explains what conditions have given to the unions the power to enforce their minimum wage rates and what the real meaning of the term collective bargaining is.

As union advocates explain the term collective bargaining, it merely means the substitution of a union's bargaining for the individual bargaining of the individual workers. In the fully developed market economy bargaining concerning those commodities and services of which homogeneous items are frequently bought and sold in great quantities is not effected by the manner in which nonfungible commodities and services are traded. The buyer or seller of fungible consumers' goods or of fungible services fixes a price tentatively and adjusts it later according to the response his offer meets from those interested until he is in a position to buy or to sell as much as he plans. Technically no other procedure is feasible. The department store cannot haggle with its patrons. It fixes the price of an article and waits. If the public does not buy sufficient quantities, it lowers the price. A factory that needs five hundred welders fixes a wage rate which, as it expects, will enable it to hire five hundred men. If only a minor number turns up, it is forced to allow a higher rate. Every employer must raise the wages he offers up to the point at which no competitor lures the workers away by overbidding. What makes the enforcement of minimum wage rates futile is precisely the fact that with wages raised above this point competitors do not turn up with a demand for labor big enough to absorb the whole supply.

If the unions were really bargaining agencies, their collective bargaining could not raise the height of wage rates above the point of [p. 779] the unhampered market. As long as there still are unemployed workers available, there is no reason for an employer to raise his offer. Real collective bargaining would not differ catallactically from the individual bargaining. It would, like individual bargaining, give a virtual voice to those job-seekers who have not yet found the jobs they are looking for.

However, what is euphemistically called collective bargaining by union leaders and "pro-labor" legislation is of a quite different character. It is bargaining at the point of a gun. It is bargaining between an armed party, ready to use its weapons, and an unarmed party under duress. It is not a market transaction. It is a dictate forced upon the employer. And its effects do not differ from those of a government decree for the enforcement of which the police power and the penal courts are used. It produces institutional unemployment.

The treatment of the problems involved by public opinion and the vast number of pseudo-economic writings is utterly misleading. The issue is not the right to form associations. It is whether or not any association of private citizens should be granted the privilege of resorting with impunity to violent actions. It is the same problem that relates to the activities of the Ku Klux Klan.

Neither is it correct to look upon the matter from the point of view of a "right to strike." The problem is not the right to strike, but the right--by intimidation or violence--to force other people to strike, and the further right to prevent anybody from working in a shop in which a union has called a strike. When the unions invoke the right to strike in justification of such intimidation and deeds of violence, they are on no better ground than a religious group would be in invoking the right of freedom of conscience as a justification of persecuting dissenters.

When in the past the laws of some countries denied to employees the right to form unions, they were guided by the idea that such unions have no objective other than to resort to violent action and intimidation. When the authorities in the past sometimes directed their armed forces to protect the employers, their mandataries, and their property against the onslaught of strikers, they were not guilty of acts hostile to "labor." They simply did what every government considers its main duty. They tried to preserve their exclusive right to resort to violent action.

There is no need for economics to enter into an examination of the problems of jurisdictional strikes and of various laws, especially of the American New Deal, which were admittedly loaded against the employers and assigned a privileged position to the unions. There is only one point that matters. If a government decree or labor union pressure and compulsion fix wage rates above the height of the potential market rates, institutional unemployment results. [p. 780]

In regards to processing new hires, the company is forced to take a neutral approach. If it tells new hires about their right to refrain from union activity, chances are the union will file unfair labor practices against the company for discouraging union membership. In fact, the ex-General Councel of the NLRB reprimanded a company a few years ago for doing just that. To this day where I work, new hires are still led to believe that union membership is a condition of employment. This still occurs despite a NLRB settlement notice from a few years ago stating the rights of new hires. The company won't touch the issue and the union's position is silence. The scam continues.

Individual employment contracts exist in about 90% of the private sector. Union membership rolls in the private sector have been falling since their peak in the 1950's. The workplace is changing and I can't see why I couldn't come to an individual employment agreement with the company. If I made less money or whatever the case may be, that would be the risk I would have to take. I don't believe in the exploitation doctrine, so I think I could come to fair terms. Millions of people in the private sector do this on a routine basis. I've had jobs in non-union environments before, so I can't see what the big deal is. Additionally, if I wanted to join the union voluntarily, it should be a free choice.

Again, individuals have the right to join a union, although dissenting employees should not be forced to associate with it, either through an already established bargaining unit or in a newly organized unit. The Supreme Court struck down compulsory unionism twice before the Wagner Act, striking down the BCCA and the NIRA. With this precedent behind it, the Supreme Court probably would have struck down the Wagner Act as unconstitutional because it gives private associations sovereign power, which is clearly unconstitutional. Instead, against the backdrop of FDR's Supreme Court packing threats, the Wagner Act was upheld. This is known as "the switch in time, which saved nine." Politics trumpted the Constitution. The issue of free association was not even touched in the decision of Jones v. Laughlin Steel, 1937.
 
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