Tieguy vs Canon, the arena...

[tonyexpress]

Tieguy,

You're discrediting yourself by using labels such as pervert and pedophile, reamsters and calling certain people a pack of dogs.

You've been a member of the browncafe for along time and your experience and expertise has benefited many. There have also been occasions where you have been provoked and have lowered yourself to the level of the person provoking you. You then give them ammunition for their argument by getting emotionally charged up and saying things you might not have said otherwise. I've done this myself at UPS and here on this board and later regretted it.

I say this too because many times I have secretly rooted for you and admired your witty style of debate. You make a good case when you're civil. You lose your edge when you do what you've done here in this thread.

I was in management for almost 15 years mostly in operations prior to leaving in Dec 03, and can relate to many stories on this board. I don't post that often but read a lot. As you, I, and most everyone else on here know there are a wide variety of personalities in both the hourly and management ranks at UPS. The frustrated management person and the frustrated driver can be a lethal combination sometimes.

For what its worth, I'm hoping for better debates in the future.

 

[tonyexpress]

Canon,

We feel your pain. I have not posted on this board for so long that my former username-interested, is no longer. I had to register again, as Iconoclast. Many of us who participate on this board have gone quite a few rounds with Tie, Dannyboy included.


Nothing ever seems to change, Tie is extremely passive aggressive and he uses the unique nuances of a message board to proliferate his passive aggressive nature. The old, "I know you are but what am I" on a much grander scale. He is loath to dissect a real issue, especially when you disagree with him. It becomes personal and it becomes vicious.

Here is the interesting thing about message boards. In order to participate you need to be able to express your ideas in a concise manner. Punctuation, spelling, syntax, these are all important, but they are a distant second to the ability to discuss issues, handle criticism and develop sound arguments. Everybody has different abilities and a unique thought processes. Some mull over decisions before coming to a conclusion, some are very decisive and can render a decision very quickly.

The same applies to each of our unique skills in this forum. There are some who post and although we disagree vehemently with what they write, we wholly admire the manner in which they write it. We are impressed with their clarity of thought, the orderly way in which they develop that argument, and the grace and decorum in which they deliver their message. Often, we are interested in posts like that- because they help us to learn to use these forums better, and to build our own "message board game"

For some, I believe that they would very much like to participate in a more professional manner, but they simply lack the tools. Instead of communicating in a style that is simpler, forthright and honest, they feel a great deal of insecurity and feel the need to attack people.

Tieguy is right out of central casting for this phenomenon. I think that he is tremendously insecure about what he has posted, and once someone disagrees with him, he attacks. Tie can become especially vicious if your rebuttal to him is clean, well developed and written with style and grace-Most of your posts Canon, fall squarely into this category, hence his frequent attacks.

Personally, I have had my a** handed to me on message boards, and it stings. I have been in forums where it took me months to have the courage to post something, and when I did, I was ripped to shreds. Not personally mind you, but the argument, structure and the style in which I presented those arguments. It can be humbling, there is no question about that. It can also be a great learning experience to adopt the style, content and structure of those who are much more proficient than you.

Or, as crazy as this sounds, just be yourself. Once people are inured to your style, and this happens very quickly, you will find that you are respected for your message, experiences and insight. Most people who successfully contribute to message forums do so in this manner. After all, Hemingway got along pretty good using simple language and dinky words. You just have to be confident that what you have posted will stand up on its own, most of the time it does.

It is frustrating to deal with Tieguy, but use that frustration to continue to develop your own game.

They say that the only true failures in life are lessons not learned the first time. Tie has thousands and thousands of posts over the years, and sadly, they are all the same.

Do the math.

Your post has some good points but I'll have to disagree with categorizing Tie's posts as all the same because that's not true or fair.

 

[Channahon]

Dr Phil is always looking for colorful guest and I think both Tie and Canon would be welcomed
What a show that would be, probably a series of shows!!!

 

[outta hours]

How about a reality show with them in it, and maybe a few others from this site. You know a realworld, big brother, survivor, amazing race type show. Talk about ratings. I need to call my agent let's do lunch.

 

[tieguy]

I log on to this message board to learn things. I learn from fellow hourlies and management people both. Inherently, it will always be a "us against them" battle. But it doesn't have to be a war. And a vicious war at that. Canon is good at debating Tie, but never overtly hostile and reduced to calling his antagonist "a pedophile" or a "pervert." Tie, you give management a bad name. I would think that if Atlanta knew about you and what you post, they would try to shut you down. Battle on Canon!

ah Helen did you really read the post that precipatated my comments? Did you really look and see that canon offered his derogatory words totally unprovoked by me?

 

[tieguy]

Tieguy,

You're discrediting yourself by using labels such as pervert and pedophile, reamsters and calling certain people a pack of dogs.

Tony,
You're right in that sense. I would be willing to retract everything but the pack of dogs terminology. The pack of dogs are prevelant here and one of the more cowardly features I have seen develop here. Many who are members of the pack jumped on my every word and seem to miss the fact that while Canon is most eloquent when not obsessed with management he is in fact usually a shining example of those traits he claims to despise with me. This last debate was another stellar example. Canon started that stretch totally unprovoked by me and then his dog pack jumped in totally missing this vital point. This site has done well because the posters here have not succombed to the dog pack concept in the past.

 

[DS]

I like it...a contest to get packages from here to there...with obstacles...tie and canon get assigned to the same team
against scratch_king and me...no holds barred...

 

[satellitedriver]

I like it...a contest to get packages from here to there...with obstacles...tie and canon get assigned to the same team
against scratch_king and me...no holds barred...

Can I run interference?

 

[tonyexpress]

Re: What type of route is easier on your body?

Tie, it's not an US vs them battle to anyone but you. In your mind it is tie vs teamsters, and to you we're all nothing more than cry babies and cowards if we disagree with anything you say.

Who are you kidding?? It has been management vs teamsters for along time. Many teamsters abuse management everyday and when they're called on it you bet some of them cry. By the same token there are unfair management practices used as well. I'm not so naive as to think that Tie is the only one who finds it challenging managing people in a union environment.

Jim Casey made the decision to invite the union into the workplace and it's worked for a long, long time. UPS drivers are the best paid among their peers and deserve it because they work the hardest. The pressure to get every ounce of production out of every union employee is challenging. To compensate for the higher wages UPS employees must be very productive, otherwise UPS won't be able to remain competitive.

I'm done with you tie... not just in this thread but done. I wont put you on ignore, as it is amusing to watch you run the professional image of mgmt right into the ground. Almost as funny as watching other mgmt not say anything to you about your behavior... very telling.

bye bye tie.

I'm disappointed in you Cannon. Is there a double standard? I certainly don't see other teamsters rushing to correct their brothers when an indivdual in management is unfairly attacked. You are intelligent and have good debating skills and have really been an asset to this forum. I personally enjoyed the debate with regards to anti war thread and was rooting for you.

Why use sarcasm or other means to incite tieguy?? He admits that he was out of line in this thread but I think you like to get under his skin.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think things between you guys can be better.

 

[tieguy]

Nice thought but I don't see it. Canons carrying too much baggage with him from his job. Let him post pretty pictures or graphics and he is fine. Talk shop and he goes bonkers.

 

[trickpony1]

Nice thought but I don't see it. Canons carrying too much baggage with him from his job. Let him post pretty pictures or graphics and he is fine. Talk shop and he goes bonkers.

This is pack dog #2.
So you think canon is "......carrying too much baggage with him from his job."? I imagine your ego is starting to weigh pretty heavy on you having to be right all the time?
"Talk shop and he goes bonkers.". Unlike yourself, canon is/was capable of an orchestrated debate without twisting words around, going off on tangents and completely avoiding the issue.
For someone who seems to fancy himself as God's gift to management, let's do some comparisons with some of your management brethren that don't seem to be coming to your defense ("very telling").
There is a former MANAGER, female, I think (not that it matters) that portrays herself as educated, intelligent and accomplished. I have never heard her name calling, sidestepping the issues, resorting to the "I know what you are but what am I", which is sixth grade level debate. Confidence pours from her every post which I enjoy and look forward to reading. Maybe that's how she got to be a MANAGER.
Makes ya think, doesn't it?

 

[canon]

Re: What type of route is easier on your body?

I'm disappointed in you Cannon. I

Sorry to disappoint.

 

[tieguy]

This is pack dog #2.
So you think canon is "......carrying too much baggage with him from his job."? I imagine your ego is starting to weigh pretty heavy on you having to be right all the time?
"Talk shop and he goes bonkers.". Unlike yourself, canon is/was capable of an orchestrated debate without twisting words around, going off on tangents and completely avoiding the issue.
For someone who seems to fancy himself as God's gift to management, let's do some comparisons with some of your management brethren that don't seem to be coming to your defense ("very telling").
There is a former MANAGER, female, I think (not that it matters) that portrays herself as educated, intelligent and accomplished. I have never heard her name calling, sidestepping the issues, resorting to the "I know what you are but what am I", which is sixth grade level debate. Confidence pours from her every post which I enjoy and look forward to reading. Maybe that's how she got to be a MANAGER.
Makes ya think, doesn't it?

Indeed it does. I thought about the many times you over responded on this site in such fashion as you described. Did I get the point you were serving up?

 

[tieguy]

For someone who seems to fancy himself as God's gift to management, let's do some comparisons with some of your management brethren that don't seem to be coming to your defense ("very telling").

Trick,

It appears you have inadverntently stumbled across an issue that is one reason I have raised the "pack of dogs" issue. In the process you once again over embellished when you used the term gods gift to management. In fact I use the title tieguy so everyone can reasonably guess that I am management. It generally saves the "what do you do" questions. Thats the extent of my labeling. I don't present myself as a good management person or a bad one. I don't wear my rank on my sleeve when I post here and I try to avoid it at all costs. I present myself as an opinionated poster period. You have at times acknowledged my opinions when they tended to agree with you. Part of why Canon and I have had so many battles is because I refuse to try to defend the management folks in his building. I don't know them nor the circumstances he speaks of therefore I refused to try to defend them. I did try to help canon with his attitude. Thats the one thing he can clearly control.

Now point two- I raised the "pack of dogs" issue because it needs to be addressed. Much of my support comes via private message it also comes from union posters here as well as management. I get a lot of honest opinions many of them positive on the sidelines. In fact there are times when I have many more private posts then public ones addressed at me.The fact that these people don't feel they can post here openly and honestly on these threads leads me to believe that you and others like you have stifled the open dialogue here. I see that as a problem. Do you?

 

[trickpony1]

Indeed it does. I thought about the many times you over responded on this site in such fashion as you described. Did I get the point you were serving up?

....no but, once again, you successfully twisted it around in your favor. You must have learned that during the debate portion of SBTS.

 

[tieguy]

....no but, once again, you successfully twisted it around in your favor. You must have learned that during the debate portion of SBTS.

I am dissapointed to hear that you don't see a problem with stifling the debate. It was an honest response to your post with no attempt to "twist" the words. This site is your house too. If you want to **** in your house then expect a ****ty house when you come home at night.

In light of this very dissapointing response I rest my case.

 

[tieguy]

....no but, once again, you successfully twisted it around in your favor. You must have learned that during the debate portion of SBTS.

one of my favorite debating tactics you love to employ is to allude to some inner knowledge of my management training.
Here you mention SBTS. I have never mentioned going through sbts. I have never gone through. SBTS does not exist anymore and has not for quite a few years. SBTS is package training. You and I are feeders therefore your use of this term here is totally illogical.
Some of you have also questioned my work group relations and ERI. My district and my operation has one of the highest ERI's in the country. One of the personal attributes of mine that may have contributed to this result is the fact that I am very honest with both the good and bad. My drivers appreciate that honesty. Unfortunately it does not always translate the same in the written word. :blush:

As I said before I'm not crazy about self embellishment of this type and try to avoid speaking of myself at all costs. I am an opinionated poster who is management. I'm not the guy who is here to do your pcm, TLA, range in dispatch or any other management type activity you think I should provide.

 

[Iconoclast]

Honesty Tie, does not translate into mudslinging. To intimate that you are not an aggressor on this board when it comes to name calling and debasing behavior is ridiculous. It is absolutely beyond our pale.

Honesty on a message board forum is a given. These are anonymous vehicles of expression. Rarely do people in any on-line forum not give you their honest exegesis of a given situation, good or bad. It is one of the unique facets of on-line communication. I think we can safely say that no one here has an issue with your honesty, but personal attacks are different. Name calling and vicious attacks about peoples private lives are uncalled for.


It begs the question Tie, why do you feel the need to attack people and not issues. Can't you express yourself without calling others names?

An even more important question is-Why do you react so viscerally when someone calls you a name? Being called a name on a message board is relatively innocuous to say the least, but for some reason it completely sets you off.

Given your assertion about being forthright and honest, tell us

-Why do you react so harshly when someone calls you a name?

 

[tieguy]

Or why do i respond in kind? Or why did you choose to ask me that question when you could have asked any number of posters the same question over the years?

 

[moreluck]

"These are anonymous vehicles of expression. Rarely do people in any on-line forum not give you their honest....."

ICON...I think it's just the opposite on sites. People exaggerate, bloviate, lie, fib, etc. They think they are invisible and can become whoever they want others to think they are. For example, chat rooms have people 55 yrs. old saying they are in their mid-20's. They weigh in at 430 lbs. and say they are the "athletic type"......yeah, for Sumo wrestling!

There's a ton of cow manure that comes across sites. You have to take most of it with a grain of salt.

JMHO