Pilots - Here we go!

[BrownBusDriver]

Thanks guys, kind words.

BrownBusDriver

 

[BrownBusDriver]

Would you like to clarify where you achieve your extensive knowledge of the incident? I don't have the official story yet, just the regular poop, so enlighten me with some greater detail to support yourself. From what I understand, the greater damage to the aircraft in question actually occured in the removal of the aircraft from the runway, according to a management friend directly to me.

Are you a loader, a ramp worker? Yes that is a tough job. I have had tough jobs also. I have even loaded the freight, fueled the aircraft, changed a tire, a starter, and drove a fork lift...not here, but in a previous life.

Then again, I don't assume I have a complete knowledge of your job.<G>

BrownBusDriver

 

[BrownBusDriver]

I am not familiar with that event. When did it happen? Where?

By the way, management crews were the same uniform, and drive the 727...and yes, we actually have some people who have scabbed in both the line group and management.

Last time I checked, the IPA didn't have a say so over who got hired.

 

[tieguy]

To tell you the exact numbers, I don't know. Our negotations are kept rather confidential until the end.

I am curious I saw this quote where you stated you did not know the numbers and others posts where you seemed to be saying you were being offered less earnings in the future. Why do you feel you were offered less. How much less?

 

[dannyboy]

They do not follow our contract, they test and break it regularly. This is systematic and premeditated.

Those are honest observations. Is the a company who's managment is awarded for integrity. I don't see it.

So what is the big deal. Managment does this all the time on the ground portion of the company.

Kinda like track side services for Nascar. Management has us drop of the packages for them (managment) to deliver to the final destination. I believe that to be subcontracting?

d

 

[dannyboy]

The company then tried to furlough 100 pilots, at a time where we were still working full schedules. We decided not to work days off, and the company decided not to furlough

They do that in the ground portion of UPS too. They call it planned day. See it works this way. They set the numbers to reflect what the driver should be able to do in a normal day. Then they cut back on the number of routes they send out every day. So they either send drivers home, have them working two part time shifts, or just dont hire any new drivers in 5 years, even though the volume is growing each year. That way the work day for many drivers is 10-12 hours long each day.

And would be much longer still, were it not for the federal government stepping in and placing a ceiling on how many hours can be worked.

In many places, were it not for managment doing hourly work, the packages would never get delivered. Or in the case of the preload, placed out for delivery.

d

 

[BrownBusDriver]

So what is the big deal. Managment does this all the time on the ground portion of the company.

From you perspective, maybe not a big deal, but from all I know from other air operations, even those whose relationship has gone really down hill, we are the exception. (American Air, Delta, Northwest....)

I tend to the the contract as a document to be followed to the best of one's ability by BOTH sides who signed it. Again, this is an integrity issue. I know that the mechanics had their contract "tested" very agressively by the company within weeks of signing it.

Maybe Nicholson is right with his comments to the company this week that our corporate labor department is "out of control".

Would not trying to operate under the contract we all agreed to instead of spend time and money trying to bypass it not ultimately provide a better work force, more willing to go the extra mile?

I too have read the UPS Management handbook, and it has alot of passages concerning these types of integrity issues. I will have to look up some and quote them for you.

Again, here lies the long and twisted road to the reason UPS has so many labor issues vs. many other companies.

BrownBusDriver

 

[tieguy]

Actually, even as a Capt at the top of the pay scale, not that much.

I'm sorry I saw that quote on one of the message boards with a link attached for the source . I'll see if I can find it again. I believe the quote figure was for a 10 year captain making 205,000 a year. Does this mean you are not a 10 year captain yet?

"I don't consider it inadequate, and never stated so, but I would think you don't come to work, accepting that your future is going to be less profitable at a time the company is so profitable. Where is the equity in that?"

Thus my question as to why you thought you were being offered less. From what I saw the starting salary for a UPS pilot is unusually low. The top rate seems to be in the upper tier of the pilot scale. I would agree that the starting wage should probably be higher. I am confused though why this issue may be a sticking point with pilots who primarily are not affected by it. During the course of many union negotiations less is usually given to the "unborn" those not with us so more of the total compensation package can be awarded to those presently working for the company.

"If you want to argue just compensation, well, what is just. Million upon millions for management around the country, even for poor performance."

I fully understand you are probably psyching yourself up for a long labor dispute or even a strike and thus you may be posting with passion when you make the above statement. But I am trying to figure out why you think UPS management is being paid millions for poor performance? Do you have any specific managment people you were referencing? Very few UPS management even make a million a year and most of those do so drawing interest off investments collected over the years. If you're not referring to UPS management specifically then are you trying to compare your profession to that of corporate ceos who run large corperations that provide thousands of jobs per corporation?

Our company is well managed from a fiscal stand point, and I respect that. But, am I to expect less in the future, because I work for a profitable company in a profitable industry, because other who do the same type of work in a less profitable industry are taking pay cuts? I would suspect if the day when this company finds itself there, the pilots would be up to carrying our fair share of the burden, just as many of the pilots of passenger carriers are now doing.

Again the question as to why you think you're being offered a pay cut if negotiations have been kept confidential.

I chose to be a pilot. Frankly, it has was not for the money. I was just a kid that dreamed of flying from aircraft carriers for his country. That was then, this is now. This is a business, not the service. I wish everyone the best to maximize their ability to leverage their skills for compensation. The trend in this country is becoming much to weighted in the direction of management compensation. It is some 400 to 1 now according to the GAO.

Another point that does not seem to be relevant here since you probably make about 3 times what the average management person at UPS makes?

We are a very skilled group..and UPS for the most part didn't pay for that experience/training, though they do provide excellent training here. I have always been amazed at how well our pilots and management keep this stuff out of the training center. It is appreciated by every pilot here.

I would also make a case for the skill of a package driver who can dump 150 stops a day without any service disconnects. Or the feeder driver who not only has to have the skill to drive under all types of conditions but also has a lot closer contact with other drivers then you will ever have. How do you rate your skill compared to them.

End the end, we are worth what we negoitate, even the management, but to buy into the idea that the pilots are going to destroy the company's profitablility is just not truthful.

I agree but only in comparing youself to other pilots. At the same time I don't think thats necessarily the logic required to price ourselves out of the market. What makes your compensation worth 3 times a feeder drivers compensation? What makes your compensation worth 5 times a paramedics compensation? What factor do you believe the other airlines that were once very profitable and now face financial difficulty should play in the decision of what is fair? Do you believe that your compensation should be above and beyond any other airlines just because UPS may presently in todays world be able to afford more? If UPS lost profitability in the future by say 30 percent would you be willing to take a 30 percent pay cut to compensate? Just trying to gauge how you think this should work.

As for job envy, it exist, and as I have said previously, I try to keep a humble attitude in how blessed that I have been in my career, but I have also worked hard to create these opportunities.

I hope your not offended but the envy I might feel is that you are paid so well for so little work. Everyone else at UPS even the incompetent management work much harder than you and actually have more of an impact on customer satisfaction then you do. Your impact on our service will increase as we continue to expand overseas but for now the brown drivers and the package handlers pay the bills. Including yours that we should all feel so envious over.

"Being a guy flying night cargo has never been the most glamorous job in the world, but it does provide much stability it would seem."

How glamorous would it be to pull a set of doubles through 6 inches of snow. How glamourous would it be to dump 250 stops during peak. You make more than anyone else. You work less hours and you get to parade around in those pretty military style uniforms. Seems pretty glamorous to me.

"Label us greedy, but I feel that our responsibility and skills to provide access to a world wide network, along with our continued commitment to providing the safest and reliable airline that it can be is worth the investment we are asking. Some don't agree I guess."

I would never label you greedy. I do agree your safety record is outstanding and I do think you deserve to be one of the best compensated in your profession. I just wonder if you know how good you have it. I don't agree with the idea that you earn that compensation by trying to destroy the company that provides that compensation. Since you do appear to have appointed yourself the pilots spokes person on this board I thought I might ask you a few tough questions while most everyone else is busy bending over to kiss your rear end.

 

[moreluck]

way to go tie!!

 

[ok2bclever]

Yes well done, faked sincerity of concern for an employee while denigrating them and any that would support them as much as possible.

Bravo, although practice apparently doesn't makes perfect after all.

"stereotypical deceitful management, trying to rip the belly out of the employee with a smile on the face and a lie on the lips."

I remember seeing that quote on a message board with a link attached.

I'll see if I can locate it again.

 

[tieguy]

Yes well done, faked sincerity of concern for an employee while denigrating them and any that would support them as much as possible.

I believe my dear friend OK is referring to the unions actions in 97 when they faked concern for the well being of the teamsters while denigrating anyone who disagreed. Its a remarkable step in his awakening and I applaud him for taking such a curageous step.

I am however afraid that the pilots union may again lead the teamsters into a second act of suicide on the premise that the teamsters "owe them one" for the galant way in which the pilots vacationed on their 200,000 salaries in August of 97 in "support" of the teamsters. A true sacrifice this was. Why by August 15th some pilots actually had to forego the caviar and champagne as their waist lines bulged from the excesses of such a lavious lifestyle. A true sacrifice on the part of these pilots as they vacationed in venice supporting teamsters who were merely risking their jobs, homes, cars , childrens educations and yes even food on their tables. And what precipatated such a sacrifice the very same issue that is currently number one on many teamster agendas the pension. The teamsters faked concern that the company was trying to steal their pension. In fact they were fearfull that in the process of negotiation the company might actually reveal how poorly the teamsters had managed these pension funds. Very descriptive. Faked concern for the well being of UPS employees precipitated by the teamsters union. That covers it.

I'll now await a response from Thurston Howell brownbusdriver the third and his rabble of boot lickers as they tell me how their cause is a just one and the company is trying to steal them blind. Seems I've heard this one before. I wonder what kind of shape the central states pension would be in right now if Ron Carey had let the debate continue rather than rushing out the door on august 31st.

 

[trickpony1]

ok2bc,
If I knew how to vote I'd give you a 5 on your recitation of that quote.

 

[Unregistered]

Seems I've heard this one before. I wonder what kind of shape the central states pension would be in right now if Ron Carey had let the debate continue rather than rushing out the door on august 31st.

I'd venture to say there would be no CSPF today if that were to have happened.

 

[Unregistered]

You're probably right it would have been bought out by a healthy jointly administered UPSer only plan.

 

[BrownBusDriver]

Actually if I remember correctly, the Wall Street Journal set the record straight on the state of Teamsters funds vs. the offerings of UPS.

Thurston huh, I wish<G>. Tie guy, I guess that means you ware the prescribed "uniform" of management. So of the older guys tell me management early on object to the pilots uniforms because it included a tie. Wow, the pressures of upper level decision making.<G>

I think the dictator part of your description is the truer statement.

Standing by for incoming.

BrownBusDriver

 

[BrownBusDriver]

I'm sorry I saw that quote on one of the message boards with a link attached for the source . I'll see if I can find it again. I believe the quote figure was for a 10 year captain making 205,000 a year. Does this mean you are not a 10 year captain yet?

Actually, I'm 11th year, and I don't make that.

Thus my question as to why you thought you were being offered less. From what I saw the starting salary for a UPS pilot is unusually low. The top rate seems to be in the upper tier of the pilot scale. I would agree that the starting wage should probably be higher. I am confused though why this issue may be a sticking point with pilots who primarily are not affected by it. During the course of many union negotiations less is usually given to the "unborn" those not with us so more of the total compensation package can be awarded to those presently working for the company.

The current contract does award more percentage wise to the Captains. I would hope we would work harder on increasing the FO and FE pay, while preserving the dollar value for the Captains pay.

I fully understand you are probably psyching yourself up for a long labor dispute or even a strike and thus you may be posting with passion when you make the above statement. But I am trying to figure out why you think UPS management is being paid millions for poor performance? Do you have any specific managment people you were referencing? Very few UPS management even make a million a year and most of those do so drawing interest off investments collected over the years. If you're not referring to UPS management specifically then are you trying to compare your profession to that of corporate ceos who run large corperations that provide thousands of jobs per corporation?

There are times during this negotations that both the company and union have talked about compensation, but the truth is we haven't to my knowledge even made it past the retirement and health care issues to compensation, so any information to that is at best rumors.

Again the question as to why you think you're being offered a pay cut if negotiations have been kept confidential.


Another point that does not seem to be relevant here since you probably make about 3 times what the average management person at UPS makes?

I think that there are too many managers at this company period. What would the profits look like if we were as lean on managers are we stay in both drivers and pilots?


I would also make a case for the skill of a package driver who can dump 150 stops a day without any service disconnects. Or the feeder driver who not only has to have the skill to drive under all types of conditions but also has a lot closer contact with other drivers then you will ever have. How do you rate your skill compared to them.

I don't know. Never delivered or drove a truck professionally. Sometimes that seems to be the real heart burn with many managers I encounter here. How do you feel about the management pilots salaries?


I agree but only in comparing youself to other pilots. At the same time I don't think thats necessarily the logic required to price ourselves out of the market. What makes your compensation worth 3 times a feeder drivers compensation? What makes your compensation worth 5 times a paramedics compensation? What factor do you believe the other airlines that were once very profitable and now face financial difficulty should play in the decision of what is fair? Do you believe that your compensation should be above and beyond any other airlines just because UPS may presently in todays world be able to afford more? If UPS lost profitability in the future by say 30 percent would you be willing to take a 30 percent pay cut to compensate? Just trying to gauge how you think this should work.

No one is going to take a pay cut for the pilots, except maybe in the management in dividends/bonuses. That seems to be the rub. I would argue that we are already much more a productive group than the FedEx pilots.

I hope your not offended but the envy I might feel is that you are paid so well for so little work. Everyone else at UPS even the incompetent management work much harder than you and actually have more of an impact on customer satisfaction then you do. Your impact on our service will increase as we continue to expand overseas but for now the brown drivers and the package handlers pay the bills. Including yours that we should all feel so envious over.


I'm on the road for approximately 360 hours per month. I think that it would be great to come home everyday, but it doesn't work that way. It is hard to get to my bed near Louisville when I get off work in the morning in California, New York, Germany or Finland.

I do think many in management work hard, but I wish they would work alittle harder at negotiating with us, instead of being out amongst the rank painting us as the "evil pilots". <G> Sorry is my statements might have changed anyones opinions here<G>, sometimes the truth does lie out side the "Brown Box".



I would never label you greedy. I do agree your safety record is outstanding and I do think you deserve to be one of the best compensated in your profession. I just wonder if you know how good you have it. I don't agree with the idea that you earn that compensation by trying to destroy the company that provides that compensation. Since you do appear to have appointed yourself the pilots spokes person on this board I thought I might ask you a few tough questions while most everyone else is busy bending over to kiss your rear end.

Sorry I lost your quote about the uniforms looking good. Thanks. I think the drivers like theirs too. Maybe that is why my wife is always ordering stuff why I'm gone, so the driver will show up.<G> I try my best to look as sharp as I can when in uniform representing the company.

By the way, I think you have labeled me greedy in the nicest way. Touche.

I haven't appointed myself anything, I just registered and thought I might provide a different point of view. Many here seem to have what I consider less than a truthful view. I wonder where in the world they would have gotten that? Actually, I spent alot of time here lately because I spent the holiday in a hotel with free internet, cheap rich pilots will take a freebee anywhere they can find it. Want to buy me a beer sometimes, my two favor kinds are cold and free, if it is free, I'll drink it hot.<G>

Truthfully, no one is trying to destroy the company, especially the IPA. It would seem that the people with your authority and "dictator" style are trying to destroy the image of the pilot group. It would be nice to even once be considered as part of the company, but I'm not management, so I guess I don't qualify.

I got a couple of days off now, much to do at the house. I have gotten behind since I haven't been at home for the last 7 days.

Thanks for your kind words. Really, I'm rather used to them by now.

BrownBusDriver

 

[BrownBusDriver]

What's wrong, the table not paying off right now?<G> I never did gamble very well, not a very good bluffer.

BrownBusDriver

 

[tieguy]

There are times during this negotations that both the company and union have talked about compensation, but the truth is we haven't to my knowledge even made it past the retirement and health care issues to compensation, so any information to that is at best rumors.

There you and I are in agreement. The question I had then was why you kept saying the company was offering you less.

 

[tieguy]

I think that there are too many managers at this company period. What would the profits look like if we were as lean on managers are we stay in both drivers and pilots?

Ahhhh a great question. Probably as good as if we ran more sleeper and mileage runs and flew less packages? N'est Pas?

 

[tieguy]

Truthfully, no one is trying to destroy the company, especially the IPA. It would seem that the people with your authority and "dictator" style are trying to destroy the image of the pilot group. It would be nice to even once be considered as part of the company, but I'm not management, so I guess I don't qualify.

Actually a better post on your part. A little more human and a refreshing change from the monotous drone you were previously posting. My main objection in this area is the public attack your union is running against this company. I have always believed that a failure in negotiations is the result of both parties not getting the job done. Your side will argue that my side is not negotiating in good faith. My side may argue that your side has clearly shown it is not willing to settle this thing by running these public campaigns meant to cause uneasiness amongst our shippers.