apwa

[nospinzone]

The truth on decertification--please read

In replying to Mr BUG's prior comments, I would like to make a comment before dispelling his point. BIG UNION GUY HAS BLATANTLY PROVIDED AN EXAMPLE OF MISINFORMATION SIMILAR TO THE BS THAT TEAMSTERS OFFICIALS HAVE SO ELOQUENTLY FED ITS MEMBERS OVER THE YEARS!!!! They mean only to deceive you so as to keep the cash cow within their grasps....AKA...deny UPS'rs the pension and benefits we have worked so hard for. I urge all intelligent adults to THINK-------INDEPENDENTLY.

Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without .......any representation for a year....... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.

-Bug-

As stated in the Basic Guide to the National Labor Relations Act,

The Representation Election. Section 9(c)(1) provides that if a question of representation exists, the NLRB must make its determination by means of a secret-ballot election. In a representation election employees are given a choice of one or more bargaining representatives or no representative at all. To be certified as the bargaining representative, an individual or a labor organization must receive a majority of the valid votes cast

When the decert vote is initiated, members will have three choices: IBT, APWA, or neither. The only way UPS would come out of a decert vote without representation is if the majority of members chose "neither". I will repeat this again. Upon counting the votes, the NLRB will only recognize the choice of the membership receiving the most votes--IBT....APWA....or if chosen by a majority, NEITHER. I called my local NLRB branch and verified this information today.

As stated in section 9(c) of the Act:

Effect of certification. In addition to the contract-bar rules, the NLRB has established a rule that when a representative has been certified by the Board, the certification will ordinarily be binding for at least 1 year and a petition filed before the end of the certification year will be dismissed. In cases in which the certified representative and the employer enter a valid collective-bargaining contract during the year, the contract becomes controlling, and whether a petition for an election can be filed is determined by the Board's contract-bar rules

Following the vote, if the newly elected agent enters into a contract within the first 365 days, the contract becomes binding and and the terms of the contract dictate when a new election can be held. If the agent fails to enter into a contract in that time period, a new election can be petitioned. I know for a fact that the APWA officers have already begun writing the language of the new contract. Contact them should you wish to discuss this process!!

Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without a contract.....for a year..... And then how it can take up to another year to get a new contract. No contract for 2 years.... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.

The National Labor Relations Act does not specifically address every possible scenario. Law is developed through cases/decisions handed down by the NLRB and precedence becomes the established law. Should Teamsters win the decert vote, their contract would remain in place. Should the APWA win the decert vote, the precedence of STATUS QUO would take effect. The current guidelines and agreements found within the IBT contract would still be in full force and would PROTECT ALL WAGES, JOBS, AND BENEFITS AS UPS EMPLOYEES ENJOY THEM NOW. The NLRB website if full of case decisions which support the precedence of STATUS QUO. In 1982, an interesting decision came down in USPS vs National Postal Professional Nurses in case 5-CA-11693 (pdf file)where the USPS attempted to raise wages for only non-union employees while a newly certified union was negotiating the new contract. The NLRB found that the USPS was failing to bargain with the new union in good faith and the NLRB not only protected the current wage schedule, but also forced the USPS to include the wage INCREASES in the new contract. Bottom line is that UPS employees will not be left defenseless against the company when APWA is certified.

One final point....there are some very nice people working at the branch offices of the National Labor Relations Board. The lawyer I spoke with was happy to answer my questions. I recommend that you call them and talk to them personally if you are concerned about the election process. Visit the NLRB contact page and find the office nearest you. They were very helpful in answering my questions.

Forgive me for the length of this post. When lies are dissiminated, great effort must be made to expose them for what they are......lies. I hope that is what I have done here.

nospin

wily-vet.....im workin on obtaining internet sources to back up my answer. I havent forgotten about you.

 

[brett636]

Brett you are so knowledgeaBULL, where does all the money go that was earned off of my money they are holding.

Let me teach you something about a pension. You have no money in any pension fund funded by UPS. There is no account in any pension fund with your name on it holding money for you. You accrue credit with whatever pension fund is in your area based on years of service and age and that is the amount of money you will recieve every month for the rest of your life after retirement. Money recieved from investments are taken into account when it is determined how much an employer must pay to keep the pension fund running. That money goes back into the fund to pay the retirees and pay for certain medical coverages if that applies.

Keep in mind that people are living longer, and require more medical care as they get older. Couple that with the fact that medical costs are continuing to rise well above inflation and that can cause any pension fund to go down the tubes.

I am not defending the current multi-employer crap the IBT calls a pension, but I certainly don't believe the APWA can or will do much better and this is assuming they are a legitimate organization. A solution will need to be come to in the next few years, but that solution is not changing unions.

 

[30andout]

Thanks for the info brett, it means a lot to me, now can you give me a line of bull as to why I give IBT $65.00 a month.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Readers,

spinzone kind of "took the bait"....

He/She didn't really know what was involved with a decert vote.... that's why spinzone "had to look it up".... And that is what you can expect from the APWA.

1). No experience
2). Non-dues paying member.... They are in a "right to work state"....
3). Have never held an elected position in their own Local.

Seems kind of desperate.... after the fact....

The apwa's whole platform is the pension.

They could do so much better.


Here is the truth;


The apwa is professing they could get you a $7000.00 a month pension if.... and only if.... you started now..... today.... + 30 yrs.

The apwa wants to put your money in "American Funds"

And on the worksheet it clearly states "Hypothetical Illustration".

"Figures shown are past results and are not predictive of future results. Current results may be lower than those shown. Share prices and returns will vary, so you may lose money. Investments are not FDIC-insured."

This is what they are wanting to do with your pension contributions....

All that, and better representation....



The Teamsters Union is not the best Union because it is the biggest....

It is the biggest Union, because it is the BEST.



-Bug-

___________________________


You might not like what I say, But I always tell the truth.

 

[dannyboy]

APWA wants to hurt the Teamsters. Look deeper into these folks. Even if they were a legit organization, think about your Teamster brothers and sisters you would be hurting by having a UPS-only union representing us. They need us.
<!-- / message -->

You know, I enjoy playing black jack. And I understand that to really win big, you must play against the house, and the whole table needs to play together. That concept is great.

Problem is this. If I play at the table with 7 other players and we all play together to break the house, should we all not split the earnings? Why should I take the shaft to let you really win big against the house? There is no I in team. But why should I loose 5 grand so the other 7 can break the house. And then they look at me really funny when I ask where my cut is.

Collective bargaining only works if the collected winnings are shared with those that participate in the game. But to have the collective bargaining unit win big, but yet have members that lose big........something is not fair with that scene.

The teamsters has lots of problems. And until someone comes along to force them into changing the way they do business, nothing will change.

So at the black jack table, if you want to play as a team, fine, split the winnings. But if you dont, its every man for themselves. And with the game I play, I always do quite well.

As far as them not being legit, depends on your comfort with what they have to offer. They do threaten the status quo. And that will really make some people very uncomfortable. But that is really good news, isn't it? Cause they have to change the way they run the union.

Its not about them, its about us. They are there to serve us and are at our service. Problem is that they dont view us that way anymore.

Teamsters has as much respect for the members as a john has for a two dollar hooker. Get what you can from them and give them a little bit in return. And for sure, always let them know that they wouldn't be without the union.

Sorry, what you are asking is that we all go down together on a sinking boat, while singing the teamster recruiting songs. How much longer can UPS and the union UPS employees keep plugging the holes before we are sucked down with the ship?

Its time for change, and if the teamsters will not, then they need to be left behind.

d

 

[laborer]

dannyboy I completely agree with you and if the statement below is true then the powers that be need to live up to it and perform to that level....the best. I'm not saying the Teamster Union has not done much for the workers but they can't sit back patting themselves on the back with past victories. If they are the best then let them prove it and fix this pension problem that apparently was in trouble long before the take backs started. Competition is the way of the world and the Teamsters need to step up to the challenge or face the consequences.

The Teamsters Union is not the best Union because it is the biggest....

It is the biggest Union, because it is the BEST.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

nospinzone is spinning,

Originally Posted by BigUnionGuy
Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without a contract.....for a year..... And then how it can take up to another year to get a new contract. No contract for 2 years.... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.

Originally Posted by BigUnionGuy
Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without .......any representation for a year....... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.

-Bug-



That is spin.....



or manipulation = APWA


-Bug-



.

 

[30andout]

As I said before,bigunionguy is just that, NOT a hard working UPSer looking for a decent pension and representation.

 

[wkmac]

You know, I enjoy playing black jack. And I understand ..................................................d

Well said Dboy! Very well said.

It's funny that this whole recert. process has been discussed here before long time ago and the regulars who took part already knew what nospin said. However on the same turn, nospin in that and another post to wiley is having to "after the fact" go find proof to back what he sez. Not smart Nospin! Also Nospin, most of us here don't live and breath and think like "Big Union IDIOT" that the union concieved us, gave us life and all it's goodness and will probably be the one to grant us heaven when we die if we find ourselves in position for such a thing. You are preaching to a listening audience but you better have the facts as well. All this stuff you been saying we've been through, several times, so get your ducks in a row. The $7 per month pension is not for all current UPSers as in order to achieve it you'll have to put in the 30 years as well. Oh and were you going to tell us APWA has a plan to work with UPS to buy out of CS over a 2 year period by delaying pay increases to raise the funds to do this and achieve transfer of all CS credits to the new APWA pension? Please don't bother. I've spoken with Mr. Silkman personally on this issue as it was thrown around here sometime ago and other than a topic of discussion, it is not a viable plan on the APWA frontburner at all. The vast majority of us will never see $7k per month because we'll never work for UPS that long to achieve it.

Now to "BIG UNION IDIOT". I call you that because only an "IDIOT" would call the IBT the "BEST UNION" (your words). You just blew every bit of credibility you might have had when you posted those words. You are probably some freight dock worker who spends his shift burning up propane on a forklift instead of pounding the ground like UPSers and then he wants us to bust our to make sure he has the good life at the end. He and the union leadership have a lot in common don't they? Go back to Teamster Net you parasite and take No spin with ya.

Pensions are a dinosaur on it's deathbed. The vehicles of 401k and IRA's (for better or worse) will and are replacing pensions across the board in America. UPSers are looking at 2 realities IMO right now. The first reality is that we, not UPS, but we paid in a lot of money to a plan that promised us a good retirement and now we are learning that not only the promise of a good retirement really isn't true but that the retirement itself stands a chance of not being there when we need it. The 2nd reality is that even though the $7k per month is not a realistic number, the amount of money we pay in as individual UPSers if pulled together into a UPS only situation would have no trouble in not only paying us what was at one time paid out to retirees but likely could pay us a little more. Also using the current management plan as a model (again good and bad applies), you retire and you can do anything you choose from not working to working anywhere, doing anything you want. All the company needs from you is the address you want the check mailed to. Unlike the company, the union requires you to fill out a form prior to getting your pension that grants them the power to check your income tax info with IRS so they can verify you aren't violating the retirement work rules. Hell, I'm shocked they haven't made union dues mandatory for retirees too! Oh give it time. It's like Hotel California "You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave!"

Whether APWA is the answer or not, who knows. Yeah it has it's warts too. The one thing I can say is that from the appearance of Hoffa, TDU and their fello soldiers appearing just to carry the IBT water I can say APWA has them all very nervous. GREAT! EXCELLENT! OUTSTANDING! For that alone we should keep up the heat with the APWA, UPS only union idea. It's time we put some pressure on the IBT with the threat of leaving because nothing else has seemed to work in any way.

To take a little liberty with the immortal words of JFK, "Ask not what you can do for the union but what you could have if we (UPSers) were our own union!"

 

[wkmac]

nospinzone is spinning,

Originally Posted by BigUnionGuy
Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without a contract.....for a year..... And then how it can take up to another year to get a new contract. No contract for 2 years.... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BigUnionGuy

Maybe you could elaborate on the fact that after you get your decert vote, the employees will be without .......any representation for a year....... Please explain how UPS is going to be so generous in paying the employees wages and benefits that they currently enjoy while wating for your "team of experts" to negotiate a better contract for them.

-Bug-


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></I>



That is spin.....



or manipulation = APWA




-Bug-









.

NoSpin might be spinning but according to your post above he's quoting you to make the spin and then you support that by posting your own quote and calling that spinning! So who's really spinning here?


Like I said, "BIG UNION IDIOT!"

 

[30andout]

Well said wkmac, I feel I have been screwed around enough by UPS and IBT why not take a chance on APWA, I'm loosing already.

 

[dannyboy]

BUG

What is it with your fascination with things big? As Tie would say, lacking in other departments?

Its like this, you have had your chances with UPS workers. And just because you put out a UPS focused mag now after how many years, you want us to be impressed? That just goes to show how damn stupid you think the rank and file really is.

Lemme see, working without a contract. Would that be anything like our pilots? And I wold guess UPS had reduced their wages to minimum and done away with insurance and pensions? Why try your useless scare tactics? Oh I forgot, you think we are just a bunch of stupid little lemmings that can not think for themselves?

As for spin getting the proof for statements made, I'm sure you have never done that? Made statements that you know are true, and when someone asks for source material, it takes a while to get it all together? But at least he can and is honest about it.

Unlike Big ole Union Guy. Its the same mantra that the union has fed the rank and file. You are nothing without us. Absolutely positively nothing. And dont ever forget it, and while you are at it, you ungrateful pricks, dont forget you would have nothing now if it were not for all those teamsters that paved the way for you. So you need to pay back all those teamsters now that you are the one making the money and not them.

Spin, take your time, get the stuff you need, cross those T's and go for it. The rest of us can understand options, and right now we have none.

At the very least, even if leaving is not an option, then the teamsters will possibly understand our frustrations and needs.

d

 

[nospinzone]

Mac,

Just a general response to your viewpoint as I understand it. I think this statement from your post sums it up: "Whether APWA is the answer or not, who knows. Yeah it has it's warts too". And I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. I just believe that APWA has fewer warts.

As for your words "However on the same turn, nospin in that and another post to wiley is having to "after the fact" go find proof to back what he sez. Not smart Nospin". Ive known the facts about recert for over a year now. Ive had this discussion before also on T-NET, but I dont carry a complete copy of the National Labor Relations Act in my back pocket. Therefore when BUG made false statements, it was necessary to squash his lies with FACTS and not my opinion. If someone doesnt, then unfortunately there are others on this board who might believe his words. As for my statement to Wiley, he asked a question:

NoSpin-Here's a question from a retiree. If APWA does take over from the Teamsters what happens to the pensions of the thousands of retirees from UPS? Without UPS paying into the plans they would be unable to pay the benefits that were earned. APWA would not be able to pay these pensions. What is the APWA solution to this.

And I intend to give him a straight forward answer....without the sugar coating, and I want to back up my answer with verifiable sources if possible.

Mac, I can respect your opinion because it is cautious, intelligent skepticism. Your comment on 401ks and IRAs replacing pensions is accurate. Thats a transition that NEEDS to take place. For the UPS employee, maybe APWA is a vehicle that could move us in that direction. Here's an original idea from me. Ive never discussed this one with Skillman cause I just thunk it up after reading your comment. With the APWA in place, membership could, if they wanted, to slowly direct its employer contributions to an individual 401k. It would have to be a gradual transition, but in the end the 401k would provide more security than a pension. But your summation is accurate.....we just have to figure out who has the least amount of warts.

nospin

 

[wkmac]

no spin,
Who has more warts? Well obvious IBT does because they've been around whereas APWA is a baby barely yet born. I like the APWA idea but it's not without it's perils. And one thing before going forward, it is Skillman not Silkman. For some reason I've got Van Silkman locked into my brain instead of Van Skillman. My apologies to Van who I consider not only a nice man but in many respects a good UPSer and in light of his current idea, a good union thinker as well contary to what others in the union movement might think. His sidekick Danny Eason gets a tip of the hat as well for having the guts to speak out with Van.

Now as for APWA, I'm 1000% behind a UPS employee union. With IBT representing in effect some of the UPS competition, I do believe there are times the IBT has to operate in an interest more suited to the larger industry that to us as UPSers specifically. Having a UPS only union would place us under an agent acting on behalf of us and what's best for us and the company we work for. In some respects, the approach in areas could act more as a partnership than an antagonistic relationship. In other words we'd be in a better position to create contracts that provide for us and at the same time green light UPS to stretch into markets and areas that frankly the IBT would seem to protect in order to protect jobs and security for other IBT members.

Problem is folks like Wiley who have moved on beyond UPS having paid the dues so to speak but also folks like myself still going having put in 25 years are asked to give that up knowing good and well if we do that with what our money via UPS contributions does for the various funds, if removed, these funds would fold and die. We almost face a damn if you, damn if you don't situation. As bad as it is we know with CS we have something although be it limited if it does fold but the APWA for now is at best a potential promising unknown. As I told Van, if you want to swell your numbers beyond belief then figure out a plan that would take care of the current UPS retirees, give credit to current employee for service years worked and I believe you'll have people beating down the APWA doors. Until then the risk is lesser staying the status quo although it's a large risk indeed.

IMO, the ultimate solution I'd like that I'm not sure everyone would welcome would be a lump sum payout from the pension system to our 401k and then move on from there. If you did that the IBT knows they'd lose members at lightspeed and UPS wouldn't be happy because they'd lose the chance to control that vast amount of money to reinvest in the company as they see fit. And for those who believe that's a great thing I'll give you 3 letters to ponder to prove UPS ain't the sharpest knife in the draw. OPL!

 

[wily_old_vet]

NoSpin-Another thing you can research for me while you are at it. What happens to the retirement money paid for all those who are not yet vested? Seems to me that is a BIG problems with switching to APWA. When the bldg I worked in opened one of the centers coming into it had been in a different local. Those drivers had to decide whether to stay with their routes and start from scratch in a new plan or to stay in their plan and go to a new route. At least they had the choice. Lets say APWA takes over from Teamsters. I don't see drivers who haven't vested having any choice. How would you like to be one who is within a year of vesting and then suddenly you are starting from scratch?

 

[dannyboy]

in a different local. Those drivers had to decide whether to stay with their routes and start from scratch in a new plan or to stay in their plan and go to a new route.

Wiley

there is a big difference in retirement plans and staying on a route.

When they split our center, they gave us the option to go with central states or stay in the Atlantic. What a no brainer. But those vested or not would have not lost the time put in with UPS. The pay out at retirement would just have been less, and the retirement options would have been different.

Now going to another union would be something different totally. There would have to be issues worked out to phase the new workers out of the teamsters and into the new union. So my guess is that over the next 10 years there would have to be a hybrid system for retirement. That is unless UPS decides that the new union is that much better to deal with and buys the time in the new union. I know at one time there was a number floating around that UPS would have to pay the teamsters if UPS were to take over the pension plan. Seems like it was 2.5 billion, but not sure. It would be far cheaper to just start from scratch and have the new union take it over. That way they would not have to fund the retirement of all the non UPS retirees.

d

 

[dannyboy]

The money paid into the pension plan for Wiley while he was working was used to pay the retirees at that time. Just as the money paid into the part-time pension plan for me is being used to pay current retirees. If I were to retire with this company my pension money would come from the employees working during that time. The money is not held for you until retirement as there wouldn't be enough money then to pay those who are currently retired. If UPS were to quit paying into some of these plans it could cause the plans to go bankrupt and leave current retirees without that monthly pension. Looks like our little APWA friends don't give a rats ass about UPS retirees like Wiley, and would screw them anyway. <!-- / message -->

Brett

Not one of your better posts,......... in other words.......WRONG!

What you are making reference to is the social security system. There, they have taken the money paid by you and your employer and have spent that money on government budget items. So there is no funds there that are set aside for retirement.

That is for You and I, for government employees, that is different. They have funded their retirement and it does have a cash value, just like our retirement with the teamsters.

By law, the pension funds have to be at least 75% funded ( believe that is the correct percentage) or they will not be allowed to operate.

That means that if tomorrow, no one contributed into the retirement fund, you would still get a retirement check, just not as much as you were promised.

Now as far as insurance, my bet is they would cut that option, or raise the rates so high you could not afford them.

Take your last benefits statement from the joint council. Then you must divide the fund assets by the number of participants. To get a clearer picture, you must weight each participant differently, as some will contribute for 25 years, while others only 5 years. That gives you a rough idea of the fund balance that is "your share" of what UPS has paid into the fund, plus the earnings of the plan with those moneys.

Depending on the plan, by the time you are retirement age, it should be somewhere between 125,000 to 275,000. As I stated, this is just a rough estimate, but it will give you an idea of what is there for you.

So no, Wiley and others would not be left out in the cold as you imply, but they would most likely have to take a cut in benefits. The retirees from other companies would be hurt more though, and that is what die hard teamsters want to avoid. I had one on my route that was a teamster for 29 years, and his pension is $62 a month. Hell, thats not even enough to pay his union dues.

The best bet for new drivers is do do away with pensions from UPS or the teamsters. IT would be where UPS contributes to your 401K program. For anyone not participating in the 401K, they contribute 25% of what you could put in, you contribute 1-5%, they will match it 85%, 5-10% they match at 90%, 11-14% matched at 95% and if you put in the max, they match it with 100%. You would see no need for any retirement plan with that type of system. Most drivers after 30 years of service would retire with more than a million dollar retirement nest egg. That would allow the driver to take payments of about 7 grand a month, and never touch his principle.

 

[wkmac]

Dboy,
Your comments on a hybrid system made me think of a nightmare scenario for the IBT but it's a few years down the road and a bit of a longshot but still it's possible. As more and more UPS hourly people get into the 401k system and barring some economic meltdown, you may in the future have the bulk of UPS Teamsters having quite a bit of personal savings under their control and their portability unlike the pension plan. That being the case, the pension may become seen not as a prime source of economic security but rather a gravy on the biscuits kinda thing.

With that type of thinking, then the current fear factor we all have concerning our pensions become lessened and the threat of employees jumping union ships so to speak becomes a more possible threat. I use my on situation as my 401k and the fact that under the current CS situation I've gotta go nearly another 13 years makes it's easier to give thought to other options like APWA. Take my 401k out or make that nearly 13 years a lot less and I'm not giving as much consideration to the APWA idea. Also add in the potential of CS have even larger problems in the future and the APWA idea does give something to consider or at the least for one to ask the all important question of, What If?

The otherside of this coin is two-fold. The first is that the union operates off a pure majority rule and if 50.1% of the members decide one day to walk away from the pension system and move everything say to a 401k system, then what does the other 49.9% do? What does the union itself do?

The second side of this coin, does the union think outside the box and offer an alternative system where you can go either with the traditional pension or elect to place all your eggs into your own hands for transfer in a 401k or other alternative system?

The questions are not easy and they are many but the same can be said of the answers, especially the not easy part. I still believe at this time that the best solution at the moment is to take all current and retired UPSers in the various multi-employer plans and leave them there but pull them away into a seperate class to where all credits paid in are still there but all future contributions from UPSers will stay only there for UPSers and no one else. Also you remove UPS from all liability except for it's own employees. This does several things IMO. It likely gives us a vastly more secure pension system and it likely returns us back to near or at the levels we were prior to the cuts 2 plus years ago. It's possible in the next few years that the pension payouts might even grow and get better. Not a sure thing but possible. For UPS being removed from that larger liability would be a big plus and I also think in the end we would greatly benefit. For one, this whole argument over the pension from all corners would likely go away and we could focus in other areas.

I'll very much listen to all sides in this argument "IF" and only "IF" those talking are UPS people. Unless he/she can offer proof, I do not believe Big Union Idiot is a UPSer. Everyone else here in this discussion to my knowledge are UPSers and their opinion should be taken with great weight even it their position is different from mine or your own. Somewhere in all of this is a good solution but the question is are we will to but our muscle behind it and also place out fears aside and move full steam ahead to make sure we all as UPSers are secure. I'll also say this to Wiley as I said the Skillman and Eason, unless you show me a plan that pulls in the retirees along with the current retirees and either maintain them at current position or better yet make it better, I won't give consideration to the plan. Show me you're thinking of them and then I'll know you're really thinking of me.

Just thinking outside the box just a bit.

 

[dannyboy]

Mac

The whole thing is this. We can work out the details of a plan to where UPS employees both past and present can be satisfied. The problem lies with people like Biggun that have alternative plans for us and our money.

Yes, it bothers me that there are some people that will have to do with less than previously thought. But when have we become the great saviour that is needed to rectify the problems of the past with the teamsters pension?

As in most families, we need to take care of our own first, then worry about others in need.

The way things are now, our own financial stability is so shaky that to support thousands of others really does not make any sense.

And people like Biggun have a vested interest in keeping the system alive so they can brag that they are the ones that have built this system that works so great.

Of course you and I know that the system is past the need for repair, it needs overhauled. They dont want to? Then we need to leave. If the teamsters want to get serious about overhauling the system, then we should listen and compare. But only if it is meaningful overhaul, not empty promises like in the past.

d

 

[BigUnionGuy]

As I said before,bigunionguy is just that, NOT a hard working UPSer looking for a decent pension and representation.

I guess the 25 yrs. I had at UPS mean nothing.... Hmm....

Funny, you sound just like sawman.... who used to post at T-net on the same subject.... just like spinzone, who spun out.


-Bug-