India 🇮🇳 vs Pakistan 🇵🇰 Can Trump stop it or make it worse ?

[vantexan]

The problem is MILLIONS of other people hooked on Facebook and Fox News and right-wing radio believe exactly that: that we didn’t give any security assurances to Ukraine in exchange for their transfer of nuclear stockpile. And if they don’t yet believe that yet it’s because the liars on Fox haven’t told them that.

You're looking ignorant on that Budapest memorandum.

 

[vantexan]

According to @Next Day Err China, Iran and North Korea

China won't stick their neck out for Russia and the other two can't project power.

 

[bottomups]

Yes. Yes we did. Along with the United Kingdom.

It’s called the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances.

This is why arguing with MAGA is hopeless. You don’t want to learn and aren’t curious, you just have your point of view. Carry on.

Our governments word is useless. Never been a treaty or agreement that they didn't abrogate when it suited them.

 

[vantexan]

I never said it wasn't a worthless guarantee. You said we didn't give our assurance (our word) that we would act in Ukraine's interest in exchange for giving up their nukes. I said we DID, in fact, do that very thing. You got called out for it and then you changed the subject about how the assurances were a bad idea. That was not my argument. You changed the subject because you were WRONG.

Bye.

Are we supposed to give a blank check? Fund an endless war? Russia tried to take over Ukraine. They got driven back to an area near Russia that they can hold. Neither side is going to make any serious gains but will continue to pile up the dead and wounded. It's time Ukraine faces facts that they'll have to cede some territory. It's time Russia faces facts that it's not going to run over and conquer Ukraine and will have to settle for the territory they're holding. It's time for the backers of both sides in the U.S. and Europe to accept this and quickly.move to a resolution.

 

[vantexan]

Our governments word is useless. Never been a treaty or agreement that they didn't abrogate when it suited them.

But all other governments are paragons of virtue in their own diplomatic treaties and agreements.

 

[Next Day Err]

Are we supposed to give a blank check? Fund an endless war? Russia tried to take over Ukraine. They got driven back to an area near Russia that they can hold. Neither side is going to make any serious gains but will continue to pile up the dead and wounded. It's time Ukraine faces facts that they'll have to cede some territory. It's time Russia faces facts that it's not going to run over and conquer Ukraine and will have to settle for the territory they're holding. It's time for the backers of both sides in the U.S. and Europe to accept this and quickly.move to a resolution.

It costs them a hell of a lot more to carry on than America + EU in relative terms. Putin is COUNTING on us giving up on our European ally. It’s not even a close call. Standing with Ukraine is the smartest foreign policy move we can make. China sees us back off and they are emboldened. Russia is further emboldened and together they may see further opportunities to exploit and hurt more of our allies and closer to the heart of our interests.

 

[Next Day Err]

Our governments word is useless. Never been a treaty or agreement that they didn't abrogate when it suited them.

It doesn’t have to be. We could keep our word.

And the whole argument with Blob wasn’t about whether or not the Budapest Memo was a bad or stupid idea. It was whether it was, quite literally, the U.S. and UK giving our assurance that Ukraine wouldn’t necessarily swing in the wind if they gave up their weapons. That’s all.

 

[Thebrownblob]

It costs them a hell of a lot more to carry on than America + EU in relative terms. Putin is COUNTING on us giving up on our European ally. It’s not even a close call. Standing with Ukraine is the smartest foreign policy move we can make. China sees us back off and they are emboldened. Russia is further emboldened and together they may see further opportunities to exploit and hurt more of our allies and closer to the heart of our interests.

I don’t know why these people don’t call you and ask your opinion. For someone who is wrong so often you sure are proud of your beliefs.

 

[Thebrownblob]

It doesn’t have to be. We could keep our word.

And the whole argument with Blob wasn’t about whether or not the Budapest Memo was a bad or stupid idea. It was whether it was, quite literally, the U.S. and UK giving our assurance that Ukraine wouldn’t necessarily swing in the wind if they gave up their weapons. That’s all.

It’s not my fault you didn’t read the agreement and didn’t understand that we never once told them we would give them anything other than the acknowledgment that they have sovereign rights. Thats it.

If your argument is more morally we should help them. That’s a whole different standard and has nothing to do with the agreement as it was written.

 

[vantexan]

It costs them a hell of a lot more to carry on than America + EU in relative terms. Putin is COUNTING on us giving up on our European ally. It’s not even a close call. Standing with Ukraine is the smartest foreign policy move we can make. China sees us back off and they are emboldened. Russia is further emboldened and together they may see further opportunities to exploit and hurt more of our allies and closer to the heart of our interests.

Putin isn't going to attack a NATO country. That's fear mongering. What you're saying is continue fighting. You criticize Trump but you're wanting a forever war.

 

[Thebrownblob]

Putin isn't going to attack a NATO country. That's fear mongering. What you're saying is continue fighting. You criticize Trump but you're wanting a forever war.

Exactly and just like three years ago when the Biden administration started giving money to this, there is no clear answer on what the goal is. If the goal was to get back the territory that has failed miserably.

 

[newfie]

Our governments word is useless. Never been a treaty or agreement that they didn't abrogate when it suited them.

and now we're going to try to get an agreement between two dictatorships who have been lied to by both sides and thus dont trust each other or anyone else.

 

[newfie]

But all other governments are paragons of virtue in their own diplomatic treaties and agreements.

government and virtue should never be in the same sentence

 

[Next Day Err]

Putin isn't going to attack a NATO country. That's fear mongering. What you're saying is continue fighting. You criticize Trump but you're wanting a forever war.

I want a forever war? Or does Putin want it? Because he started it.

 

[Thebrownblob]

I want a forever war? Or does Putin want it? Because he started it.

He did start it at at least as far as we in the west is concerned. I also think he’ll end it at the time of his choosing. There is no one to demand anything from Russia right now. Anything they do up to them hard to understand I guess for some people to understand , especially those who grew up in that everyone gets a trophy generation that that is how war works

 

[Next Day Err]

He did start it at at least as far as we in the west is concerned. I also think he’ll end it at the time of his choosing. There is no one to demand anything from Russia right now. Anything they do up to them hard to understand I guess for some people to understand , especially those who grew up in that everyone gets a trophy generation that that is how war works

Yeah, nice try.

We’re handing him Ukraine and turning our backs on a fledgling democracy and partner so we can hand a trophy to a kleptocrat like Putin. Not to mention Xi is watching what we do very closely to determine how far he can go when the time comes

I can’t believe the level of pussification that’s happened to the right wing.

 

[Thebrownblob]

Yeah, nice try.

We’re handing him Ukraine and turning our backs on a fledgling democracy and partner so we can hand a trophy to a kleptocrat like Putin. Not to mention Xi is watching what we do very closely to determine how far he can go when the time comes

I can’t believe the level of pussification that’s happened to the right wing.

Tell me again, what the plan is in Ukraine? You still haven’t told me.

 

[Next Day Err]

Tell me again, what the plan is in Ukraine? You still haven’t told me.

Ukraine’s plan?

 

[Thebrownblob]

Ukraine’s plan?

Anybody’s endgame ours, there’s I haven’t heard anybody that has a realistic endgame

 

[Next Day Err]

Anybody’s endgame ours, there’s I haven’t heard anybody that has a realistic endgame

How about this one: put maximum pressure on Putin. He’s a big boy, he can figure out how to lie to his own people and just claim victory and keep his job.

Giving in to him is the wrong move.