Latest news calls to reject contract...

oldupsman

Well-Known Member
First of all, the only way you are going to pay $10K or more for health insurance is if you have something catastrophic happen. I am covered by a Teamster plan and my out-of-pocket last year was just under $200 and that was only because I chose to upgrade the Rx in my back-up pair of eyeglasses.

Second, I will concede that those of you who will be switching to a union plan will need to become smarter medical consumers. You won't be able to run to the doctor's with the sniffles or run to the pharmacy for a name-brand drug. $100 ER co-pays will make you think twice before seeking emergency care. You will need to learn to love the words "generic drugs", "co-pays" and "deductibles".

I suggest that each of you consider buying supplemental health insurance. This may help offset some of the costs.

The 4 year progression is a precursor to the 5 year and defined two-tiered wage system sure to come in 2018.

Is the contract ideal? No. Is it something that we can live with? Yes.
Why would I willingly give up an excellent health care plan. I have no need to buy supplement insurance.
But since you're happy I'm just supposed to be okay with that and buy supplement insurance.
Well it's certainly seems to be something you can live with. However I can assure you it's not something alot of people can live with.
 

browned_out

Well-Known Member
I just went to my local (162) contract meeting.

As a full-time driver in the Western Conference, this agreement will be a great deal for me. I will continue to be covered (with full maintainence of benefits) under the Oregon Teamster Employers Trust for medical insurance, which provides excellent coverage. I will get pension and pay increases, improved language regarding the use of technology for discipline, and improved language regarding optional holidays.

Unfortunately....this comes at the expense of screwing over a significant number of my fellow employees in other parts of the country on their medical coverage, and offering what I feel is still a grossly substandard starting wage for new PT employees. For that reason, I am reluctantly voting "no" on the offer.

Here's the thing though; unlike a lot of people on this forum, I didnt have my mind made up before I got all the facts. There are people on this forum who would have voted "no" on world peace and a cure for cancer simply because hall was involved in it. There are also people who will vote "yes" on anything just because the IBT is telling them to.

Did Hoffa and Hall "sell us out"? No. They negotiated what they felt was the best offer they could get given the economy, the current uncertainty regarding healthcare, and what they perceived to be our collective willingness to go out on strike. Its pretty easy for someone who has never negotiated a contract in their life to sit behind a computer and bloviate loudly about what Hoffa and Hall "should have" done for us. The bottom line here is that we collectively have the final say in the matter with our vote.

I commend you on that statement. Most don't know that our fate lies with the out come on the TA.
 

oldupsman

Well-Known Member
YOU Fell for the ECONOMY thing huh? Did you miss RECORD PROFITS in this so called bad Economy.. The Economy is NOT bad for UPS.
I think you're misunderstanding my position. The reason I'm fighting to keep UPS health care is because I agree with you. If a company is making 4 billion profit they
can afford to give us good health care. The good stuff I was talking about were about language issues, not economic.
 
A

anonymous6

Guest
it's pretty bad if this contract passes that I will have to extend my career by 5 years just because of the poor healthcare language. my house is almost payed off, 401k and savings is healthy. we were all set for a comfortable retirement.

but with a wife that has been almost completely disabled by stroke and cancer, it could wipe us out financially in a couple years. 30 plus years of hard work down the drain in 2. it's happening to Americans all over the country. people being wiped out due to out of control healthcare costs.

vote no. ( and spread the news )
 

pretender

Well-Known Member
First of all, the only way you are going to pay $10K or more for health insurance is if you have something catastrophic happen. I am covered by a Teamster plan and my out-of-pocket last year was just under $200 and that was only because I chose to upgrade the Rx in my back-up pair of eyeglasses.

Second, I will concede that those of you who will be switching to a union plan will need to become smarter medical consumers. You won't be able to run to the doctor's with the sniffles or run to the pharmacy for a name-brand drug. $100 ER co-pays will make you think twice before seeking emergency care. You will need to learn to love the words "generic drugs", "co-pays" and "deductibles".

I suggest that each of you consider buying supplemental health insurance. This may help offset some of the costs.

The 4 year progression is a precursor to the 5 year and defined two-tiered wage system sure to come in 2018.

Is the contract ideal? No. Is it something that we can live with? Yes.

I agree that people need to be smarter medical consumers, regardless of what insurance they have. I have no problem with doctor and emergency room copays. However, generics are not always available, and if you have a chronic condition the costs add up fast--My wife is on 10 prescriptions a month. I just think it is easy for you to advise the purchase of supplemental insurance when you are obviously in one of the better plans, and have no need.
 

3 done 3 to go

In control of own destiny
Sober, on one issue, you and I are miles apart. That. issue aside, I appreciate your thought and efforts to understand and apply the new contractual language to yourself. I also admire your thought of your fellow brothers and sisters who would be adversly affected by this contract. Unlike DAVE, who maintains a ME, MYSELF & I Mentality with this proposal, other members are NOT his concern and I respect your concern for others.

We stand together in our beliefs on this contract. I do not have a child with Diabetes and I will not have to make the numerous trips to the hospital or pharmacies to maintain that childs health. I will not be the one who ends up in BK court when the copays, deductibles and 20% wipe out my family.

What I can do, is think RATIONALLY as a brother to a fellow employee and put myself in "his/her" shoes.

Yes, I am not currently sick, nor is any of my family members, but I WILL NOT SELL OUT for $3.90 and SCREW my brothers and sisters of this UNION.

Its more than just "complaining". Its understanding how the words have meanings.

Further, You mention "interpretations" explained by those that negotiate them, but unfortunately, when those "interpretations" reach the hub levels, the meanings change. hall can explain away everything in the contract to his hearts content, but the reality remains the same. The managers and supervisors of UPS ( who were NOT at negotiations ) will still attempt to twist the words and meanings like the always do because the language isnt crisp, self defining or clear cut.

Article 6 when modified in 2008, included the first use of technology language. I COMPLAINED over and over about the language and many understood its ramifications. Some voted NO, but the majority accepted hallS explanations about this technology when he said "this technology will only be used for safety".

But what came of that explanation from the GUY who negotiated this language?

Well, thats simple. In my locals jurisdiction, 55 drivers were terminated from information obtained via DIAD, GPS, SPARKS and TRACE reports. 55 drivers in 8 years. Further, PRODUCTION harrassment increased by 100%. Warning letters, suspensions and such became the norm despite hallS explanations.

Same thing is happening today with the NEW article 6 language that I ONCE AGAIN call for our brothers and sisters to reject!

They DIDNT improve article 6, and instead made it easier for the company to use it against us. Lets examine the language:

Section 6. Technology and Discipline

No employee shall be discharged if such discharge is based solely upon information received from GPS or any successor system

unless he/she engages in dishonesty (defined for the purposes of this paragraph as any intentional act or omission by an

employee where he/she intends to defraud the Company).

The Company must confirm by direct observation or other corroborating evidence any other violations warranting discharge. The

degree of discipline dealing with off-area offenses shall not bechanged because of the use of GPS.

The Company acknowledges that there have been problems with the utilization of technology in the past. Therefore, at the request

of the Union’s Joint National Negotiating Committee Co-Chair a meeting will be scheduled with the Company Co-Chair to discuss

any alleged misuse of technology for disciplinary purposes and what steps are necessary to remedy any misuse.



In any sentence, wording is carefully placed in to give meanings and "intent". Sometimes, words can give the wrong impressions. In this case, the words "OR" and "UNLESS" play KEY roles in this structure.

Then first part of the sentence says that "NO EMPLOYEE shall be discharged if that discharge is based SOLELY on technology"..... Some people stop reading at this point and give the sentence a meaning that is NOT implied. The sentence has a BIG caveat contained in it, and its that caveat that is the danger for the employees.

The danger comes after the word "UNLESS". After this word, additional words were placed in "AT THE COMPANY'S" request. Those words are "ANY INTENTIONAL ACT"

THAT COULD MEAN ANYTHING at the package level. These words were NOT in the original construction of this part of article 6 in 2008. Then, it futhers that danger by including the term "where he/she intends on defrauding the company".

Again, what does that mean? We have 7 cardinal sins that are spelled out, and they are spelled out to avoid giving a supervisor or manager a green light to create a scenario whereas to discharge employees. In Article 6, there are NO defining terms for technology.

Lets give an example for conversations sake.

Lets say in the morning PCM, the manager says that you cannot drive more than .5 miles to get lunch, and you disagree with that and decide to drive 2.5 miles to get lunch. Two things have happened here. First, you disobeyed a directive and committed "an intentional act" confirmed by GPS. The defrauding would be the "extra mileage" driven which would have extended your drive time.

A manager may take this opportunity to discharge you "solely" based on the GPS confirmation alone as the sentence reads. NOW , I know this may sound ridiculous, but its happened before.

Secondly, lets say its 10:29am and you have one more air stop to make by 10:30 and you are two blocks away. Obviously, you are not going to make service on that air package, so you open the stop on the wrong street and close it out, then drive to the location and it comes up good on time, OR you open the stop, scan the package and leave it open until you get to destination then close it at 10:32 showing up ontime.

GPS and sparks confirms your actions and the manager discharges you for Dishonesty for "defrauding" the company out of legitimate delivery time because of "AN INTENTIONAL ACT". Further, if the employee DENIES, LIES or OMITS information relating to information obtained via GPS or DIAD, they can be terminated.

This happens everyday somewhere in the country. The addition of the words "any intentional act" was missing in 2008 and the company "PURSUED" this language this time around because they were losing cases in arbitrations.

The UNION conceeded to these terms and this is bad for us.

NOW, the explanation from hall misrepresents the "intentions" of the language. Its the second paragraph of this section that people are confusing with the first paragraph.

The second paragraph says that "the company must confirm by direct observation or other corroborating evidence..... " Im going to stop right here, because THIS IS AS FAR AS PEOPLE ARE READING THE SENTENCE!

Two KEY words come into play at this part of the sentence.

"ANY OTHER"
are two words that DEFINE the second paragraph and SEPARATE it from the first paragraph. To continue the sentence, it reads "....ANY OTHER violations warranting discharge."

What does this mean? In a stand alone sentence, this sentence means that the company can use both observation and any other evidence to confirm a discharge NOT covered in the first paragraph.

What about production? What about stealing time? What about extending workdays" What about lunch violations? What about break violations?

The company can use this article 6 language to take out whoever they want. There is NOTHING in this article that provides PROTECTIONS, rather, it makes it alot easier to take out an employee and I register my opposition to this language once again.

Remember, hall isnt going to be at the package level when a discharge occurs, but they did put in an attempt to backstop abuse ( should there be any) by including the third paragraph where they describe that a meeting will be called to examine if any abuses of this section are determined.

But thats only going to happen after a TON of people are discharged via this language. Would YOU like to be the guinea pig on the list of victims before a meeting will be called?

I think we can agree on many things, and I am sure if you consider what I explained, you may look at this differently.

Thanks for your time.

Peace

TOS









Tos. Great post. Ups will force us all to be perfect robots. Which they will never give us a chance to do. We are set up to fail ,day in and day out.,
 

stink219

Well-Known Member
I'm very weary of your local losing 55 people due to dishonesty. That is unbelievable. I think your problem is not in the language but at your local level. The scenarios you spoke of above happen all the time in our building. But someone is allowing that. You can blame Hoffa/Hall but they never sat in on any of our guys being "terminated" and we have an amazing track record for terminations. My belief is that your stewards and BA need to get creative and crank up the intensity.
 

TimeForChange

Well-Known Member
I just read on the "Vote No on UPS Contract" facebook page, that at this morning's 8 a.m. UPS TA meeting, the President of big Local 804 in New York city announced that he is NOT endorsing the national TA.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/161346104027154/?fref=ts

Not that this was unexpected.

Nice turnout :)

804 meeting, re UPS  tentative contracts.jpg
804 meeting, re UPS  tentative contracts.jpg
 
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Catatonic

Nine Lives
I'm very weary of your local losing 55 people due to dishonesty. That is unbelievable. I think your problem is not in the language but at your local level. The scenarios you spoke of above happen all the time in our building. But someone is allowing that. You can blame Hoffa/Hall but they never sat in on any of our guys being "terminated" and we have an amazing track record for terminations. My belief is that your stewards and BA need to get creative and crank up the intensity.

You are probably wary too!
I am both weary and wary of anything TOS posts as well.
They probably all got their job back if it did happen.
You never know the real story or the total truth with anything he posts.
 

realbrown1

Annoy a liberal today. Hit them with facts.

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
You are probably wary too! I am both weary and wary of anything TOS posts as well. They probably all got their job back if it did happen. You never know the real story or the total truth with anything he posts.
HOAX..you carry no weight on this issue. You KNOW nothing about negotiations and attempting to discredit me is a cheap attempt at abuse as a moderator. You should stick to eating donuts and watching tv in your "senior" years, and let those of us who know what we are talking about address the issues. Peace TOS
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
HOAX..you carry no weight on this issue. You KNOW nothing about negotiations and attempting to discredit me is a cheap attempt at abuse as a moderator. You should stick to eating donuts and watching tv in your "senior" years, and let those of us who know what we are talking about address the issues. Peace TOS
My observations of your posting style has nothing to be with a moderator and you are not being moderated by me.
I was just warning newbie members as a general service.
​Old timers already know about you.
 

BigUnionGuy

Got the T-Shirt
Article 6 when modified in 2008, included the first use of technology language. I COMPLAINED over and over about the language and many understood its ramifications. Some voted NO, but the majority accepted hallS explanations about this technology when he said "this technology will only be used for safety".

When you say hall, explained that it was for "safety purposes".... Where was that ?


HOAX..you carry no weight on this issue. You KNOW nothing about negotiations and attempting to discredit me is a cheap attempt at abuse as a moderator. You should stick to eating donuts and watching tv in your "senior" years, and let those of us who know what we are talking about address the issues. Peace TOS



​-Bug-
 

BigUnionGuy

Got the T-Shirt
TOS,

Read my previous post.

I can walk you through it.


At the 2007.... 2-man review,

It was not explained as "safety".


I was there.... How about you ?



​-Bug-
 

stink219

Well-Known Member
​Ken P, national organizer of dissident group Teamsters for a Democratic Union (TDU) and a multidecade veteran of labor negotiations.
Still waiting on an answer to this BS! Which contracts gave him the title of "multidecade veteran of labor negotiations"?
 
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