libertarianism 101 thread (a little humor, and truth)
- Thread starter UnconTROLLed
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wkmac
Well-Known Member
Are there any conditions in which you see these moral violations as being justified to be committed on another human being by yourself?
Catatonic
Nine Lives
The State or the individual wronged taking retribution.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
At that point is where you and libertarianism would part ways and you would be correct from your POV in opposing libertarianism because it's philosophical basis would object to your use of moral violation upon another to serve your own interests. Justified or not. In fact, placing qualifiers re-enforcers the point.
You and libertarianism have no compatibility and you are right not to waste your time with it. At this point you can't go the next step in non aggression. You still see the use of coercion and force as legit and of having utility. Ideas towards libertarian solutions are basis on people who have strong moral foundation and the ability to govern themselves by respecting and showing empathy for the people around them. You seem to still lack that ability.
You and libertarianism have no compatibility and you are right not to waste your time with it. At this point you can't go the next step in non aggression. You still see the use of coercion and force as legit and of having utility. Ideas towards libertarian solutions are basis on people who have strong moral foundation and the ability to govern themselves by respecting and showing empathy for the people around them. You seem to still lack that ability.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I can see now why you still vote.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
I'm waiting for society to break down and then I will take everything of yours I currently crave!
I am experienced in taking my own moral inventory and think I'm fairly average compared to my fellow man. Alot of people like to think better of themselves than they truly are. But yes, I think I have a pretty good idea of what we are talking about. Unfortunately, I don't have the faith in humanity that you seem to have. People are not so much evil as they are apt to act irrationally when afraid whether or not that fear is justified. It could be financial insecurity, it could be of bodily harm. Doesn't matter. People will act outside what they know to be right. And contrary to your final statement, it is empathy that informs me of these facts. If you are waiting for fear to subside in the human race for this society to spring forth, I admire your optimism.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
I think it is called "rationalization" and my observations is that people will rationalize any frickin' thing they want to.
So I compartmentalize:
A) I try to live and think within a moral construct which is probably very close to wkmac's system.
B) I live in an imperfect world where people are basically selfish and evil so I make choices based on true libertarian ideas (which wkmac was leading you down) with the realization that I will make a bad choice but is less-worse than the alternative choice.
Because of the said (and sad) realization of the basic immorality of humans, I tend to go with the real-world solution that is going to impinge the least on mine and other peoples natural rights including obtained wealth and earned income.
That generally means choosing a Republican solution over a Democrat solution because those are the only choices I have.
My desire to "live within a moral construct" keeps me from associating with or accepting either Party (or the Libertarian Party either for that matter).
It is really hard to choose between the Dems and Pubs because they are so much alike but one thing that seems fundamentally obvious to me is making a choice based on whether it will increase the National Government debt. If I accepted responsibility for the actions of my generation (which I do not), I would be ashamed of what is being done to the US by increasing the National debt.
I understand the Pubs are just as much the cause for the current National debt as the Dems are so I make real-life choices based what would seem to reduce the National debt over time.
Catatonic
Nine Lives
My first read was "inferiority" ... I did not catch inventory until the second read through.
Just thought it was funny ... not saying anything except I never thought it was inferior, just different.
UnconTROLLed
perfection
So I have learned of being "self-taught"; in the end, you are teaching yourself, no matter whether someone showed you the information (teacher, instructor) or you stumbled upon it on your own. There's no truth in "being taught" by another, if you ask me. Someone can't make another think and assimilate information, to fully comprehend, telepathically.
UnconTROLLed
perfection
Not sure if anyone noticed that I used the Koch vs. Salvochea for one major reason,
Salvochea =
Right-wing "Libertarians" may despise the commie mentality, above.
Salvochea =
Right-wing "Libertarians" may despise the commie mentality, above.
So here (in a small illustration) is where I can't see Libertarian ideas as plausible:
Let's say I adopt such a philosophy for bbsam inc. At the end of every week, all the income is set in the middle of the table. It seems to each driver that there is plenty to go around. Each takes his "fair share" and leaves what he or she thinks is plenty for the corporation. All goes well for six months until vehicles begin to break down, not because of neglect but because as things get older, they break. But suddenly several mints of these bills cut significantly into what each driver sees as his "fair share". And although she knows the company has to survive for the good of all, she has some unexpected bills as well.
Two more months go by and an increase in work comp insurance comes along. Employees at bbsam inc. Are now getting restless. The "fair share" is getting smaller and smaller until one by one, it's just not worth it.
In a perfect world where all could see the big picture, maybe it works. But even in a small subset of 12 I think breakdown comes rapidly.
Let's say I adopt such a philosophy for bbsam inc. At the end of every week, all the income is set in the middle of the table. It seems to each driver that there is plenty to go around. Each takes his "fair share" and leaves what he or she thinks is plenty for the corporation. All goes well for six months until vehicles begin to break down, not because of neglect but because as things get older, they break. But suddenly several mints of these bills cut significantly into what each driver sees as his "fair share". And although she knows the company has to survive for the good of all, she has some unexpected bills as well.
Two more months go by and an increase in work comp insurance comes along. Employees at bbsam inc. Are now getting restless. The "fair share" is getting smaller and smaller until one by one, it's just not worth it.
In a perfect world where all could see the big picture, maybe it works. But even in a small subset of 12 I think breakdown comes rapidly.
So are we just supposed to wait for folks to come to this long view, common good philosophy? The natural grind will bring it about the way Marx predicted the uprising of the proletariat? In time, people will just start acting right because it's just the right thing to do? As astute as you are on historical study I find it difficult to think that's what you are saying. People have neither the patience nor the lack of self centeredness for that.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
No.
Marx was wrong in many areas but not in all areas.
When left to actually suffer the consequences of their actions? Yes. Just like touching a hot stove, for most people it only needs to happen once. But what happens if someone or a group of someones have a self interested benefit from someone continuing to touch the hot stove again and again? How do you keep that person touching the stove against their own interests and to the benefit of another?
Fallacy. You are using a collective conditioning not backed up by reality. Then explain me. How did I develop patience and abandon self centeredness? Explain Sleeve or Hoax and I mean no disrespect to others here for example that have made posts that show a grasp that something is seriously wrong with the current model of society. We may well differ in the "How" of moving beyond it but we all see the basic same problem and know something very different needs to be done. In a truly free world we would be allowed to try our different ways and we'd have to live with the consequences of our decisions.
People want to remain in the cave watching the wall on some level, even I recognize the comfort in just going along with the game plan given us. But if everything is so cut and dry perfect under the current model, why are the leaders of civilizations having to constantly lie to the people in their charge, keep such secrets from them never giving them all the details on any given issue? Everyone also has a point where they will finally turn around and look outside the cave opening and have a "WTf" moment but the real moment comes when they overcome fear and set out to do something different. More and more people on some level are beginning to do just that.
I think you know something is seriously wrong, something in your gut is gnawing away. Just like you challenged Ovah's religious comments with asking "who is you really trying to convince" that same application can be applied to you on the issue of libertarianism/anarchism.
I absolutely know there is something very wrong. I just don't think waiting for people to come to their senses will work. You will see a corporate oligarchy absolutely crush any such idea. It's not like they are confined to our borders. The same as in bbsam inc. I can't keep the workers from leaving me for greener pastures once it becomes clear that they will have to deal with the consequences of their decisions. We can't even bring ourselves to let the banks fail because of what it will do to main street.