Personal and Economic Freedom for Individuals

[Turdferguson]

You mean like my mother who was born blind in a clapboard house with no electricity or running water?
Neither her mother nor father could read.
She worked hard and got a scholarship to the Alabama School for the Blind.
People can pull themselves up through their efforts.
There are many things one can't imagine until they experience them.
My father was blind too.
I observed how my parents and even me were denigrated, shunned and even cursed at.
Being born Black or Blind in America has it's challenges.

I can't begin to tell you all the bigoted and ignorant things said to me in relation to my achievements in spite of having Blind parents.

I was speaking more from a race based bigotry .
But let's take your example.
Not every one (sic) is created equal. You and your family should be commended for what you and they overcame to be a success in life. She sounds like an extraordinary person, but not everyone can overcome the obstacles placed in front of them by life.
I'll use the example of food stamps.
Are there some who will abuse the system. Yes. But if it keeps some kid from going hungry I can live with that. I will make an assumption that the food stamp program is one of those entitlement programs that makes your blood boil. Here is a quote for what the exorbitant cost of that program costs each American.
"In 2012, the average American taxpayer making $50,000 per year paid just $36 towards the food stamps program. That’s just ten cents a day! That’s less than the cost of a gumball."
So are you telling me that paying out that dime a day is such a burden to you, and offends you so much that you would rather see some kid who's family is not as strong willed as yours was to overcome the obstacles life placed in front of them starve? That dime a day is so precious to you that it's ok for people who truly need help should suffer because some lazy guy abuses the system?

 

[Turdferguson]

Disinformation your specialty?

Enlightenment *

 

[bbsam]

People can pull themselves up through their efforts.
There are many things one can't imagine until they experience them.

You mean like my mother who was born blind in a clapboard house with no electricity or running water?
Neither her mother nor father could read.
She worked hard and got a scholarship to the Alabama School for the Blind.
My father was blind too.
I observed how my parents and even me were denigrated, shunned and even cursed at.
Being born Black or Blind in America has it's challenges.

I can't begin to tell you all the bigoted and ignorant things said to me in relation to my achievements in spite of having Blind parents.

But ya know what? Sometimes I think this country just goes out of it's way to make it hard for people to pull themselves up and make the country better. Whether it's college affordability, technology pushing generations aside or stagnant wages, these are all poor excuses. We are a very, very rich nation and the way our wealth is distributed (by market or by politics) really sucks.

 

[Catatonic]

But ya know what? Sometimes I think this country just goes out of it's way to make it hard for people to pull themselves up and make the country better. Whether it's college affordability, technology pushing generations aside or stagnant wages, these are all poor excuses. We are a very, very rich nation and the way our wealth is distributed (by market or by politics) really sucks.

I can't disagree with any of your concerns.
So far, I have not seen any government successfully address the wealth disparity while still maintaining and growing a vibrant economy with jobs that the masses can do.
The USA education system is failing the country and the students ... it does not prepare students for the type of jobs where people are needed. Chinese and Indian people are filling many of the jobs that our schools failed to prepare our citizens for.

I pay for my grandson to go to an innovative school that use Project based approaches to analyze and address issues/assignments. He was withering in the teach for testing public school system that pushes "learning facts" so they can pass National Government tests.

 

[Catatonic]

I was speaking more from a race based bigotry .
But let's take your example.
Not every one (sic) is created equal. You and your family should be commended for what you and they overcame to be a success in life. She sounds like an extraordinary person, but not everyone can overcome the obstacles placed in front of them by life.
I'll use the example of food stamps.
Are there some who will abuse the system. Yes. But if it keeps some kid from going hungry I can live with that. I will make an assumption that the food stamp program is one of those entitlement programs that makes your blood boil. Here is a quote for what the exorbitant cost of that program costs each American.
"In 2012, the average American taxpayer making $50,000 per year paid just $36 towards the food stamps program. That’s just ten cents a day! That’s less than the cost of a gumball."
So are you telling me that paying out that dime a day is such a burden to you, and offends you so much that you would rather see some kid who's family is not as strong willed as yours was to overcome the obstacles life placed in front of them starve? That dime a day is so precious to you that it's ok for people who truly need help should suffer because some lazy guy abuses the system?

I'm confused!
I wasn't aware I was against helping out children getting nourishment especially since those meal programs were in place and utilized by myself when I was in public school and even Ga Tech. I had to work around the school (in the lunchroom, library, etc.) to pay for my meals but my mother thought that was good for me to learn responsibility. Now mothers protest when their kids are asked to work to repay for their meals at school.

As for food stamps, they were not around when I was growing up but there was food distribution to the poor but it was in the form of actual foodstuff. No steaks or prepared foods were distributed.
If Food Stamps or WIC were more restrictive, I would be more supportive of them but when you see people paying with WIC for steaks, prepared foods from the Deli, etc., you feel there is something very wrong with the system. I don't eat as well (expensively) as some of these WIC people do although I don't really care.
I could eat filet mignons every night or go out to expensive restaurants but that is not the way I was brought up and it shows why these people don't have wealth because they live beyond their means.

 

[Turdferguson]

I'm confused!
I wasn't aware I was against helping out children getting nourishment especially since those meal programs were in place and utilized by myself when I was in public school and even Ga Tech. I had to work around the school (in the lunchroom, library, etc.) to pay for my meals but my mother thought that was good for me to learn responsibility. Now mothers protest when their kids are asked to work to repay for their meals at school.

As for food stamps, they were not around when I was growing up but their was food distribution to the poor but it was in the form of actual foodstuff. No steaks or prepared foods were distributed.
If Food Stamps or WIC were more restrictive, I would be more supportive of them but when you see people paying with WIC for steaks, prepared foods from the Deli, etc., you feel there is something very wrong with the system. I don't eat as well (expensively) as some of these WIC people do although I don't really care.
I could eat filet mignons every night or go out to expensive restaurants but that is not the way I was brought up and it shows why these people don't have wealth because they live beyond their means.

If you are against government entitlements you are against poor children getting nourishment. The average person on food stamps gets $126.00 a month. A vast majority of them aren't buying steak and lobster.

 

[Brownslave688]

If you are against government entitlements you are against poor children getting nourishment. The average person on food stamps gets $126.00 a month. A vast majority of them aren't buying steak and lobster.

Don't have kids.

 

[TearsInRain]

opposition to welfare programs is dumb because it's relative pennies out of the budget for a massive gain in stability and opportunity for the lower class to raise themselves to the middle class

when 3/4 of your budget includes defense spending that is out of control and a poorly managed retirement system, why focus on the zero impact items

Don't have kids.

let's be real, this is a terrible policy answer for the advancement of human civilization

all the "don't have kids" mantra ensures is that your culture dies from the population pressures of societies that don't have a hedonistic suicide in mind for their lives

 

[Catatonic]

If you are against government entitlements you are against poor children getting nourishment. The average person on food stamps gets $126.00 a month. A vast majority of them aren't buying steak and lobster.

OK, this is not a well thought out statement:
If you are (A) against government entitlements you are (B) against poor children getting nourishment.

(A) does not imply (B). That is straight out of the MSM and Faux news tools to destroy an argument when they can't use logic or the truth.

I am against many government entitlements that give money/funds/services to Corporations, wealthy people, etc. but I am not against helping out kids especially up to age 16.
I happen to strongly believe in education in the STEM areas.
I strongly do not support educational assistance in English, history, arts, etc. ... let the rich people's kids major in that.

As you can see, I am a very discriminating person ... I only want government to support those things that make our country stronger and help it's citizens to to become an employee in a job that the country needs.
We don't need more unemployable English majors or lawyers or artists or even more musicians (that belief certainly contradicts my desires).

 

[rod]

 

[Catatonic]

(A) Opposition to welfare programs is dumb because it's relative pennies out of the budget for a massive gain in stability and opportunity for the lower class to raise themselves to the middle class

(B) When 3/4 of your budget includes defense spending that is out of control and a poorly managed retirement system, why focus on the zero impact items

(C)

Don't have kids.

Let's be real, this is a terrible policy answer for the advancement of human civilization
All the "don't have kids" mantra ensures is that your culture dies from the population pressures of societies that don't have a hedonistic suicide in mind for their lives

First off, good responses ...
(A)Unfortunately, welfare programs don't create "massive gains in stability and opportunity for the lower class to raise themselves to the middle class", at least in the USA.
The reason the USA government should do this is to keep the non-achievers from revolting and destroying other individuals economic achievements.

(B) Trump's increasing of the Military/Defense budget is just plain STUPID. He should be cutting the budget in half.


(C) It was a flippant statement and your response is spot on!

 

[moreluck]

According to Fancy Pelosi, welfare creates jobs in America.

 

[TearsInRain]

First off, good responses ...
(A)Unfortunately, welfare programs don't create "massive gains in stability and opportunity for the lower class to raise themselves to the middle class", at least in the USA.
The reason the USA government should do this is to keep the non-achievers from revolting and destroying other individuals economic achievements.

(B) Trump's increasing of the Military/Defense budget is just plain STUPID. He should be cutting the budget in half.


(C) It was a flippant statement and your response is spot on!

A. so it doesn't create stability but it prevents destruction? that's kinda what stability is and what i had in mind

B. trumps proposed increase is dumb but our defense budget has been out of control since the end of the cold war, arguably before

 

[Catatonic]

According to Fancy Pelosi, welfare creates jobs in America.

What do you think?

 

[BrownArmy]

A Libertarian values and believes in personal and economic freedom for individuals.

I ran across this definition and I like it better than the old moniker "fiscally conservative and socially liberal".

I particularly like it because I don't like being defined by alternate names for Democrats and Republicans...
.
.

It's okay I guess.

However, I also believe in 'personal and economic freedom for individuals'.

So are we on the same page?

My guess is (while our Venn diagrams may randomly coincide), you and I have radically different ideas about the role of government or the role of individuals within a cohesive society, etc.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the thread title, that doesn't mean I'm a Libertarian.

So...

What's your question?

Are you looking for a soundbite to sum up your stance about things?

I'm not saying you are, but your new moniker of Libertarianism casts a wide net that sweeps up people like me.

IDK, maybe be more specific?

 

[Catatonic]

It's okay I guess.

However, I also believe in 'personal and economic freedom for individuals'.

So are we on the same page?

My guess is (while our Venn diagrams may randomly coincide), you and I have radically different ideas about the role of government or the role of individuals within a cohesive society, etc.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the thread title, that doesn't mean I'm a Libertarian.

So...

What's your question?

Are you looking for a soundbite to sum up your stance about things?

I'm not saying you are, but your new moniker of Libertarianism casts a wide net that sweeps up people like me.

IDK, maybe be more specific?

I just wanted to create a thread where sincere discussions could take place ... really nothing more.

Education
My personal believe is that the US Central Government should provide/support infrastructure so that all individuals can advance as far as they can in the STEM fields of study even up to a PhD but only if there is not enough US citizens to fill all the jobs.
Citizens who want to study in fields where there is no shortage should pay their own way past high school.

Healthcare
I believe the US Central Government should provide a National Healthcare System where any USA citizen can be treated for physical and mental health issues. Private businesses can provide healthcare plans as well if they want to have their employees enjoy a better and more comprehensive plan than the USA Healthcare system.

How about those as a start?

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Don't have kids.

We need them to prop up social security and medicare. That way people can spend the last 30 years of their lives sitting on their asses in government funded nursing homes.

 

[Catatonic]

We need them to prop up social security and medicare.

That is the most immediate reason.

 

[BrownArmy]

I generally agree.

Do 'general' Libertarians agree with you?

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

According to Fancy Pelosi, welfare creates jobs in America.

According to Fancy Pelosi Walmart, welfare creates jobs in America.

fixed it for you