Looking Again At Right to Work

[OptimusPrime]

As much as you all go on about Pro Union-If you were a part timer just starting out trying to pay bills and make some sort of money in this horrid economy and did not have the bias about the company you do now-would you join the Union if you had a choice. You will probably say you would but I guarantee you most of you would not. Not only is it expensive, but

I totally agree with this quote. I see it on a daily basis. People who only work enough days to keep their benefits, lazy employees that don't do more than 150 PPH and know you can't do anything about it. It also gives the people who have been there forever the false assumption that they don't have to do their job because they can just be backed by the Union. I love that I am in a RTW state, if I had to join the Union I probably would not work here. That's my choice, deal with it.

I really hate this generalization. There are bad apples at every job. But I think they are fewer and far between here at UPS. Some how, day and night, the majority of people here are busting ass, and getting the job done. And as for lazy, slow, unmotivated workers, that falls on management. They are all about retention numbers. I assume it's part of their bonus. If they really wanted these people gone, it could happen. But typically they are too lazy file the paper work.

 

[satellitedriver]

I am starting to love being old.
This topic/debate is just re-mashed hash.
I have lived both sides of the issue for the past 45yrs.
Work hard, save your money and put your trust in only those you can trust.
Companies will lie to you.
Unions will make promises they can not keep.

Take care,
Steve

 

[Astispumanti]

I may have the Union to thank for the benefits, but no thanks for not helping the part-timers pay wage in the last 30 years. It's all about the full-timers so until that changes-screw the Union. When they start caring about the part-timers, maybe I will care about the Union. Just think, when all of you retire, what's going to happen to the Union? More than likely with all the RTW states it will dissolve. This will happen because you have looked down on the part-timers so long and there is suck a lack of their input into the Union there will be no one left. You won't care though, because you have greased the wheels for your retirements and could care less of what happens to everyone else.

 

[Inthegame]

I am starting to love being old.
This topic/debate is just re-mashed hash.
I have lived both sides of the issue for the past 45yrs.
Work hard, save your money and put your trust in only those you can trust.
Companies will lie to you.
Unions will make promises they can not keep.

Take care,
Steve

It may be re-mashed hash but it's on the front burner in many state houses throughout the country because of big business backed special interests, specifically ALEC. I think it's important to remeber the basic philosophy of both sides in the capital/labor issue. One side has their sole interest and reason for existence based in profit. The other side has their sole interest and reason for existence based on welfare of participants. Of course personal profit overshadows some leaders on the union side and that casts a huge shadow over the responsible leaders. But profit casts a shadow that eclipses all on the capital side as that is their reason for being.

If unions make promises they can't keep it's because those same companies are lying to the unions.

 

[satellitedriver]

It may be re-mashed hash but it's on the front burner in many state houses throughout the country because of big business backed special interests, specifically ALEC. I think it's important to remeber the basic philosophy of both sides in the capital/labor issue. One side has their sole interest and reason for existence based in profit. The other side has their sole interest and reason for existence based on welfare of participants. Of course personal profit overshadows some leaders on the union side and that casts a huge shadow over the responsible leaders. But profit casts a shadow that eclipses all on the capital side as that is their reason for being.
Front burner, my back side.
Your paragraph is exactly the same re-hash baloney that that I have heard for the past 4 decades.
Name one solution that you presented in your argument.

If unions make promises they can't keep it's because those same companies are lying to the unions.

If unions make promises they can't keep it's because those same companies are lying to the unions.
I should not have to point out the flaw in your logic, but, I will in two words.
Central States.
UPS never missed a payment to CS and CS became "underfunded", by extremely poor management practice.
UPS dropped 6 billion dollars into saving the pensions of the hourly worker.
The teamsters did not add one freakin' dime.
UPS has met every fiduciary agreement in all the contracts.
The union promises and can not fulfill.
UPS promises and fulfills all it's promises.
Maybe, you might be confusing promises with lies.

 

[Inthegame]

If unions make promises they can't keep it's because those same companies are lying to the unions.
I should not have to point out the flaw in your logic, but, I will in two words.
Central States.
UPS never missed a payment to CS and CS became "underfunded", by extremely poor management practice.
UPS dropped 6 billion dollars into saving the pensions of the hourly worker.
The teamsters did not add one freakin' dime.
UPS has met every fiduciary agreement in all the contracts.
The union promises and can not fulfill.
UPS promises and fulfills all it's promises.
Maybe, you might be confusing promises with lies.

I must have hit a nerve, you're using big font...that's scary. I was responding to what you posted, not offering solutions for world peace.

Right to work legislation is on the front burner all over the country, specifically in Republican controlled states. If you don't realise that you've escaped Earths gravity.

You stated companies lie. UPS is a company, they lie. We are in agreement.

I'm not sure how you leaped to CS as an example of promises broken and placed that blame solely on unions. CS is a jointly trusteed operation so at the very least it is a shared failure. CS is a massive pension plan that has lost hundreds of participating companies that failed to keep their promises to their employees. The trustees (both union and company) that oversee the CS plan have little to do with companies failing to meet their obligations. That is a condition of the market in which they operate. This failure is what has caused the funding inequities in the CS plan, not "extremely poor management practice". UPS HAS kept it's fiduciary promise to its funds and has paid their share of their unfunded liability to release themselves of further future increased liability. But what goes unnoticed is the competition UPS has placed on other companies has forced many out of business thereby causing the very same increased withdrawal liabilty.

You don't put any money in a pension plan either because that benefit has been negotiated on your behalf by the union. To expect the Teamsters to fund a pension is illogical.

To your point of UPS fulfilling promises, do you not remember the 22.3 combo job lawsuit? Have you ever sat on a grievance panel or talked to a Business Represntative? UPS will bend every term of the agreement to it's end, often at the expense of employees.

It is my experience that companies always place profit, and any means to it, above all else; including honesty.

 

[PobreCarlos]

One might note here that "CS is a jointly trusteed operation", the "jointly" refers to a full HALF of the trustees representing ONE entity (i.e. - the Teamsters union), while the OTHER half represents the HUNDREDS of entities (many in competition with each other) who are the employers. On that basis, I wonder who controlled things? And how many trustees did UPS have on the board...and for how long?

As for the "hundreds of participating companies that failed to keep their promises", to not place the blame for that situation where the blame is due (i.e. - the Teamsters) is simply to ignore reality. While the industry as a whole prospered, Teamster-organized firms went out of business left and right. To say that there's no correlation just isn't reasonable.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

I may have the Union to thank for the benefits, but no thanks for not helping the part-timers pay wage in the last 30 years. It's all about the full-timers so until that changes-screw the Union. When they start caring about the part-timers, maybe I will care about the Union. Just think, when all of you retire, what's going to happen to the Union? More than likely with all the RTW states it will dissolve. This will happen because you have looked down on the part-timers so long and there is suck a lack of their input into the Union there will be no one left. You won't care though, because you have greased the wheels for your retirements and could care less of what happens to everyone else.

well let the tears start falling when you cant make production numbers or recite the 10 point commentary or what ever example is the norm at your hub,or you just plain out screw up and your sitting in the office with a caring and forgiving manager{ups is known for them}who decides your expendable{because you are}.i bet youll want a union rep to bail you out or at least go to bat for you......but wait,you want the right to refuse joining a union.....well dont you?????well dont you,punk?

 

[Astispumanti]

No I would not run to the Union. Because if I screwed up I would be a grown up and suffer the consequences, not act like a spoiled child running to the Union because I was grounded because I did not do my chores. There should be no difference between working at UPS and working for Jo Blow down the road. If some of these people worked the way they do here in another job atmosphere, they would be fired in a heart beat. You are an employee of a business, you have responsibilities and expectations that you are required to do-so do them; be it memorizing dok, writing and speaking it verbatim-that is part of your job, quit whining about it and just do it! Each and every person is expendable, when everyone starts to realize that and work accordingly, then there would be no need to run to the Union.

 

[brownmonster]

I do not disagree but given the choice I would still pick Union.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

No I would not run to the Union. Because if I screwed up I would be a grown up and suffer the consequences, not act like a spoiled child running to the Union because I was grounded because I did not do my chores. There should be no difference between working at UPS and working for Jo Blow down the road. If some of these people worked the way they do here in another job atmosphere, they would be fired in a heart beat. You are an employee of a business, you have responsibilities and expectations that you are required to do-so do them; be it memorizing dok, writing and speaking it verbatim-that is part of your job, quit whining about it and just do it! Each and every person is expendable, when everyone starts to realize that and work accordingly, then there would be no need to run to the Union.

you just passed the test, run out to k-mart and get yourself a clip on tie and notebook,now you can become management material.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I do not disagree but given the choice I would still pick Union.

Suppose this was one of your daughters working the preload for some pocket money while going to school. She has no intention of making UPS her career--it is just a job. She is still covered by your insurance. Wisconsin is RTW. Would you encourage her to join the union, even though she is most likely not to use any of the benefits, or would you encourage her not to join so that she can keep more of what she earns in her pocket?

 

[Catatonic]

No I would not run to the Union. Because if I screwed up I would be a grown up and suffer the consequences, not act like a spoiled child running to the Union because I was grounded because I did not do my chores. There should be no difference between working at UPS and working for Jo Blow down the road. If some of these people worked the way they do here in another job atmosphere, they would be fired in a heart beat. You are an employee of a business, you have responsibilities and expectations that you are required to do-so do them; be it memorizing dok, writing and speaking it verbatim-that is part of your job, quit whining about it and just do it! Each and every person is expendable, when everyone starts to realize that and work accordingly, then there would be no need to run to the Union.

Assuming you are a driver, how do you feel about the almost certainty that if you did not have the Teamsters, you would be paid about 70% of what you make now, you would pay around $2000 - 5000 a year for you Health benefits, and your pension would be converted to a 401k match program.

I tend to agree with the gist of your post as you positioned it but the really important aspects of the UPS Union representation are the financial benefits.

 

[menotyou]

Suppose this was one of your daughters working the preload for some pocket money while going to school. She has no intention of making UPS her career--it is just a job. She is still covered by your insurance. Wisconsin is RTW. Would you encourage her to join the union, even though she is most likely not to use any of the benefits, or would you encourage her not to join so that she can keep more of what she earns in her pocket?

Should someone encourage college students to collect food stamps, instead of getting a part-time job? Should people who win millions from the lottery still collect welfare? Just because you CAN take advantage of a situation, doesn't mean that morally, its a good idea.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Should someone encourage college students to collect food stamps, instead of getting a part-time job? Should people who win millions from the lottery still collect welfare? Just because you CAN take advantage of a situation, doesn't mean that morally, its a good idea.

I will tell you that if I were a PTer working here just for the pocket money and if given the choice I would not join the union. Please tell me the benefit to a PTer who has no intention of making this their career, will not be working the 5 years needed to be vested and can still be covered by their parents health insurance of joining the union.

 

[Astispumanti]

If I was a driver, yes the need for the Union is there, but as a part-time loader-no there is no need for the Union. There is no benefit for a part-timer. Yeah, health insurance is great, but when you have to wait a year to get it and another 6 months for any dependents, tell me how that helps? If you are already paying for your own insurance, every dime you don't give away to the Union is another that can go to those bills. Until benefits kick in-why join? You are spending money on something you won't see for a year-and then most workers don't last that long to even see that. It's the Union being greedy. Why not ask for initiation and dues after a year? You know those workers are invested and in for the long term and would be more willing to join rather than be asked for money from the git go. And don't charge for the year past dues-that's greedy.

 

[brownIEman]

Assuming you are a driver, how do you feel about the almost certainty that if you did not have the Teamsters, you would be paid about 70% of what you make now, you would pay around $2000 - 5000 a year for you Health benefits, and your pension would be converted to a 401k match program.

I tend to agree with the gist of your post as you positioned it but the really important aspects of the UPS Union representation are the financial benefits.

This argument is a good one for drivers in RTW states. However, it fails when applied to PT employees. How would you feel as a PT employee knowing that a non-union PT package handler at FedEx ground starts at around $2 more per hour than you?

That being said, I think PT should join the union, if for no other reason than to vote against any silly strike authorization votes and against any official who will not fight for more pay for PT ranks and against any contract that does not include them.

 

[wkmac]

Shikha Dalmia, writing in Reason (“Are Right to Work Laws the New Slavery?” April 26), dismisses most union objections to “right to work” laws. But she concedes that on one issue — the requirement that unions provide representation for scabs who don’t pay dues — unions are “on more solid ground.”
But, she continues, unions themselves are partly to blame. “They are required to represent all workers in exchange for monopoly rights over collective bargaining in the workplace. That is the Faustian bargain they made in the Wagner Act.”
The problem is, she makes this sound primarily like a perk for the unions. She neglects to mention its value to employers, or more generally the way Wagner reflects the interests of employers.

read the rest at:
Shikha Dalmia: Half-Right on "Right to Work"

 

[Inthegame]

Suppose this was one of your daughters working the preload for some pocket money while going to school. She has no intention of making UPS her career--it is just a job. She is still covered by your insurance. Wisconsin is RTW. Would you encourage her to join the union, even though she is most likely not to use any of the benefits, or would you encourage her not to join so that she can keep more of what she earns in her pocket?

To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes who said "taxes are the price we pay for civilized society" union dues are the necessary requirement for effective contracts and representation.
Would you encourage your daughter to drive without auto insurance? She could keep more of what she earns by not buying insurance. How about not paying taxes because some money supports wars she doesn't believe in. I'd encourage my daughter to work anywhere but the preload at UPS for extra money with the present wage structure, but if she insisted on UPS, I'd strongly encourage her to join the union if she were in a RTW state. I'd also encourage her to get involved with the union and raise hell over the low wages. If everyone took your advice (a full timer benefitting from negotiated agreements that skew to full timers) there would be less negotiation power available to all Teamsters, therefore your full time and future pt'ers wages/bennys would be compromised. Strength comes from numbers, and lowering those numbers doesn't get one stronger. Even if your daughters original intention was to work a couple years and move on, many of us had that same intention but made UPS a career. In my area, there are many college degreed drivers. The best route to full time is through part time.
Wisconsin is not RTW. Act 10 stripped public employees of all collective bargaining rights with a slight exception to wages capped at CPI. As a close to home comparison that's one page left in the UPS agreement. No seniority, no bidding, no grievance procedure.

 

[PobreCarlos]

Upstate;

Wisconsin is not a RTW state in the sense that Indiana became recently. The governor's efforts in that direction pertained to gov't employees only. I.e. - as I understand it, she won't have any choice in joining, or at least in paying what amounts to full dues. (which, after I initially posted this, I noticed was already stated by "inthe game"....sorry).