Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours !

[wkmac]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Mac,
You make a lot of good points here, although I see many in a different light.
Rest assured that there is no smoke screen being thrown here. The same person under different name theory is a teamster ploy at best. As far as supporting the Apwa, I don't think that many of the nay sayers have taken the time to talk to the leaders of the APWA. I say this, because of my personal experience with them. I listened to them, asked questions and they showed me facts and figures that they could back up. Granted many of these things are theories that could be if the APWA became our BA, but they have a very impressive road map as to how they plan to pull this off. I could tell that this was something that was planned out very carefully, with much long hard work behind it.
I will continue to support there cause, although I agree that there are other stratagies that could have been used and possible been more effective on a different scale to start out. But my opinion of them and there efforts has not changed.

On another note, I think that you missed my point somewhat.
While I aplaud there efforts and success in what they have do in the 705 & 710.
There RAH! RAH! support the teamsters and build a stronger union cries, do not hold water, when they have already done the exact opposite of what they preach, when they broke away and did there own thing, and then to jump on others who want to do the same thing, only in a different way.
Well, that is very hypocritical, IMHO.

Appreciate the response Saw and I will agree that I'm impressed with both Van and Danny but I've had chances to directly communicate with Van some time back and was very impressed with not only his ideas but his straight forwardness on a variety of areas. His total honesty to give me straight answers rather than what I would like to hear I found very refreshing. I also saw firsthand some of the APWA cheerleaders saying things about their pension plan that was not true. Example was the idea of taking the last 2 years of raises on the current contract to buy us out of CS and move our assets to APWA and then we'd all get the big gravy payouts. As much as I wanted to he Van say that was true he informed me that was not the case in any way and that at the time he knew of know way to make that happen. What I would get in the future from APWA would only be based on years of service under their plan and that on retirement I get 2 checks, one from CS and one form APWA for whatever service level I met. I did like the fact that APWA had no problem whatsoever of my working elsewhere at whatever I choose to do. That is an issue we should push and pressure the union like hell to change, with no excuses or exceptions. Sadly, I don't even see the IBT Rah-Rahers even giving cause to parading that issue. To much coolaid maybe?


As to the Rah-Rah types, that goes both ways but to the point of defending the union and the "we are all one" blah, blah.... I think it very fair and obvious to say that if it was decided by the IBT leadership under the banner of "all for one and one for all" that they decided to take some of these good performing funds like 705's and reallocate some of their assets to CS and thus reduce their own payouts that you'd see that "collectivism" fly out the window so fast it'd make your head spin. Does the witching hour of next years federal legislation make that potential possible? Don't know and wouldn't think so but how many times have we thought something impossible with this union only to learn otherwise. Never say Never!

Sure, it may be easy for us to entertain cutting and running for the IBT because of circumstances but at the same time they should at least be honest enough to admit they like the status quo because their bed if feathered. Reverse the roles however and I'd venture to say we be laying out different arguments as well on our part so there you go!

Love it or hate it, APWA IMO is making the IBT feel some heat if not any other place than in the arena of ideas and public opinion and for that I'm grateful! Keep up the fight and the pressure but never, ever BS just to win the day. Tell it straight and true because the first order of winning someone over is to gain their trust and the only way to maintain that for the longhaul is to always tell it like it is whether it hurts or not. They may not like the answer but if they know they can take the info to the bank it sure makes the difference in the longrun.

Good luck with the cause!

 

[Cole]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Good points Saw & Wkmac!

There are other areas like Richmond VA that have their pesnions through their joint council I believe that are pretty descent too.

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Good points Saw & Wkmac!

There are other areas like Richmond VA that have their pesnions through their joint council I believe that are pretty descent too.

That is correct Cole!

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Appreciate the response Saw and I will agree that I'm impressed with both Van and Danny but I've had chances to directly communicate with Van some time back and was very impressed with not only his ideas but his straight forwardness on a variety of areas. His total honesty to give me straight answers rather than what I would like to hear I found very refreshing. I also saw firsthand some of the APWA cheerleaders saying things about their pension plan that was not true. Example was the idea of taking the last 2 years of raises on the current contract to buy us out of CS and move our assets to APWA and then we'd all get the big gravy payouts. As much as I wanted to he Van say that was true he informed me that was not the case in any way and that at the time he knew of know way to make that happen. What I would get in the future from APWA would only be based on years of service under their plan and that on retirement I get 2 checks, one from CS and one form APWA for whatever service level I met. I did like the fact that APWA had no problem whatsoever of my working elsewhere at whatever I choose to do. That is an issue we should push and pressure the union like hell to change, with no excuses or exceptions. Sadly, I don't even see the IBT Rah-Rahers even giving cause to parading that issue. To much coolaid maybe?


As to the Rah-Rah types, that goes both ways but to the point of defending the union and the "we are all one" blah, blah.... I think it very fair and obvious to say that if it was decided by the IBT leadership under the banner of "all for one and one for all" that they decided to take some of these good performing funds like 705's and reallocate some of their assets to CS and thus reduce their own payouts that you'd see that "collectivism" fly out the window so fast it'd make your head spin. Does the witching hour of next years federal legislation make that potential possible? Don't know and wouldn't think so but how many times have we thought something impossible with this union only to learn otherwise. Never say Never!

Sure, it may be easy for us to entertain cutting and running for the IBT because of circumstances but at the same time they should at least be honest enough to admit they like the status quo because their bed if feathered. Reverse the roles however and I'd venture to say we be laying out different arguments as well on our part so there you go!

Love it or hate it, APWA IMO is making the IBT feel some heat if not any other place than in the arena of ideas and public opinion and for that I'm grateful! Keep up the fight and the pressure but never, ever BS just to win the day. Tell it straight and true because the first order of winning someone over is to gain their trust and the only way to maintain that for the longhaul is to always tell it like it is whether it hurts or not. They may not like the answer but if they know they can take the info to the bank it sure makes the difference in the longrun.

Good luck with the cause!

I agree Mac,
I also remember the issue of taking our raises to buy our way out, and if I remember correctly it was Feeders that brought that up, because I had in depth talks with him about it. However, I think he intended that to be a hyothetical idea of one way of funding the buyout, if the company balked at paying for it. He was trying to show that there are different ways of skinning the cat.
As far as Van's honesty, I agree, he is bluntly honest in what he says. If he wasn't, I work in a center about 23 miles fron the hub that he works out of and he knows that if he was caught in a lie that I would be over there putting my boot where the sun don't shine.

 

[nospinzone]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Can't really say I have anything to add to what you guys have already said. I would only urge people to approach the situation with the same objectivity, open-mindness, and willingness to actively educate themselves.

As far as your suggestion to organize UPS parcel building by building-- the contract that IBT has with UPS is a national contract covering all units that don't have an individual contract such as Chicago. Thus, its all or nothing when it comes to APWA organizing Parcel.

Freight is a different story. Both IBT and APWA are attempting to organize building by building. IBT has Indy, and APWA is a baby's butt hair away from getting a safe majority at a few of the large ones. Only time will tell there.

 

[RockyRogue]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Freight is a different story. Both IBT and APWA are attempting to organize building by building. IBT has Indy, and APWA is a baby's butt hair away from getting a safe majority at a few of the large ones. Only time will tell there.

OK, WTF are you talking about, NOSPIN??? I've heard nothing about this organizing individual buildings by APWA. Which "large" Freight buildings are you talking about? Please elaborate. -Rocky

 

[705red]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

WE EARNED OURS!! No one gave us anything, we went out and took it! Cs is in bad shape i have never denied that, and i am interested in doing whatever i can to assist you in fixing it, except for the apwa fix and unless i see great benefits from a single employer fund, im against leaving a multiemployer fund.

I responded to this post because goose was attempting to paint myself and my local as a bunch of pre madonnas which we are not! I asked him several questions and he posted a reply but it wasnt to my questions it was to brother cole. Goose you better be ready to get called on all your bs you post![/quote

RED,

I understand what you are saying, although I don't agree with all of it.
The fact is that it is very frustrating to be in the position that we are in after 25 years of working for this company, and it amazes me that you can sit there and bash a group that is trying to do something about the situation by splitting off and changing to a single employer fund, when in essence that is exactly what you and local 705&710 did. You looked after yourselves and forget the rest. Why did you not say at the time, that this is what we want for all UPSers not just 705 & 710? You went out on your own and got yours.
That is why it is so hard to swallow your teamster unity, stick together, to build a stronger union line of rhetoric. You guys up there did the exact opposite of what you are preaching.

705 and 710 are 2 of the biggest teamster locals in the country. We never were under any national agreemnet with ups and since day 1 have had a seperate contract. Neither local belongs to a single employer fund, and represent all the trades in both locals. Maybe write to cs and pressure them to use the investment firms that 705 useses, now understand we are not 100% funded if im correct we are right around 80%. Now also realize that thousands of our members are ptimers and do not contribute to the pension fund.

 

[RockyRogue]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

705 and 710 are 2 of the biggest teamster locals in the country...now understand we are not 100% funded if im correct we are right around 80%. Now also realize that thousands of our members are ptimers and do not contribute to the pension fund.

Didn't know 705 and 710 were that big but it makes sense since Chicago is a rail and general transportation hub for the upper-Midwest. I didn't know the funding level for the pension but WOW...imagine if UPS paid into it for the part-timers, too. -Rocky

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

705 and 710 are 2 of the biggest teamster locals in the country. We never were under any national agreemnet with ups and since day 1 have had a seperate contract. Neither local belongs to a single employer fund, and represent all the trades in both locals. Maybe write to cs and pressure them to use the investment firms that 705 useses, now understand we are not 100% funded if im correct we are right around 80%. Now also realize that thousands of our members are ptimers and do not contribute to the pension fund.

Red,
Thanks for the insight. I for one am now getting a clearer picture of your situation up there.
What I don't understand is how were you never under the national contract agreement?
It would seem that if your two locals could operate independant of the national contract that, say a group such as CS employees should be able to work out a seperate agreement also, only in the CS agreement, maybe we could work out a deal to be in a single
employer fund. Eventually, we would have 200 different contracts and 200 different pension plans, what kind of mad house would that be.
What if we all just join 705's contract and pension plan?

 

[705red]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Red,
Thanks for the insight. I for one am now getting a clearer picture of your situation up there.
What I don't understand is how were you never under the national contract agreement?
It would seem that if your two locals could operate independant of the national contract that, say a group such as CS employees should be able to work out a seperate agreement also, only in the CS agreement, maybe we could work out a deal to be in a single
employer fund. Eventually, we would have 200 different contracts and 200 different pension plans, what kind of mad house would that be.
What if we all just join 705's contract and pension plan?

Everything thing must go through the midwest, and if we shut it down here it backs up the whole country. Now our contract needs work i will admit it i have seen some great language in others. Maybe we all could exchange copies of our contracts?

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Everything thing must go through the midwest, and if we shut it down here it backs up the whole country. Now our contract needs work i will admit it i have seen some great language in others. Maybe we all could exchange copies of our contracts?

I understand the importance of keeping your location running, and the log jamb that it would cause if it shut down, but, there had to be some point in time when the powers that be up there said, HA, we've got some leverage here because of our geographic location, so lets see what we can do on our own, negotiating our own contract.
Let me give you a scenario:

Lets say, louisville, KY air hub said, we have all this leverage because we are the biggest air hub. So, we are going to demand certain things and negotiate our own contract, away from the national agreement, and if they don't let us, well, we'll just close down there biggest air hub.
That would be considered a "wild cat strike" and would not be tolerated, legally or any other way.
So, I don't understand how you guys pulled off not being forced under the national agreement.
There had to be a loophole some place that allowed you to do so.

 

[705red]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

I understand the importance of keeping your location running, and the log jamb that it would cause if it shut down, but, there had to be some point in time when the powers that be up there said, HA, we've got some leverage here because of our geographic location, so lets see what we can do on our own, negotiating our own contract.
Let me give you a scenario:

Lets say, louisville, KY air hub said, we have all this leverage because we are the biggest air hub. So, we are going to demand certain things and negotiate our own contract, away from the national agreement, and if they don't let us, well, we'll just close down there biggest air hub.
That would be considered a "wild cat strike" and would not be tolerated, legally or any other way.
So, I don't understand how you guys pulled off not being forced under the national agreement.
There had to be a loophole some place that allowed you to do so.

Saw how is that a wildcat? We in chicago have struck 3xs in 95, 97, and again in 98 for supervisors working, these were legitimate strikes not a wildcat. In our local every carriers agreement is seperate not only ups. Ist sunday so i wont call any one about this loophole but i waill ask and get back to you this week sometime to see exactly how it works.

 

[RockyRogue]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

We in chicago have struck 3xs in 95, 97, and again in 98 for supervisors working, these were legitimate strikes not a wildcat.

705, how long and when was that '98 strike? I wasn't paying too much attention (not old enough to really care at the time) but I do recall hearing something about it. -Rocky

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Saw how is that a wildcat? We in chicago have struck 3xs in 95, 97, and again in 98 for supervisors working, these were legitimate strikes not a wildcat. In our local every carriers agreement is seperate not only ups. Ist sunday so i wont call any one about this loophole but i waill ask and get back to you this week sometime to see exactly how it works.

Maybe wildcat is the wrong termanology, but we must have a strike vote and it must pass before going out on strike. We can't just walk out and set up a picket line every time we see the company doing something that we don't like, such as sups working. I guess that is where you have the advantage. Management has been caught in contract violations many times in our center but just because they are doing something wrong in our one center doesn't mean that we can drag the rest of the nation out on strike. The disadvantage to your situation as I see it is that the company is dealing with a relatively small group of employees up there, compaired to the whole nation. So, other that you geographis location, what is to stop the company from terminating their relationship with the teamsters in your location and going non-union if they so desired?

 

[Cole]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

If I am not mistaken a Wildcat strike is against the union, and the company etc...

 

[705red]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

705, how long and when was that '98 strike? I wasn't paying too much attention (not old enough to really care at the time) but I do recall hearing something about it. -Rocky

The late summer and we shut them down around midnight and pulled the signs around 930am.

 

[705red]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Maybe wildcat is the wrong termanology, but we must have a strike vote and it must pass before going out on strike. We can't just walk out and set up a picket line every time we see the company doing something that we don't like, such as sups working. I guess that is where you have the advantage. Management has been caught in contract violations many times in our center but just because they are doing something wrong in our one center doesn't mean that we can drag the rest of the nation out on strike. The disadvantage to your situation as I see it is that the company is dealing with a relatively small group of employees up there, compaired to the whole nation. So, other that you geographis location, what is to stop the company from terminating their relationship with the teamsters in your location and going non-union if they so desired?

Saw were one of two of the biggest ups locals ny is as big or bigger not sure for sure. We have roughly about 13,000 upsers here and every time we have struck very few have crossed. We are a pretty tight group when it comes to enforcement of the contract. If ups would cut the teamsters loose here it would back up the system for weeks if not months. In chitown everyone is part of some sort of union, and all unions honor each others work stoppages. Ups was turned away in 97 by every union employed company while attempting to make deliveries. We willl use ambulatory picketingand shut down the whole city in the process.

Now its not easy here, our ups labor managers fire people at will! We have over 30 cases going to arbitration this year already, we both love to hate each other i believe!

 

[RockyRogue]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

The late summer and we shut them down around midnight and pulled the signs around 930am.

That's what I thought. I was in California in mid to late August that summer on vacation. I thought I remembered something about Chicago and UPS from that time.

In chitown everyone is part of some sort of union, and all unions honor each others work stoppages. Now its not easy here, our ups labor managers fire people at will! We have over 30 cases going to arbitration this year already, we both love to hate each other i believe!

Not true about "everyone," Red. Chicago is a union bastion, I'll grant you that. And I'm not anti-union whatsoever but unions need a facelift. They probably fire you guys for one, possibly two reasons and conceivably a combination of them: keep the union on its toes AND see what they can get away with . -Rocky

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Saw were one of two of the biggest ups locals ny is as big or bigger not sure for sure. We have roughly about 13,000 upsers here and every time we have struck very few have crossed. We are a pretty tight group when it comes to enforcement of the contract. If ups would cut the teamsters loose here it would back up the system for weeks if not months. In chitown everyone is part of some sort of union, and all unions honor each others work stoppages. Ups was turned away in 97 by every union employed company while attempting to make deliveries. We willl use ambulatory picketingand shut down the whole city in the process.

Now its not easy here, our ups labor managers fire people at will! We have over 30 cases going to arbitration this year already, we both love to hate each other i believe!

705,
Sounds like you guys have it together up there, but from the info that you have given, I come to the conclusion that we are talking apples and oranges, and maybe that is were the differences of opinion come into play.
You see, down here it is the exact opposite. We are in the minority, being unionized. The majority of workers down here are non-union, and hold great animosity towards those of us who are unionized. We go out on strike and for the most part, most people have the attitude, we don't feel sorry for you, you're already making more than the rest of us, so get your butt back to work or we'll come take your jobs.
There is very little union support down south, so we have to play a whole other ball game down here, and that is not even getting into "The right to work state" issues.
So, you see, we would love to have the power that you have up there, but it isn't happening down here. It takes years just to organize a small group down here. For the most part, people in the south are anti-union, so it is like, we are sitting out here on an island, and we are not recieving any help from the mainland(north).

 

[Cole]

Re: Local 705 out of Chicago negotiates their own contract and its better than yours

Alot of the problems with unions in the South, is based imho on old politicians and new, and they control the media, who will rarley give us a fair shake. For instance when we were on strike, I did several interviews, but they would twist everything I said; for instance one guy asked some questions and I stated "we know we make pretty descent wages, but we're not out here over that, some of our part-timers work close to 60 hrs a week, and are still classified part-time, and they're routinley shorted on their pay checks".

All they played on that was, "we know we make descent wages". That type thing happened over and over, so I finally told them there was no point to make a statement as they would edit and chop it to their own needs, and the guy from the local newspaper said, 'not me, but my boss hates Unions', such much for freedom of speech!

Also I am pretty sure the first union in the US was organized in the South, in South Carolina, but their has not been a big labor movement, as the media and others paint the unions in a bad light as often as possible, only pointing to some of the violence done in the early days, but they don't show that it was only to defend themselves initially from the legbrakers/thugs the company's would hire, and with police help etc...

That's why so many businesses are running this way, to hide from union labor, and then they leave the country, and our politicians voted for them to be able to do so, and in doing so stuck it to the very one's that pay taxes that ultimatley pay their salaries, only they don't have to negotiate raises/pension with their bosses; The American people, but can vote on their own pay etc..among themselves. This country has gotten things backwards and these politicians with their pockets open to any and everybody have forgotten who it is they are to represent.