The Conundrum of Any Free People

[brett636]

I used that as a premise because it's the lofty ideal that Western politics claims to stand for; for that reason, it seemed like a reasonable starting point.

It depends on what kind of equality you strive for. If its equal opportunity creating unequal results then there is some truth to that. If it is equal outcomes then there is no truth to that.

What of people born into privilege - are they somehow naturally better, or is it just the luck of birth? I don't disagree in the slightest that people are shaped by their life experiences and that true utopian equality is probably a pipe dream; I do think, however, that some measure of equality is to be desired. Not only desired, but that it can be achieved without punishing the successful.

The way I look at it both you and I were born into a life of privilege. Neither of us worry about where our next meal is coming from, we both live with hot water on tap with a secure roof over our heads and can focus more on our own recreation then surviving from day to day. Most of the world doesn't live like that. Now if you are just unhappy because you don't live a life where you can afford a new Mercedes for everyday of the week then you are just delusional as that is the exception not the rule. If you want that kind of life then make it, but don't disparage those who do. In your own example why should Bob have to give up anything for Alice? Maybe Bob worked harder than alice? Maybe Alice was just spitting out babies to keep the welfare checks flowing while Bob running his own business and being wildly successful at it all the while creating jobs that Alice could take if she were to just go ask Bob for one. Your premise is Bob has to give up part of his own sweat and labor just so alice can be more equal to him, and whether you realize it or not that is the basis for Communism pure and simple. Because we are all different we cannot be equal, and anyone who tries to tell you that we can is a either a fool or a power hungry government official.

 

[moreluck]

Punishing the successful is what I have a big problem with!!

 

[hubrat]

IMO the original stature this country held was a direct result of the liberties afforded those fortunate enough to be born or immigrate here in the early days. We were extremely progressive for a couple hundred years +, and I hope that continues because it has served us and the rest of the world pretty well.

In the meantime we have used opportunities to help other nations further their own development. We should be extremely proud of these accomplishments.

The race to the top is over. The more we try to reign supreme, the further retarded our growth will become.

Karma can be a real bitch if ya ain't too careful, and history does seem to repeat itself. Let's not ride the vortex down the drain, ya know?

Fairness should ALWAYS be our goal.

 

[moreluck]

You must work for you supper!!! It's not going to be handed to you. You want something?..earn it. You want your kids feet on the ground?... put some responsibility on their shoulders.
Again, God helps those who help themselves. What's fair is the more we do, the more we are rewarded. People always say a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.....not "I'll sit here and you just hand me the money!"

 

[hubrat]

You must work for you supper!!! It's not going to be handed to you. You want something?..earn it. You want your kids feet on the ground?... put some responsibility on their shoulders.
Again, God helps those who help themselves. What's fair is the more we do, the more we are rewarded. People always say a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.....not "I'll sit here and you just hand me the money!"

I agree with 100% of this statement.

 

[trplnkl]

IMO the original stature this country held was a direct result of the liberties afforded those fortunate enough to be born or immigrate here in the early days. We were extremely progressive for a couple hundred years +, and I hope that continues because it has served us and the rest of the world pretty well.

In the meantime we have used opportunities to help other nations further their own development. We should be extremely proud of these accomplishments.

The race to the top is over. The more we try to reign supreme, the further retarded our growth will become.

Karma can be a real bitch if ya ain't too careful, and history does seem to repeat itself. Let's not ride the vortex down the drain, ya know?

Fairness should ALWAYS be our goal.

Not challenging you, just want to know what your definition of "Fairness" is.

 

[hubrat]

Not challenging you, just want to know what your definition of "Fairness" is.

Short version: equal opportunity to produce a desired outcome.

Before you do challenge, please realize I said it should be our goal. IMO it is much too subjective to be 100% attainable. It is not, however, as impossibly attainable as true objectivity is.

 

[moreluck]

Short version: equal opportunity to produce a desired outcome.

Before you do challenge, please realize I said it should be our goal. IMO it is much too subjective to be 100% attainable. It is not, however, as impossibly attainable as true objectivity is.

IMO, your definition has 5 too many words in it....at the end.
Equal Opportunity is enough.....the outcome depends on how hard people apply themselves.

 

[curiousbrain]

As the good old Reverand Al Sharpton now states : No longer equal rights for all--now we must have equal results for all.
Al does not include effort, determination,work ethic, educating oneself,sacrafice,risk etc etc.

Alice worked when she was legally able,saved her money,paid attention in grammer school even when it was hard with Bob disrupting the class. Alice studied very hard in High school while working evenings and weekends. Bob dropped out of High school to pump gas off the books until he was replaced by automation and went on welfare and foodstamps.
Alice took out loans for her Higher Education and also worked P/t for UPS that contributed to her tuition.
Alice graduated at the top of her class and was accepted into Medical school. More loans, harder work,more sacrafice.
Bob got hooked on crack fathered seven children from four different women -supports none of them.
Alice is now working 22 hours a day as a resident Doctor.
Bob is selling drugs and food stamps and in his spare time -mugging people.
Alice is now a successful Doctor working in a poor community. With her work as a successful heart surgeon at an upscale Hospital she is able to make a very good yearly salary--250,000. She now has loans to pay back and because of Tort lawyers she must take out a huge liability insurance policy. She also lives in N.Y. with the highest Home prices and Taxes both Property and city.Financially she is just making ends meet.
Bob is bussed to rallies and holds sign that say the rich pigs like Alice must pay their fair share.Our President Obama claims we should not let rich Alice just sit and count their money--all must sacrafice --liKE BOB.
Bob pays NO share.
Alice contributes to society has worked and sacraficed to get to where she is .

Rev Al keeps yelling that Bob and Alice must have EQUAL results.

We can go on and look into the future. Whose children will do better ?
Whose children have the best or any chance?
Is it the lack of freedom? Is it the lack of resources ?
Or is it Personal choice ? We are paying for loser bob --his children can lift themselves up --or just like Dad --blame society,blame the government, blame "racism" but never,never look into a mirror and blame yourself !!

I see, and agree with, your point - on the level of individuals. However, in the more abstract sense of nations, I would argue that it is not that cut and dry - and person from a less advantaged country does not have the same guarantees of (to purposefully simplify it for brevity, not disrespect) "hard work translates to prosperity." A larger question, as well, is why there are advantaged and disadvantaged countries - is it because some countries work harder, or is it because of natural imbalances of things like resources, technology, and wealth?

The opportunity available to the individual citizen is, at least in this train of thought, a direct result of the benefits that the host country reaps from disadvantaging other countries.

 

[hubrat]

IMO, your definition has 5 too many words in it....at the end.
Equal Opportunity is enough.....the outcome depends on how hard people apply themselves.

 

[curiousbrain]

[...]The way I look at it both you and I were born into a life of privilege. Neither of us worry about where our next meal is coming from, we both live with hot water on tap with a secure roof over our heads and can focus more on our own recreation then surviving from day to day. Most of the world doesn't live like that.

Exactly my point; doesn't that encourage investigation into why other countries don't live like we do - and if they don't, should we not make it our mission (as is occasionally espoused by the "Western establishment", if you will) to lift them up to our level of living? And, more to the point, if increasing their standard of living causes a decrease in our own level of living (because of finite resources, the world market is only so large, etc), do we, out of self-interest, really care at all?

[...] Now if you are just unhappy because you don't live a life where you can afford a new Mercedes for everyday of the week then you are just delusional as that is the exception not the rule. If you want that kind of life then make it, but don't disparage those who do.

I agree.

[...] In your own example why should Bob have to give up anything for Alice? Maybe Bob worked harder than alice? Maybe Alice was just spitting out babies to keep the welfare checks flowing while Bob running his own business and being wildly successful at it all the while creating jobs that Alice could take if she were to just go ask Bob for one. Your premise is Bob has to give up part of his own sweat and labor just so alice can be more equal to him, and whether you realize it or not that is the basis for Communism pure and simple. Because we are all different we cannot be equal, and anyone who tries to tell you that we can is a either a fool or a power hungry government official.

I think I worded it that way because in the context of the original post, I envisioned it such that there is a global limit to equality - if all countries in the world are equal, there is an equilibrium that mandates that the economic standards of living have to be at a certain level for everyone. If one country exceeds that "midpoint," then there is no equilibrium.

I'm not advocating communism at all; however, this is precisely the point I was trying to highlight - global advocation of freedom (the freedom of the nation/citizen to do what they want and pursue their goals vigorously) is at odds with any country believing they hold a position of preeminence. To promote equality is to give up the notion that any one or any thing has a monopoly of power, importance, wealth, etc.

Note: I hasten to add here that this was a thought experiment; I am not advocating anything, beyond attempting (perhaps vainly) to defend the original point.

 

[curiousbrain]

[...] In the meantime we have used opportunities to help other nations further their own development. We should be extremely proud of these accomplishments.

How much of a better position would every person in this country be if we had not helped other countries further their own development? In a pure sense of my interest before others, do I, as Joe Citizen of some country, really care if others are poor, as long as I am not? I can donate money to any number of charities to help me sleep at night.

[...] The race to the top is over. The more we try to reign supreme, the further retarded our growth will become.

Karma can be a real bitch if ya ain't too careful, and history does seem to repeat itself. Let's not ride the vortex down the drain, ya know?

Fairness should ALWAYS be our goal.

If a nation constantly strived for fairness, any supremacy it had would be down the drain very shortly; because less principled nations would take advantage of our altruism and generosity, and before long the servant would be the master. Or, so this train of thought goes.

 

[hubrat]

How much of a better position would every person in this country be if we had not helped other countries further their own development? In a pure sense of my interest before others, do I, as Joe Citizen of some country, really care if others are poor, as long as I am not? I can donate money to any number of charities to help me sleep at night.



If a nation constantly strived for fairness, any supremacy it had would be down the drain very shortly; because less principled nations would take advantage of our altruism and generosity, and before long the servant would be the master. Or, so this train of thought goes.

Where would we be technologically, medically, etc. had these other countries not developed?

I am not talking about fairness in terms of giving 1/2 of what we have to anyone else. I'm talking about fairness here at home FIRST. Then fairness in terms of tolerance, acceptance, and patience while other countries develop. That would've saved us a boatload.

The best way for this country to regain/maintain its status is through example. Prove that we are intelligent and mature through our actions. Maturity IMO does not include thinking we are better than our neighbor.

 

[moreluck]

You said....Equal Opportunity !!!! Yet you put up conflicting pictures. What game are you playing?

 

[trplnkl]

When looking at these two pics, I think you probably see differing levels of opportunity. What I see are possibly two differing results of applied opportunity. There are no stated rules or situations that can identify the results in the pics. There may have well been equal ops but applied effort may have not been equal.
I went to school with guys that grew up in families with more money that I ever dreamed of. Some of these same guys had a free ride to a college of their choice, yet screwed it off partying and cutting class until they were kicked out of school and couldn't find another to take them for a couple of years. Instead of learning from their mistakes, they continued to screw off the rest of their early adult years and now work crap jobs with crap pay and can't seem to even get along in society. Now please don't take this wrong, I'm not saying I'm any better than these guys, but I have done more with what little I did have to be a responsible contributing member of the community. Sometimes unequal outcome is directly related to unequal effort, not unequal opportunity.

 

[hubrat]

You said....Equal Opportunity !!!! Yet you put up conflicting pictures. What game are you playing?

No game here. You said Iyo equal opportunity is enough and the rest depends on application. Leave the definition this simple... The children in the 1st picture have the same opportunities as those in the 2nd, THEY WILL JUST HAVE TO APPLY THEMSELVES MUCH HARDER TO GET THE DESIRED OUTCOME.

What they don't have is the same advantages.

 

[hubrat]

I have never been comfortable with the concept of supremacy. It's relative and IMO it's rude. Can't remember the author but clearly the quote from early childhood..."there once was a man who thought himself better than me. He was until he had that thought."

IMO we would fair much better with the realization that we are ALL part of a parasitic invasion of the earth...

 

[klein]

Let me get to this, since some of you are totally against any sort of socialisum (as being like Europe, or even your neighbor up north).

In the last few recent days, I posted on different threads about Denmark.
They are the highest taxed in the western world, somewhere around the 40% mark or more.
Oddly enough though, they are the worlds' happiest people !

They don't need to worry about heath or dental care costs, not even daycare costs (provided by the government)
They have a 37 hr work week, and probably a retirement age of 60.
5 or 6 weeks mandatory vacation (does not go by seniority there) - If you started work in Denamrk, or even Germany today, you'ld still be entitled to almost 4 weeks for the remaining of the year.

Minimum wage in Denmark is a whopping 103.5 Denmark Krones per hr ! (2009 figures).
That's $20 per hr !

Might get some people thinking is capitalisum, and each and everyone fighting on their own, to survive, better then the Denmark way of living ?

Oh yeah, and they are kind of rich compared to any other western country.
Richer then Germany and well above the European average :

Budget surpluses and falling unemployment helped Denmark cut its public debt to 27 percent of GDP in 2007, from 52 percent in 2000. This freed the government to stimulate the economy during the financial crisis.

 

[moreluck]

No game here. You said Iyo equal opportunity is enough and the rest depends on application. Leave the definition this simple... The children in the 1st picture have the same opportunities as those in the 2nd, THEY WILL JUST HAVE TO APPLY THEMSELVES MUCH HARDER TO GET THE DESIRED OUTCOME.

What they don't have is the same advantages.

No, no, no......equal opportunity is like....I get to go to college and you get to go to college......we both have the equal opportunity. You study hard and get good grades and have a nice job waiting for you upon graduation. I, however, don't study, barely show up for classes, drink & smoke pot with my friends. I graduate last in my class with straight Ds and have no job opportunities.
We had equal opportunity. You used yours wisely & I squandered mine....so the results are different. See what I mean?

 

[trplnkl]

Let me get to this, since some of you are totally against any sort of socialisum (as being like Europe, or even your neighbor up north).

In the last few recent days, I posted on different threads about Denmark.
They are the highest taxed in the western world, somewhere around the 40% mark or more.
Oddly enough though, they are the worlds' happiest people !

They don't need to worry about heath or dental care costs, not even daycare costs (provided by the government)
They have a 37 hr work week, and probably a retirement age of 60.
5 or 6 weeks mandatory vacation (does not go by seniority there) - If you started work in Denamrk, or even Germany today, you'ld still be entitled to almost 4 weeks for the remaining of the year.

Minimum wage in Denmark is a whopping 103.5 Denmark Krones per hr ! (2009 figures).
That's $20 per hr !

Might get some people thinking is capitalisum, and each and everyone fighting on their own, to survive, better then the Denmark way of living ?

Oh yeah, and they are kind of rich compared to any other western country.
Richer then Germany and well above the European average :

Budget surpluses and falling unemployment helped Denmark cut its public debt to 27 percent of GDP in 2007, from 52 percent in 2000. This freed the government to stimulate the economy during the financial crisis.

I read this twice and still couldn't find where it has damn thing to do with this thread.