Time For A Reality Check

[susiedriver]

here is a list I found of the worst genocides of the 20th century. How many times did we(America) decide to intervine?

https://web.archive.org/web/20090222144945/http://www.ncpa.org/pub/special/20051220-special.html

 

[dannyboy]

Israel under Begin sent warplanes to bomb the Iraqi reactor in Osiraq in 1981. Saddam Husseins quest for nuclear arms was driven underground until U.N. inspectors uncovered a secret program a decade later

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited

You know, someone is lying. I see people posting that the UN inspectors did not find any nuke program. But yet in an article Reuters put out this on monday? Who is misleading who?

So if the UN inspectors uncovered a secret program around 1991, and yet we find nothing of it now, what happened to the program and the people and the support that was needed to have the program going?

d

 

[susiedriver]

danny,
read the post, driven underground until uncovered a decade later...that would be at the time of GWI.
From the WP, January 21, 1991:
Allied bombers have "thoroughly damaged" Iraqi nuclear research reactors while virtually destroying the country's air defense radar network and most of Iraq's Scud missile launchers, the commander of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf War said yesterday...Schwarzkopf said he had "high confidence," however, that Iraq's nuclear research reactors "have been thoroughly damaged and will not be effective for quite some number of years."

In fact, we carpet bombed the facilities, and after 1991 Iraq diverted its limited resources into trying to rebuild its badly damaged oil industry and never restarted its nuclear program. They had no nuclear weapon capability. Now North Korea, on the other hand...

 

[dannyboy]

...Schwarzkopf said he had "high confidence," however, that Iraq's nuclear research reactors "have been thoroughly damaged and will not be effective for quite some number of years."

I wonder what was the missing part to that quote?

First off, he has high confidence, not 100% sure. That is military talk for we are pretty sure we did some damage.

And will not be effective for quite some number of years. Well lets see, a decade maybe? And yes, he did focus on rebuilding his oil support lines. But we also know that he was very interested and spent big bucks with france and germany just to name two, to boost the time schedule into jump starting the quest into becoming a nuclear power. Funny how there was an oil embargo, but yet he needed to rebuild his oil empire? For who? To buy food for his starving people? Yeah right.

As to where those plants are, it would be hard to say. Maybe not even in Iraq.

Something else. The inspectors uncovered the plants, and we destroyed them within months if not days. Now fast forward 7-10 years. We now have more inspectors roaming the countryside looking for more nuke sites, with our military next door. You have to be kidding me. While a nut case, he is not stupid. You think for one minute he would have shown them anything worth looking at? Its a good thing we have leaders that are not that gullible.

As to Korea, yes they do, and he is just as big a nut case as the one we are dealing with here. But the Chinese and Japanese have more at stake than we do right now. We will let them handle it for a while.

As far as perspective, one has really gotten lost. Today, several women bombers killed at least 24 police cadets and wounded twice that many. The targets of the terrorist have been those that have attempted to restore peace and order to the country. Not so much the American presence.

They are paying a terrible price for freedom and self determination, while we argue the fine points of being lied to.

d

 

[susiedriver]

I wonder what was the missing part to that quote?

I suppose an inquisitive mind would check the WP archives for that date. A suspicious mind would assume there was some damning detail left out. It is a lenghty article posted on the front page, the title of the article is:

U.S. Claims Iraqi Nuclear Reactors Hit Hard
Go read the entire thing if you desire.

As to where those plants are, it would be hard to say. Maybe not even in Iraq.

Umm, then they wouldn't be Iraqi plants, would they?

Something else. The inspectors uncovered the plants, and we destroyed them within months if not days. Now fast forward 7-10 years. We now have more inspectors roaming the countryside looking for more nuke sites, with our military next door. You have to be kidding me. While a nut case, he is not stupid. You think for one minute he would have shown them anything worth looking at? Its a good thing we have leaders that are not that gullible.

You can't hide a nuclear powerplant.

As to Korea, yes they do, and he is just as big a nut case as the one we are dealing with here. But the Chinese and Japanese have more at stake than we do right now. We will let them handle it for a while.

China is their ally, remember? I believe that we supply the military protection for Japan, as per the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security signed in 1960; something about them losing a war awhile back. All they have is the Jieitai, and though very advanced, it is for self-defense only. Their constitution forbids a standing army, navy or air force. North Korea has delivery systems capable of hitting the US with nuclear weapons, they don't have oil, though. Saddam didn't have delivery systems, but has oil. Not that this would have anything to do with it, though. Kim Jong Il, and his father have been much more brutal to their own people than Saddam, if you can quantify genocide (I don't think you can), but we certainly haven't marched in there. Maybe the 2 million man Chinese Army has something to do with it?

 

[tieguy]

Agreed, good editorial. Love the conclusion.

Besides, Slick Willie doesnt look so bad after five years of Gauche George; you start to appreciate a guy who can save his own skin when you realize youre a passenger on a kamikaze mission, which is what the Bush administration feels like.

Does not mean I agreed with all points of the article but I did find it well written and worth considering. Slick willie did have a knack for avoiding what appeared to be impending doom domestically. Slick Willie had his Iraq with Bosnia but it clearly recieved much better support from the liberal press and his supporters who were masters at spinning **** into gold.

 

[tieguy]

tie,
Please point out the errors in this article. I believe it to be a factual account. Do you agree?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Absolutely as soon as I find about 3 years worth of time.

 

[tieguy]

OK Tie,
I now see that you choose to ignore facts that don't fit your agenda, fine. No further discussion is necessary.

And yet you do continue the discussion. Do you ever keep any of your promises?

Bottom line, I don't think the policy of pre-emptive war is one that we should be following. This was a war of choice, not necessity. Afghanistan was a war of necessity, and we didn't finish that one.

In fact a credible arugment could be made that Afghanistan was not a war of necessity.

The next Hitler of this world is liable to be Mahmud Ahmedinejad, the similarities are astounding.

If so will you support the effort to aid the cause of human rights or will you again attempt to undermine the effort?

 

[tieguy]

here is a list I found of the worst genocides of the 20th century. How many times did we(America) decide to intervine?
https://web.archive.org/web/20140826094915/http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

A popular argument on the liberal side. We should either do them all or not do any. Would you support our taking out all brutal dictators or is this just another argument you will now discard.

 

[tieguy]

"North Korea has delivery systems capable of hitting the US with nuclear weapons"

Yes another popular liberal argument against the Iraqi conflict. To make this point the liberal attempts to identify other threats they feel are a greater threat to us than Iraq. In so doing they attempt to make the case that the US was negligent in addressing this threat and exercised poor judgement in addressing a threat that was not as pressing.

Could you please solidify your point here susan by showing us where North Korea successfully test fired a drone missle accurately hitting a strategic area of the united states thus proving the accuracy of this delivery system. Thanks so much.

 

[dannyboy]

North Korea does not have, but China did not have a delivery system that could, until the Clinton admin gave it to them via Loreal(sp). I guess his thoughts were it was just not fair we could reach out and touch them, and they not be able to respond. There is a lot of technology that came out of Russia when they went broke, and much to the highest bidder, without regard as to how it might be used.

As for Korea and China being best buds, Iraq and Iran could be best buds if they faced a common enemy. They figured that fighting us in Korea was preferable to fighting us in China. Kinda like what is happening in Iraq and fighting terrorists. Rather there than here.

d

 

[susiedriver]

https://web.archive.org/web/20140826094915/http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

Jane’s Defence Weekly tomorrow reports exclusively that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea - DPRK) is deploying a pair of new ballistic missile systems.

“Both these new land and sea-based systems appreciably expand the ballistic missile threat presented by the DPRK,” concludes the report. “The submarine-launched ballistic missile or ship-mounted version of this new system is potentially the most threatening. It would fundamentally alter the missile threat posed by the DPRK and could finally provide its leadership with something that it has long sought to obtain-- the ability to directly threaten the continental US.”

Duh, wrong again,dBoy.

Tie, you back pedaling {deleted by moderator for flaming}, you posted earlier that the US should intervene anytime we see a dictator/ruler abusing his own people. foad.

 

[susiedriver]

A popular argument on the liberal side. We should either do them all or not do any. Would you support our taking out all brutal dictators or is this just another argument you will now discard.

No, you were the one who said it. I don't believe in pre-emptive war.

 

[susiedriver]

Yet amazingly enough the whole world still believed he had them. We weren't alone in this belief.

No one I know believed that. At least you admit you're wrong, unlike the spineless, lying, C student, torturing presnit.

 

[wily_old_vet]

But susie you are the super intelligent one on this board. Course I do remember Hilary, John, Levin et al saying as they voted FOR the war that he had nukes. I think it was Clinton who fired missiles at his nuclear facilities. Oh thats right they were lied to.

 

[tieguy]

Duh, wrong again,dBoy.

Tie, you back pedaling liar, you posted earlier that the US should intervene anytime we see a dictator/ruler abusing his own people. foad.

.

Did you not understand the question? You surely did not answer it. Please provide an example where north korea successfully fired a drone and struck a strategic area of the united states with pinpoint accuracy.

Keep in mind the ability to deploy means more than just having a missle and missle guidance system. If you're going to enter the debate on military weapontry then you have to be prepared to lean something about the subject first.

In deploying the missle the system has to be accurate and the system has to have the means to get past our defense systems and or close enough to successfully strike its target.

Either means of deployment you displayed would not get close enough to hit its target. Please drop back 10 yards and punt before you get humiliated anymore.

 

[tieguy]

No, you were the one who said it. I don't believe in pre-emptive war.

Ok, Please tell us then how many millions of innocent people a brutal dictator has to kill before you feel obligated to intervene?

 

[tieguy]

No one I know believed that. At least you admit you're wrong, unlike the spineless, lying, C student, torturing presnit.

I guess you don't know anyone on this message board then do you baby?

Guess you chose to ignore the polls you love to use when they are in your favor?

Guess you chose to ignore all the liberal congressional reps that stood up and said they believed.

Hell you must be living in the same hole Saddaam was foundin

 

[susiedriver]

Why Weren't We Told the Truth About the Marine Deaths?

NEW YORK Why did the U.S. military mislead the media and the families of ten Marines killed near the Iraqi city of Falluja while "on patrol" last week about how they were killed? The military announced on Tuesday that it actually happened at a "promotion" ceremony and they were not on foot patrol as initially reported.

Families of the victims immediately raised questions about the incident and it was unclear whether the site had been properly swept for explosive devices.

The Marines were in a disused flour mill on the outskirts of the city to celebrate the promotion of three soldiers, a military statement said on Tuesday.

As the ceremony ended, the Marines dispersed and one of them is thought to have stepped on a buried pressure plate linked to explosives that caused the devastating blast.

But CNN, for example, reported four days ago, based on military reports, that the dead Marines "were conducting a nighttime foot patrol when a roadside bomb fashioned with large artillery shells detonated."

Misreporting up the chain of command led to the incorrect reporting of the location to the media, Marine officials said.

The death toll was the largest suffered by U.S. soldiers in Iraq in a single incident since August.

Last Friday the Marine Corps had announced that the 10 Marines were on foot patrol and hit in an ambush on Thursday by a roadside bomb, an improvised explosive device, or IED, "made from several large artillery shells," the Marines said, according to the Associated Press dispatch. Eleven Marines were wounded in the explosion.

The attack came was just a day after President George W. Bush had given a speech outlining his strategy for Iraq and saying he would settle for "nothing less than complete victory."

 

[moreluck]

tieguy......speaking of Marines, how's that barrel coming along for the Toys For Tots? Good luck with that project.

We are doing Starlight, Starbright Children for the season......through our community association.....lots of toys so far.

You must agree that both organizations are truly worthy causes.