wkmac
Well-Known Member
In the Moab thread the following was posted by @It will be fine
Aside from responding to the bold print portion of the reply above, I felt the bulk of my reply to be OT to the OP of the thread so I'm creating this thread and responding here mostly about the issue of renewable energy as a way forward. I felt the response above raises an excellent point. However the first 2 paragraphs relating to national policy on behalf of fossil fuel relating to military needs, I'd like to keep that elsewhere, back in the Moab thread might be a better fit. I'd rather kept this devoted to renewbles and what their future might be, pro or con. This is my response:
Thanks to @It will be fine for raising this issue.
Can't disagree at all. I'm reluctant to launch a nationalize campaign on behalf of so-called renewable energy even though I agree our future is in that direction. Felt this way since the mid 70's after discovering Mother Earth News and making the 3 hour drive to Mother Earth Village and seeing what was possible even 40 years ago. This country created a kind of nationalized campaign on behalf of fossil fuel early in the last century and for the most part that played a role in the last 100 plus years of both domestic and foreign US policy. A policy IMO we never should have gotten into but the fact is we did and here we are.
What I'd like to see is instead of harvesting all this money out of local economies for global purposes, leave that money in the local economies and when it comes to alternative or renewable energy, stop all forms of fossil fuel subsidy, including military missions on behalf of oil and economic interests such as the petro dollar and then let fossil fuel and renewables compete on a more levelized playing field. In the long run, IMO, so-called renewables will take hold more and more and in some cases the renewables could make energy so cheap as to almost be free. IMO there is a fear that energy is no longer scarce and what that would mean to those wanting to maintain the current model of power and hegemony. Leaving more money in local economies allow those economies to grow and some of that may go towards growing a renewable foot print. Many local utilities are some form of a co-op, my own electrical utility is a co-op and these co-ops are the perfect place (seed beds if you will) for a transition to renewables to begin. The more smaller/rural areas are ripe for it. More and more people these days are on board moving forward into renewables and I personally think this is a future that can't be avoided nor stopped. National programs allow vested interests to control the progress when we need to move these interests out of the way.
The biggest roadblock to making renewable a bigger player is the need to go super efficient especially with appliances. The next biggest hurdles in that area are home HVAC, food refrigeration and cooking. Refrigeration has come a long way with not only low voltage (12VDC) refrigerators but even gas refrigerators and freezers. Diamond Elite Gas Refrigerators and Freezers along with Sun Frost low voltage refrigerators are just a few examples of what can be done there. Kerosene refrigerators are also available. Just for comparison, a 18 cu. ft. propane refrigerator can run a month on a 20 lb. propane tank or about 5 gallons a month. Not off grid so to speak but they are a step in the direction of super efficiency and these units are built with that idea in mind.
Cooling is the bigger hurdle in HVAC but even that is making progress. The efficiency of Air Conditioning has been making great leaps but we're not completely there with low voltage/low wattage systems. About 3 years ago I had a 21 SEER dual fuel HVAC system installed on the main floor of my home and come Monday I'm installing a 21 SEER system on my basement level. Between these 2 units and other improvement in our home with lighting and appliances, we believe it very possible that out summer monthly electric bill may not break $100. We'll see but doing an analyst of power usage and mapping all the power needs and pulling out a lot of hair running power programs, it does seem doable at the moment. Along the lines of of grid AC, is off grid solar air conditioning possible?
This is the kind of squeezing the efficiency bubble that renewables is going to need. Throwing up a solar panel or wind mill alone is not the answer and even more so, is not the collective answer. Thus why I oppose your original suggestion, noble as it is, to throw our so-called collective resources at the so-called renewable problem. Stop looking for a one size fits all as the one size fits all is what got us in the Pandora's box we find ourselves in now. The other part of the renewable equation that seems always left out is micro hydro which can be an excellent option and without doing harm to the waterflow course of a river or stream. Maybe if this thread goes we might broach that subject too.
Aside from responding to the bold print portion of the reply above, I felt the bulk of my reply to be OT to the OP of the thread so I'm creating this thread and responding here mostly about the issue of renewable energy as a way forward. I felt the response above raises an excellent point. However the first 2 paragraphs relating to national policy on behalf of fossil fuel relating to military needs, I'd like to keep that elsewhere, back in the Moab thread might be a better fit. I'd rather kept this devoted to renewbles and what their future might be, pro or con. This is my response:
Thanks to @It will be fine for raising this issue.
Can't disagree at all. I'm reluctant to launch a nationalize campaign on behalf of so-called renewable energy even though I agree our future is in that direction. Felt this way since the mid 70's after discovering Mother Earth News and making the 3 hour drive to Mother Earth Village and seeing what was possible even 40 years ago. This country created a kind of nationalized campaign on behalf of fossil fuel early in the last century and for the most part that played a role in the last 100 plus years of both domestic and foreign US policy. A policy IMO we never should have gotten into but the fact is we did and here we are.
What I'd like to see is instead of harvesting all this money out of local economies for global purposes, leave that money in the local economies and when it comes to alternative or renewable energy, stop all forms of fossil fuel subsidy, including military missions on behalf of oil and economic interests such as the petro dollar and then let fossil fuel and renewables compete on a more levelized playing field. In the long run, IMO, so-called renewables will take hold more and more and in some cases the renewables could make energy so cheap as to almost be free. IMO there is a fear that energy is no longer scarce and what that would mean to those wanting to maintain the current model of power and hegemony. Leaving more money in local economies allow those economies to grow and some of that may go towards growing a renewable foot print. Many local utilities are some form of a co-op, my own electrical utility is a co-op and these co-ops are the perfect place (seed beds if you will) for a transition to renewables to begin. The more smaller/rural areas are ripe for it. More and more people these days are on board moving forward into renewables and I personally think this is a future that can't be avoided nor stopped. National programs allow vested interests to control the progress when we need to move these interests out of the way.
The biggest roadblock to making renewable a bigger player is the need to go super efficient especially with appliances. The next biggest hurdles in that area are home HVAC, food refrigeration and cooking. Refrigeration has come a long way with not only low voltage (12VDC) refrigerators but even gas refrigerators and freezers. Diamond Elite Gas Refrigerators and Freezers along with Sun Frost low voltage refrigerators are just a few examples of what can be done there. Kerosene refrigerators are also available. Just for comparison, a 18 cu. ft. propane refrigerator can run a month on a 20 lb. propane tank or about 5 gallons a month. Not off grid so to speak but they are a step in the direction of super efficiency and these units are built with that idea in mind.
Cooling is the bigger hurdle in HVAC but even that is making progress. The efficiency of Air Conditioning has been making great leaps but we're not completely there with low voltage/low wattage systems. About 3 years ago I had a 21 SEER dual fuel HVAC system installed on the main floor of my home and come Monday I'm installing a 21 SEER system on my basement level. Between these 2 units and other improvement in our home with lighting and appliances, we believe it very possible that out summer monthly electric bill may not break $100. We'll see but doing an analyst of power usage and mapping all the power needs and pulling out a lot of hair running power programs, it does seem doable at the moment. Along the lines of of grid AC, is off grid solar air conditioning possible?
This is the kind of squeezing the efficiency bubble that renewables is going to need. Throwing up a solar panel or wind mill alone is not the answer and even more so, is not the collective answer. Thus why I oppose your original suggestion, noble as it is, to throw our so-called collective resources at the so-called renewable problem. Stop looking for a one size fits all as the one size fits all is what got us in the Pandora's box we find ourselves in now. The other part of the renewable equation that seems always left out is micro hydro which can be an excellent option and without doing harm to the waterflow course of a river or stream. Maybe if this thread goes we might broach that subject too.
