Tucson Shooting !

dilligaf

IN VINO VERITAS
I think we can over analyze a comment if we are not careful. Or misanalyze it. I've certainly been guilty of such here.:surprised::

In this case my comment was directed at the government done it conspiracy rants not the shootings theirselves.
Nooooo, say it ain't so.:wink2:
 

Returntosender

Well-Known Member
Allow me to be the first then.
Screw that Tea Party jack ass and all the other Palin warriors following her cross-hairs map.

No. I don't believe the TP had a damn thing to do with this. But that doesn't make their silence on it's condemnation any less intriguing after using cross-hair maps and campaign slogans like "don't retreat, reload". In such context, the silence is damning.

Are you insinuating. This attack is a Sarah Palin inspired attack. Who would of thought?
 

Returntosender

Well-Known Member
Hard to believe the Judge was the original target, maybe both ?
As has been reported , he walked right up to Giffords, shot her point blank in the head.

How anyone can do that, beats all my thoughts.

And yes, I agree, a nutcase !

In the nutcases mind, it's called collateral damage.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Are you insinuating. This attack is a Sarah Palin inspired attack. Who would of thought?

Wehn you sound out all the words to the post of mine that you referenced, it is clear that is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that what the right and tea partiers call "just words" have the potential to hold alot of weight
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
This is no different than that dude that went up in the tower at a college in TX, I believe, and shot students with a high powered rifle.......nut case too!!
 

Returntosender

Well-Known Member
This is no different than that dude that went up in the tower at a college in TX, I believe, and shot students with a high powered rifle.......nut case too!!

Charles went to the highest point"angle of attack" on campus, which gives him the advantage. Charles Whitman packed it together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle with a 4x Leupold Scope, an M1 carbine, a Remington .35 caliber pump rifle and various other equipment stowed in a wooden crate and his Marine footlocker. He also had a .357 Magnum revolver, 9mm German Luger, and another small caliber pistol on his person. Charles Whitman plan was thought out for maximum effect.

The Arizona guy is just crazy, no planning. One gun, one mag, no additional mag or ammo. There is big difference between the two. There both nutjobs that's a given. But Whiteman mental state is a lot more dangerous then the Arizona shooter.
 

curiousbrain

Well-Known Member
Charles went to the highest point"angle of attack" on campus, which gives him the advantage. Charles Whitman packed it together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle with a 4x Leupold Scope, an M1 carbine, a Remington .35 caliber pump rifle and various other equipment stowed in a wooden crate and his Marine footlocker. He also had a .357 Magnum revolver, 9mm German Luger, and another small caliber pistol on his person. Charles Whitman plan was thought out for maximum effect.

The Arizona guy is just crazy, no planning. One gun, one mag, no additional mag or ammo. There is big difference between the two. There both nutjobs that's a given. But Whiteman mental state is a lot more dangerous then the Arizona shooter.

I'm not sure if you entirely understand the point of using links; that is to say, linking to the page of Leupold telescopic sights on Wikipedia probably does little to advance your point.

To the meat and potatoes of your argument, you are arguing the extent of "dangerousness" of the two crazy people. That is to say, is there any practical difference between craziness beyond a certain point? More specifically, once a person decides to shoot/stab/kill/etc people, isn't any consideration of the degree of craziness beyond that point purely academic?
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Wehn you sound out all the words to the post of mine that you referenced, it is clear that is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that what the right and tea partiers call "just words" have the potential to hold alot of weight

Thanks. Now I understand.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Just like the Taliban used to be an Allie of the US.
What happened to that ?

Things can always turn around, if you don't get what you want or expect.
 

Returntosender

Well-Known Member
I'm just saying charles was more dangerous then the arizona shooter. Because charles planned his attack out in detail. Charles was prepared with the amount of weaponary charles brought with him to the tower.charles knew responding law enforcement would go to the tower and close quarter combat was going to happen. Thats why charles had small arms on him.

There are different levels of crazy. Court appointed doctors make that decision.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
more than one mag.....31 shots each. A LADY actually wrestled his gun & mag from him as he was re-loading for a second round of "31" shots. Then 2 men tackled him down.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Would you say that he is a product of his environment or that his actions are his and his alone?

You should know how I would answer this question. Do I blame McDonalds for fat people? Do I blame guns for murders? The answer is no. A person's decisions have consequences, and this nutcase will have to face the consequences for the decisions he made. I don't care where a person comes from, or what has happened to them in the past. It doesn't change the fact that the decisions they make in the present will affect their future for the better or for the worst, and anyone who denies this simple fact is a damn fool. Its the sacrifice we all make for living in a free society. Period.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
The real message of Loughner's book list

Liberals and conservatives claim the alleged killer's reading reveals his true ideology. They're both wrong

By Laura Miller
md_horiz.jpg
AP

No sooner had the media discovered the YouTube profile page for Jared Lee Loughner -- charged with killing six people, including federal Judge John M. Roll and a 9-year-old girl, and wounding 13 others, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., in a shooting in Tucson Saturday -- than speculation began about the favorite books Loughner listed there. Conservatives pointed to Loughner's citation of "The Communist Manifesto" as proof that he was a leftist maniac and liberals interpreted his enthusiasm for Ayn Rand's "We, the Living" as evidence that he was a right-winger.
Other books on Loughner's list (the profile was created on Dec. 20) include the children's classics "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland," "Peter Pan" and "The Phantom Tollbooth." He also claimed to have admired Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf." But the idea that this list will tell us much about Loughner and any political motives he had for shooting those 19 people is sorely misguided. Anyone who takes the time to watch the 22-year-old college student's videos ought to be able to see that clearly enough.
As the New York Times remarked on Sunday, the garbled, rambling and generally incomprehensible statements included in the videos (which consist of text only) are "consistent with the delusions produced by a psychotic illness like schizophrenia, which develops most often in the teens or 20s." Loughner's book list is also consistent with a bright, curious, rebellious teenager whose life has been arrested and derailed by just such an illness. In fact, the only surprising thing about that list is that it doesn't include "The Catcher in the Rye," a novel important to two other mentally ill shooters: Mark David Chapman (who killed John Lennon) and John Hinckley, who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan.

The sole ideological thread running through Loughner's list is an inchoate anti-authoritarianism. It's likely that what attracted him to "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto" was less the political thinking in either book than their aura of the forbidden, the sensation that he was defying the adults around him by daring to read either one. The rest of his favorites -- "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," "Brave New World," "Animal Farm" and "Fahrenheit 451" -- depict deceitful and oppressive regimes committed to squelching individual initiative and thought.
It's not hard to understand why Loughner might be drawn to such narratives. A young man whose slide into paranoid schizophrenia has been noticed and addressed (Loughner was suspended from Pima Community College and administrators insisted that he get a mental health evaluation before he would be allowed to return) probably would favor literature in which maverick truth-tellers are labeled as insane or criminal by self-serving authority figures.
By including Plato's "Republic" and "Meno" on his list of favorites, Loughner could imply, as many paranoids do, that by virtue of his superior intellect he was privy to hidden knowledge of how the world really works. Casting the delusional notions in his videos in the form of logical syllogisms ("If A.D.E. is endless in year, then the years in A.D.E don't cease. A.D.E is endless in year. Therefore the years in A.D.E. don't cease.") was surely also meant to insist that they were the product of rational thought, not insanity.
But Loughner is almost certainly insane and, like the countless other mentally disturbed people who send similar ravings to media outlets around the world, his ideas would have been ignored as incoherent and irrelevant if he hadn't fired a gun into a crowd of people Saturday. The fact that he did fire that gun, however, doesn't make his delusions suddenly meaningful. It doesn't make his list of favorite books significant. Crazy people who make headlines and change history are still crazy.
By studying Loughner's book list for clues to the political leanings that somehow "drove" him to commit murder, commentators are behaving a lot like crazy people themselves. Paranoids are prone to scouring newspaper articles and the monologues of late-night comedians for imaginary coded messages that confirm their "secret knowledge" about the world. But those coded messages aren't there -- it's just random stuff with no special significance. The truth about mental illness is that it strikes without regard to political affiliation or ideological orientation, and it turns beautiful minds into nonsense factories. We can debate a social order that allows its victims access to firearms and talk about finding better ways to intervene before the minority of mentally disturbed individuals with violent impulses are able to act on those impulses. But trying to find the cause for this disease in politics, ideas or books is just plain nuts.
 
Is the victim also responsible for his or her own actions? How far are we from saying that the victim's actions put him or her in a position to be hurt?
OK, I'll take your bate.
No, making the victims responsible in any way while doing nothing illegal or causing no instigation would be totally ridiculous.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
The problem is....the event is so horrible that sane folks try to explain 'why'. When it's a nut case, there are no 'rational' explanations. It just causes the "blame game". Anger, despair, confrontation.....all phases of the grieving process. It's sad and it's one person's actions that caused it.
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
Rep. Robert Brady (D-Pa.) reportedly plans to introduce legislation that would make it a federal crime to use language or symbols that could be perceived as threatening or inciting violence against a federal official or member of Congress.
This is because of a map used by Palin's 2010 campaign that showed target crosshairs on certain swing vote areas, however in 2008 the DNC also used a map showing areas with bull eyes . Is this a classic case of stupidity ?
 
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