confederate flag?

[bbsam]

150 years of the poorest school systems, the poorest economies, forced centralized federal government reconstructive policies and asking its sons and daughters to fight and die in illegal, unjust, and immoral wars at unproportional rates for the north.......yeah.... a bit heavy handed I'd say. Also, to say the south started the war shows complete ignorance of the subject....they may have fired the first shot...but the north's economic policies leading up to that shot , left the south very little choice ......in fact it's still argued today that those policies were instrumental in provoking it

So the South, after seceding and losing g the war, was supposed to be allowed to go about it's business as if nothing had happened? And all the woes and complaints and shortcomings the South has today are traced back and laid at the foot of the North and the federal government? Hog snot.

 

[OPTION3]

So the South, after seceding and losing g the war, was supposed to be allowed to go about it's business as if nothing had happened? And all the woes and complaints and shortcomings the South has today are traced back and laid at the foot of the North and the federal government? Hog snot.

President Lincoln ....in his writings before his assassination , thought the south should be welcomed back with a very gentle approach. The irony that he was killed by a southern sympathizer, and the president was probably the south's best shot at a somewhat "fair" reconstruction is escaped by many. And yes a ton of the economic problems, the poor schools can be traced DIRECTLY back to reconstruction policy's ......at the point of an occupying federal gun.......Google the poorest states in the union......most are southern......hog snot is saying it's not so

 

[bbsam]

President Lincoln ....in his writings before his assassination , thought the south should be welcomed back with a very gentle approach. The irony that he was killed by a southern sympathizer, and the president was probably the south's best shot at a somewhat "fair" reconstruction is escaped by many. And yes a ton of the economic problems, the poor schools can be traced DIRECTLY back to reconstruction policy's ......at the point of an occupying federal gun.......Google the poorest states in the union......most are southern......hog snot is saying it's not so

Well so much for taking responsibility for one's self.

Don't think for a moment that there wasn't a lot of resentment from to North toward the South as well. Photog referenced the Prodigal Son. There were two sons in that story.

 

[bottomups]

Should have been three.

 

[bbsam]

So in seceding, did the southern states think there would be no ramifications, no war? If they knew war would be imminent, they could not have contemplated defeat, that failure in such a conquest would make their lot better. The only way to fight that battle is to the bloody death. Losing doesn't make it better, does it?

 

[bbsam]

Should have been three.

There were. The third made sure he died partying in the foreign lands. You know, "Live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse."

 

[OPTION3]

So in seceding, did the southern states think there would be no ramifications, no war? If they knew war would be imminent, they could not have contemplated defeat, that failure in such a conquest would make their lot better. The only way to fight that battle is to the bloody death. Losing doesn't make it better, does it?

You said the south got off light....I responded with facts to the contrary, the discussion of what the south was thinking pre-war is a separate issue...I would be glad to debate with some more facts on that as well......to begin with....a fact you are not taught in your northern written history books is the fact that southerners were fighting not only for their homes and lives. but, their entire way of life( some aspects of it where abhorrent, such as slavery and bigotry....but some aspects were correct IMHO. Those would be, the right of a state to secede from the union, and the impropriety of a bloated central government to dictate what a state can and can't do( within the confines of the constitution). I digress, back to the homes lives and more importantly way of life.....1question if the south would have won, big if I know.....would they have occupied the north and "reconstructed"? I think not....they basically wanted to leave the union, and would have done so peacefully if allowed( I can bring up exhaustive speeches that prove it)....can the same be said of the north? History and the failed policies of reconstruction say otherwise.

 

[bbsam]

You said the south got off light....I responded with facts to the contrary, the discussion of what the south was thinking pre-war is a separate issue...I would be glad to debate with some more facts on that as well......to begin with....a fact you are not taught in your northern written history books is the fact that southerners were fighting not only for their homes and lives. but, their entire way of life( some aspects of it where abhorrent, such as slavery and bigotry....but some aspects were correct IMHO. Those would be, the right of a state to secede from the union, and the impropriety of a bloated central government to dictate what a state can and can't do( within the confines of the constitution). I digress, back to the homes lives and more importantly way of life.....1question if the south would have won, big if I know.....would they have occupied the north and "reconstructed"? I think not....they basically wanted to leave the union, and would have done so peacefully if allowed( I can bring up exhaustive speeches that prove it)....can the same be said of the north? History and the failed policies of reconstruction say otherwise.

I said that the South got off light compared to what the North could have done. History suggests that the losers in bloody civil wars don't retain even close to the citizenship or land rights that the South was afforded. Lincoln may have wanted a more amicable reunion but that rarely happens.

 

[Babagounj]

These items can still be found for sale on Amazon ;
• The Holocaust Hoax Exposed: Debunking the 20th Century’s Greatest Fabrication
• Swastika skins for your Playstation 4.
• An SS armband for when you cosplay as an SS stormtrooper.
• A Soviet lapel pin, to show your solidarity with the proletariat and the people who killed millions of them.
• A replica Death’s Head pin, just like the ones the SS wore while operating death camps in Poland.
• An iPhone case showing Piss Christ, a piece of art consisting of a crucifix in a jar of urine.
• A trendy pewter Nazi swastika pendant.
• This women’s T-shirt honoring Joseph Stalin.
• A canvas bag celebrating China’s Cultural Revolution, which killed millions.
• About ten thousand different Che Guevara t-shirts.

 

[MAKAVELI]

These items can still be found for sale on Amazon ;
• The Holocaust Hoax Exposed: Debunking the 20th Century’s Greatest Fabrication
• Swastika skins for your Playstation 4.
• An SS armband for when you cosplay as an SS stormtrooper.
• A Soviet lapel pin, to show your solidarity with the proletariat and the people who killed millions of them.
• A replica Death’s Head pin, just like the ones the SS wore while operating death camps in Poland.
• An iPhone case showing Piss Christ, a piece of art consisting of a crucifix in a jar of urine.
• A trendy pewter Nazi swastika pendant.
• This women’s T-shirt honoring Joseph Stalin.
• A canvas bag celebrating China’s Cultural Revolution, which killed millions.
• About ten thousand different Che Guevara t-shirts.

Your Christmas wish list?

 

[Babagounj]

Your Christmas wish list?

More like TOS'

 

[Babagounj]

Brazilian Town Proudly Flies the Confederate Battle Flag

While the latest media-driven culture-war frenzy leaves America doubled over in agony about the Confederate battle flag, the path of tolerance and historical memory is much easier in the Brazilian town of Santa Barbara D’Oeste, where regular events bring together descendants of some ten thousand Confederates, seven generations removed, for what the BBC describes as “a sort of family reunion.”
Brazilians living in Santa Barbara D’Oeste “still maintain strong ties to Southern culture,” according to Levine, viewing themselves as “ethnically American to some degree” and waving the Confederate flag as a symbol of pride during their festivals, which are held several times each year, in much the same way Irish flags are waved on St. Patrick’s Day.
The result is a smooth blend of ethnic and cultural assimilation, including an inter-generational mix of white Southerners and Brazilians, dancing in period uniforms and dresses. “A lot of people who are descendants of these confederates have African blood as well, so you’ll see at the party people with dark skin waving the Confederate flag,” said Levine .

 

[Sportello]

There are multiple reasons for the Civil War but primarily it was the South's realization that they were under the yoke and eventual control of the Northern States. In the South, it was the foreseeable extension of slavery that had to be preserved. In the North, it was the preservation of the United States and the ability of the National government to control commerce to the detriment of some states, in this case, the Southern states.
It was not until much latter in the war that slavery became a central issue for the Northern states, especially in recruitment after the anti-slavery groups in the North had time to educate and make people aware.
Keep in mind, at this time, the average Joe did not travel more than a 100 miles his his lifetime ... most were simply unaware and indifferent.
Lincoln's personal approach to the slave problem was to ship them all to Haiti ... the Ships of Tears much like the Indians by Jackson. That's why most educated minorities have a jaundiced view of Lincoln and hardly consider him a hero.
In Lincoln's own words, on Aug. 22, 1862, President Lincoln wrote a letter to the New York Tribune that included the following passage: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”

You just can't accept the fact that the Civil War was started because of SLAVERY, can you? The Declaration of the Immediate Causes for each seceding State clearly state SLAVERY as the main reason.

Lincoln's main aim was to save the Union. The last statement in his letter that you cited was “I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.”

Not as non committal as the section you chose to highlight, is it?

Your declaration that Lincoln wanted to "ship them all to Haiti' is a distortion of the facts. He did advocate voluntary emigration of African American Freedmen, and 453 departed for an island off of Haiti. A good read on the subject is here:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/the-le-vache-from-hope-to-disaster/

Lincoln held views on Blacks not unlike many of his contemporaries. It would be fair to say his views on race 'evolved' over the course of his Presidency.

 

[bbsam]

http://www.heritage.org/initiatives/first-principles/lincoln-and-the-civil-war

Seems the South had no constitutional right to secede?

 

[bbsam]

Not exactly a "liberal rag".

 

[oldngray]

The Constitution is almost silent on the subject of secession. Traditionally when the Constitution is silent then it becomes a matter of states rights but the federal government has encroached on most states rights issues. Now it is a less gray area but at the time of the Civil War it was very debatable issue.

 

[Catatonic]

You just can't accept the fact that the Civil War was started because of SLAVERY, can you? The Declaration of the Immediate Causes for each seceding State clearly state SLAVERY as the main reason.

Lincoln's main aim was to save the Union. The last statement in his letter that you cited was “I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.”

Not as non committal as the section you chose to highlight, is it?

Your declaration that Lincoln wanted to "ship them all to Haiti' is a distortion of the facts. He did advocate voluntary emigration of African American Freedmen, and 453 departed for an island off of Haiti. A good read on the subject is here:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/the-le-vache-from-hope-to-disaster/

Lincoln held views on Blacks not unlike many of his contemporaries. It would be fair to say his views on race 'evolved' over the course of his Presidency.

I realize that this was a long post for me but I stated "... primarily it was the South's realization that they were under the yoke and eventual control of the Northern States. In the South, it was the foreseeable extension of slavery that had to be preserved. "

So yes, even after thoroughly vetting the public school versions and multiple books on the subject, I do believe the preservation of slavery in the Southern states was a primary reason for the secession of the Southern states which led to the Civil War.

As for Lincoln, to say he evolved is obvious ... the reason why is in debate. He was a political animal to the core.

And for the uninformed, this is the South Carolina State Flag:

 

[moreluck]

Wow, a picture AND a thousand words....worth twice as much!!

 

[Catatonic]

So the South, after seceding and losing g the war, was supposed to be allowed to go about it's business as if nothing had happened? And all the woes and complaints and shortcomings the South has today are traced back and laid at the foot of the North and the federal government? Hog snot.

I see you conveniently forgot to mention the name of the war:

The War of Northern Aggression

 

[bbsam]

I see you conveniently forgot to mention the name of the war:

The War of Northern Aggression

If that's what the losing side wants to call it.