Contract news?

[705red]

All I saw that Red said, was that UPS has trustees on the CS fund, and they aren't being called out for their role in it. Also I haven't seen him "selling" the CS fund, and has admitted it's in dire straits. Something has to be done no doubt about that.

Thanks cole, it still might be to complicated for tie to understand! Tie is reading from a script and cant defer from it without getting lost! Hes able to push the blame onto everyone else but his almight ups management pals!

 

[tieguy]

All I saw that Red said, was that UPS has trustees on the CS fund, and they aren't being called out for their role in it. Also I haven't seen him "selling" the CS fund, and has admitted it's in dire straits. Something has to be done no doubt about that.

Really is that all you saw my friend?

 

[tieguy]

Thanks cole, it still might be to complicated for tie to understand! Tie is reading from a script and cant defer from it without getting lost! Hes able to push the blame onto everyone else but his almight ups management pals!

Lets see your teamster buddies are running to your defense and you are whining about me reading from a script instead of answering the point of why you are defending this CS ron scandel. That my friend means I am whipping your but with ease and now your brothers are feeling sorry for you.

To the real upsers out there suffering the screwing they got in 97 I am more of a brother to you then this brainwashed zombie will ever be. While he keeps trying to defend the 97 screwing you folks got I am telling you that you have to be wary of him and his efforts to muddy the waters at a time when good negotiations may finally fix this mess.

Red you should resign your union membership for continously trying to defend this pension scandel and for continously trying to again screw your brothers over when you read from the bogeyman in the woods script.

 

[RockyRogue]

No rock what he did was turn his back on his fellow upsers and accepted what we stood tall for. If he did what he felt was right then he shouldnt benefit from the contractual packages that WE earned, i bet he has no problem cashing that weekly check and cashing in on all the other articles like seniority, medical, etc. It takes a big man to let others fight his battle!

Once again, I can't say I wouldn't do the same as he did. UPS is my employer, not the IBT. Unfortunately for union workers, he's still covered by the union contract because he is an hourly employee. As far as I know, there is no way to exempt him from that contract and impose alternative wages, benefits, etc on him. I'd disagree with your last sentence above, Red. I would say instead that it takes a big man to fight his own battles.

Rock if you crossed you would be a scab! But if you cross and you feel its your right than stay out of union business after doing so, because your opinion is not welcome after that kind of betrayl!

I really don't like that term: scab. If that's what I'd be labeled, okay. I'm the one that has to look himself in the mirror every morning. My conscience is a little on the overdeveloped side, so I can't say I'd refuse to work if my employer gave a report time. Betrayal is such a harsh word, Red. If that's what you feel I'd do by crossing, also okay. -Rocky

 

[krash]

Rocky,
Sometimes we have to make a stand to get what's fair. Now if your gonna "report" during a strike because your sup said so, what next? He tells you to donate your ck? Work off the clock? Snitch on other drivers? Falsify delivery information? Drop some "choice" pkg's off at his house?
We do work for UPS. But we belong to a brother hood that has brought to us a collective bargaining agreement that requires a small sacrifice on our part from time to time.

 

[tieguy]

Rocky,
Sometimes we have to make a stand to get what's fair. Now if your gonna "report" during a strike because your sup said so, what next? He tells you to donate your ck? Work off the clock? Snitch on other drivers? Falsify delivery information? Drop some "choice" pkg's off at his house?
We do work for UPS. But we belong to a brother hood that has brought to us a collective bargaining agreement that requires a small sacrifice on our part from time to time.

Nothing wrong with having your brotherhood and clearly collective bargaining gives you an advantage in negotiations. Don't dispute that concept at all.

When the leadership you appoint asks you to make that sacrifice then it has to be for the right reason. Was 97 for the right reason or was it a screw job for the personal glory of Ron Carey. If Carey stays put and is willing to negotiate a upsers only plan that is protected from company control then the CS nightmare would not be forcing our people to now work longer for less. CS is not the only plan in trouble only the worst. In light of these dissapointing results you then have to seriously ask yourself who was right. Carey for pulling the plug as soon as he could or those who had the courage to say he was wrong to walk. You give the examples above of a supervisor coercing Rock to engage in unethical behavior. You could use the line "if everyone else walked off a cliff would you follow suit". Maybe Satallite was a little smarter or quicker then the rest and saw he was headed over a cliff. It certainly appears that way 10 years later. There is a need for soladarity in unionism. There is also the application of recognziing that the mission is misguided or that the order presented is unlawful, unethical or just plain wrong. When you look people in the eye and ask them to risk their lives, mortgages and livelyhood your reasons can be no less then 100 percent right. Carey fell far short of that mark.

 

[krash]

I was no fan of Ron "the crook" Carey. But I walked the line and supported my leadership. I feel the main concern was FT jobs and UPS used the retirement to divide and distract us from that. Now I'm not always happy with the contract and such, but I'm not always happy with our Government. I'm not gonna pack my bags and head for Ireland. We just have to come together and try and improve on the next one and get a slate together to change the leadership if needed. But the majority wins and apparently I've been in the minority when it comes to voting no on every contract since '87'

 

[Cole]

Everybody I know says they voted no too, and so have I. (scratches head)

 

[RockyRogue]

Rocky,
Sometimes we have to make a stand to get what's fair. Now if your gonna "report" during a strike because your sup said so, what next? He tells you to donate your ck? Work off the clock? Snitch on other drivers? Falsify delivery information? Drop some "choice" pkg's off at his house?
We do work for UPS. But we belong to a brother hood that has brought to us a collective bargaining agreement that requires a small sacrifice on our part from time to time.

Krash,

I want to be 100% clear: I wasn't a UPS'er in '97. I turned 13 that year. As a result, I didn't have a union affiliation. That didn't happen until two or three years later when I went to work for a unionized Chicago grocer.

And I have a problem with your examples above. Most are ethically abhorrent examples. The rest are not the type I'd engage in--period. Working off the clock? When h*ll freezes over. Snitch on other drivers? I'll plead the 5th on that one on these grounds: if there was an unethical or illegal activity, bet your a** I'd snitch. In all other cases, that's between me, my conscience and a higher power. I DON'T WORK FOR THE IBT!!!! A UPS officer signs my check. That is where my ultimate loyalty lies.

Nothing wrong with having your brotherhood and clearly collective bargaining gives you an advantage in negotiations. Don't dispute that concept at all.

When the leadership you appoint asks you to make that sacrifice then it has to be for the right reason. Was 97 for the right reason or was it a screw job for the personal glory of Ron Carey. If Carey stays put and is willing to negotiate a upsers only plan that is protected from company control then the CS nightmare would not be forcing our people to now work longer for less. CS is not the only plan in trouble only the worst. In light of these dissapointing results you then have to seriously ask yourself who was right. Carey for pulling the plug as soon as he could or those who had the courage to say he was wrong to walk. You give the examples above of a supervisor coercing Rock to engage in unethical behavior. You could use the line "if everyone else walked off a cliff would you follow suit". Maybe Satallite was a little smarter or quicker then the rest and saw he was headed over a cliff. It certainly appears that way 10 years later. There is a need for soladarity in unionism. There is also the application of recognziing that the mission is misguided or that the order presented is unlawful, unethical or just plain wrong. When you look people in the eye and ask them to risk their lives, mortgages and livelyhood your reasons can be no less then 100 percent right. Carey fell far short of that mark.

GREAT POST!!!! I state for probably the 50th time: I have no problem with unions. They need a facelift and a lesson in modern industrial practices but I have no problem with the fundamental concept of unionization. I'm one of the most honest, ethical people you'll ever meet (or so I'm told). Attempt to coerce me and I catch you, you'd better have a phalanx of people to cover your a**. Otherwise, I'll get it. It may take time but I will get you in hot ! And this is directed to both union and management: there is a big difference between a leader and a manager. A manager can be both. A leader doesn't have to be a manager, by the way. Its been my experience in the working world that if a manager is strictly a manager and does not display leadership qualities that I will not "run through walls" to accomplish a given task. A manager without those leadership qualities (this wasn't a UPS manager) once asked me to complete a task that required a run through a wall or two. I looked at him flabbergasted and said, "Wall? As in that wall? I don't think so!" Another manager that displayed leadership qualities made a similar request and I said, "Sure! No problem. Give me a few minutes." My point is this: Carey seems to have displayed leadership but his motivations were not pure and/or in the best interest of UPS'ers. Maybe it was for himself. Maybe it was for the Teamsters as a whole. I don't know my UPS/Teamsters history as well as I should. Make sense, Mr. Red? Mr. Krash? -Rocky

 

[satellitedriver]

. Satelite comes here under this topic spewing his opinion when it has no value on our contract.

You changed the topic in post#80 and #86 of this thread.

 

[satellitedriver]

Look im not going to hold his hand and bake cookies with him/her. Satelite comes here under this topic spewing his opinion when it has no value on our contract. He has to look in the mirror everyday and go to work with the guys he sold out, so im sure hes got thick skin by now, and if he doesnt he probably doesnt want to start calling names with me because he cant win.

Dear Mr. rED,
You are far better at calling names than I am. That seems to be your strong suit. There is one name that applies to you that I have not used since I joined APWA. I came up with it to consolidate the teamsters management view of dealing with UPSER's and you epitomize the term.
"REAMSTER"
It is the mindset that you represent, of us against them, that solidified my original opinion to quit the teamsters.
This company is like any complex machine. A component of parts. Each working in conjunction to reach a desired goal.
You seem to like to be the fly in the ointment.

 

[705red]

Lets see your teamster buddies are running to your defense and you are whining about me reading from a script instead of answering the point of why you are defending this CS ron scandel. That my friend means I am whipping your but with ease and now your brothers are feeling sorry for you.

To the real upsers out there suffering the screwing they got in 97 I am more of a brother to you then this brainwashed zombie will ever be. While he keeps trying to defend the 97 screwing you folks got I am telling you that you have to be wary of him and his efforts to muddy the waters at a time when good negotiations may finally fix this mess.

Red you should resign your union membership for continously trying to defend this pension scandel and for continously trying to again screw your brothers over when you read from the bogeyman in the woods script.

Tie if you think what your doing is whipping my but, please transfer to northern ill, so i can treat you how the union handles over inflated managers. NEVER have i denied the union is not accountable for some of the blame with the cs plan, when will you admit that ups is also to blame?

 

[705red]

Krash,

I want to be 100% clear: I wasn't a UPS'er in '97. I turned 13 that year. As a result, I didn't have a union affiliation. That didn't happen until two or three years later when I went to work for a unionized Chicago grocer.

And I have a problem with your examples above. Most are ethically abhorrent examples. The rest are not the type I'd engage in--period. Working off the clock? When h*ll freezes over. Snitch on other drivers? I'll plead the 5th on that one on these grounds: if there was an unethical or illegal activity, bet your a** I'd snitch. In all other cases, that's between me, my conscience and a higher power. I DON'T WORK FOR THE IBT!!!! A UPS officer signs my check. That is where my ultimate loyalty lies.



GREAT POST!!!! I state for probably the 50th time: I have no problem with unions. They need a facelift and a lesson in modern industrial practices but I have no problem with the fundamental concept of unionization. I'm one of the most honest, ethical people you'll ever meet (or so I'm told). Attempt to coerce me and I catch you, you'd better have a phalanx of people to cover your a**. Otherwise, I'll get it. It may take time but I will get you in hot ! And this is directed to both union and management: there is a big difference between a leader and a manager. A manager can be both. A leader doesn't have to be a manager, by the way. Its been my experience in the working world that if a manager is strictly a manager and does not display leadership qualities that I will not "run through walls" to accomplish a given task. A manager without those leadership qualities (this wasn't a UPS manager) once asked me to complete a task that required a run through a wall or two. I looked at him flabbergasted and said, "Wall? As in that wall? I don't think so!" Another manager that displayed leadership qualities made a similar request and I said, "Sure! No problem. Give me a few minutes." My point is this: Carey seems to have displayed leadership but his motivations were not pure and/or in the best interest of UPS'ers. Maybe it was for himself. Maybe it was for the Teamsters as a whole. I don't know my UPS/Teamsters history as well as I should. Make sense, Mr. Red? Mr. Krash? -Rocky

Rock under carey it was the first time since the 80's and last time 97 that the part-timer got a starting pay raise. Under carey he created thousands of new fulltime combo jobs that didnt exist before 97. Since then p-timers now can show a prescription card and only pay $5, and now theres been 10,000 new ftime combo jobs, also ftime employees have gone up roughly $10 an hour since 97, and ups gave these to us why? Because we are teamsters and have earned it.

Rock you need to get a copy of the contract and read it, you have admitted in the past that you dont use a stewart when your pulled in the office, how can you be sure you were not being singled out for those infractions. The reason i state that is because as a steward its my job to enforce the contract, and not look the other way when i see infractions, if you choose to look the other way thats fine, but when stewards start looking the other way its time to get rid of those stewards. So as a steward i see all the ugly thinkgs that happen behind close doors and i see how ups management will financially ruin someone while just trying to prove a point. Any idea how many wrongful terminations that i have seen to good people because ups didnt like them, then ups will draw it out through the arbitration process causing these guys to loose their homes, cars and even families, so if i have an us against them mentality now you know why, it wasnt on my part, i became this way from dealing with nazi managers. I have thought about resigning as a steward several times because it just eats me up to see this happen, but if i stop fighting for you guys who will fight for you? Or would you like to just keep going on with im only worried about mem and i make my own side deals to benefit me.

Sorry for going off a little but being a steward is a thankless job, and one thats hard to let go of when you go home!

 

[tieguy]

Tie if you think what your doing is whipping my but, please transfer to northern ill, so i can treat you how the union handles over inflated managers. NEVER have i denied the union is not accountable for some of the blame with the cs plan, when will you admit that ups is also to blame?

Sorry Red UPS fought to fix the pension plans in 97. Ron Carey fought to keep them screwed up.

 

[tieguy]

Rock under carey it was the first time since the 80's and last time 97 that the part-timer got a starting pay raise.

ugh. You're kidding me right?

Under carey he created thousands of new fulltime combo jobs that didnt exist before 97.

Actually one of the popular misconceptions that came out of the 97 strike. UPS and the teamsters have always had language in each contract to create full time jobs. It usually was 2000 a year so in 97 status quo would have been for UPS to agree to create 10,000 full time jobs. In the past though they would have been created as pkg car driver jobs paying 28 an hour this august. Instead what carey did was negotiate combo jobs that pay much less. So in reality Carey negotiated the same number of full time jobs we always negotiate only at a lower pay rate.

Since then p-timers now can show a prescription card and only pay $5, and now theres been 10,000 new ftime combo jobs, also ftime employees have gone up roughly $10 an hour since 97, and ups gave these to us why? Because we are teamsters and have earned it.

Another popular misconception perpetrated in 97 was that the part timers did not have benifits when in fact they had benifits better then many full timers with other companies.

Rock you need to get a copy of the contract and read it, you have admitted in the past that you dont use a stewart when your pulled in the office, how can you be sure you were not being singled out for those infractions. The reason i state that is because as a steward its my job to enforce the contract, and not look the other way when i see infractions,

Red do you just no look the other way or do you actively pursue anything you can find to disrupt UPS and be a pain in their rears?


if you choose to look the other way thats fine, but when stewards start looking the other way its time to get rid of those stewards. So as a steward i see all the ugly thinkgs that happen behind close doors and i see how ups management will financially ruin someone while just trying to prove a point. Any idea how many wrongful terminations that i have seen to good people because ups didnt like them, then ups will draw it out through the arbitration process causing these guys to loose their homes, cars and even families, so if i have an us against them mentality now you know why, it wasnt on my part, i became this way from dealing with nazi managers. I have thought about resigning as a steward several times because it just eats me up to see this happen, but if i stop fighting for you guys who will fight for you? Or would you like to just keep going on with im only worried about mem and i make my own side deals to benefit me.

And thats where we differ. In reds mind he sees ups singling people out and ruining lives every day. Red has never admitted to the fact that most discipline taken is justified. No its all a conspiracy to ruin lives. yet I see people actually retire from this company that have never had a warning letter and never filed a grievance. How can it be when we all work for such an evil company. :blush:

 

[tieguy]

Tie if you think what your doing is whipping my but, please transfer to northern ill, so i can treat you how the union handles over inflated managers.

I hear blowhards like yourself talk this stuff all the time. Once I take them in the office they change their tune drastically as they put their tails between their legs. Talk the tough talk my friend I'm sure it helps your ego issues.

 

[705red]

Tie if you think what your doing is whipping my but, please transfer to northern ill, so i can treat you how the union handles over inflated managers.

I hear blowhards like yourself talk this stuff all the time. Once I take them in the office they change their tune drastically as they put their tails between their legs. Talk the tough talk my friend I'm sure it helps your ego issues.

THEN TRANSFER ASAP!

 

[705red]

Rock under carey it was the first time since the 80's and last time 97 that the part-timer got a starting pay raise.

ugh. You're kidding me right?
Tie are you denying this?

Under carey he created thousands of new fulltime combo jobs that didnt exist before 97.

Actually one of the popular misconceptions that came out of the 97 strike. UPS and the teamsters have always had language in each contract to create full time jobs. It usually was 2000 a year so in 97 status quo would have been for UPS to agree to create 10,000 full time jobs. In the past though they would have been created as pkg car driver jobs paying 28 an hour this august. Instead what carey did was negotiate combo jobs that pay much less. So in reality Carey negotiated the same number of full time jobs we always negotiate only at a lower pay rate.

Tie, if ups put 2000 new package car jobs up every year how come ptimers to ftimers was about 5 to 1 ratio? Now whos blowing smoke, carey combined 2 ptime jobs which pays $8.50 an hour and made them into 1 ftime job paying $21 plus an hour.

Since then p-timers now can show a prescription card and only pay $5, and now theres been 10,000 new ftime combo jobs, also ftime employees have gone up roughly $10 an hour since 97, and ups gave these to us why? Because we are teamsters and have earned it.

Another popular misconception perpetrated in 97 was that the part timers did not have benifits when in fact they had benifits better then many full timers with other companies.

Tie im seeing a pattern of you being wrong alot here. I was ptime in 97 and it wasnt until 02 when ptimers stopped paying out of their pockets for prescriptions and had to fill out paperwork in order to get reimbursed. In 02 ptimers got prescription cards that the ftimers had for years, why did ups neglect the ptimers so long? Was it because they were banking on the ptimer not filing out the form to get reimbursed saving ups alot of money every year?

Rock you need to get a copy of the contract and read it, you have admitted in the past that you dont use a stewart when your pulled in the office, how can you be sure you were not being singled out for those infractions. The reason i state that is because as a steward its my job to enforce the contract, and not look the other way when i see infractions,

Red do you just no look the other way or do you actively pursue anything you can find to disrupt UPS and be a pain in their rears?

Tie i enforce the contract, its my job! Maybe if you did yours i wouldnt be so busy enforcing the contract!


if you choose to look the other way thats fine, but when stewards start looking the other way its time to get rid of those stewards. So as a steward i see all the ugly thinkgs that happen behind close doors and i see how ups management will financially ruin someone while just trying to prove a point. Any idea how many wrongful terminations that i have seen to good people because ups didnt like them, then ups will draw it out through the arbitration process causing these guys to loose their homes, cars and even families, so if i have an us against them mentality now you know why, it wasnt on my part, i became this way from dealing with nazi managers. I have thought about resigning as a steward several times because it just eats me up to see this happen, but if i stop fighting for you guys who will fight for you? Or would you like to just keep going on with im only worried about mem and i make my own side deals to benefit me.

And thats where we differ. In reds mind he sees ups singling people out and ruining lives every day. Red has never admitted to the fact that most discipline taken is justified. No its all a conspiracy to ruin lives. yet I see people actually retire from this company that have never had a warning letter and never filed a grievance. How can it be when we all work for such an evil company. :blush:

Thats not the only thing we differ on tie! Because its not justified, if it was you wouldnt be getting your handed to you at arbitration and you wouldnt continue to deadlock the same cases that you already lost at arbitration, in doing this ruining the life of the grievant! The reason people retiree without ever filing a grievance is i will file in my name and pay them in the resolution that way if you want to harass someone, you can harass me!

 

[RockyRogue]

Rock under carey it was the first time since the 80's and last time 97 that the part-timer got a starting pay raise. Under carey he created thousands of new fulltime combo jobs that didnt exist before 97. Since then p-timers now can show a prescription card and only pay $5, and now theres been 10,000 new ftime combo jobs, also ftime employees have gone up roughly $10 an hour since 97, and ups gave these to us why? Because we are teamsters and have earned it.

I'd agree with Tie here, Red. The last time the starting wage was raised was in the early '80's if I'm not mistaken. It was mutually agreed to freeze the starting wage at $8.50/hr. The TEAMSTERS signed off on that one!

Rock you need to get a copy of the contract and read it, you have admitted in the past that you dont use a stewart when your pulled in the office, how can you be sure you were not being singled out for those infractions. if you choose to look the other way thats fine, but when stewards start looking the other way its time to get rid of those stewards.

Interesting you should say I should get a copy of the contract. My steward told me the same thing a few weeks ago. I don't get pulled into the office for anything. If I do, its for a d*mn good reason. I've never been an attendance problem but the last couple weeks just haven't been good to me in terms of getting up the motivation to go to work. I'll pay the price for that. If I make a mistake, I'm going to make it right by accepting management's punishment. Thus far, I haven't been the victim of excessive discipline. When that starts, we'll talk. Management and I get along pretty well--by and large. The occasional jerk will cross my path but ignoring them and their antics usually solves the problem. If it doesn't and they jerk my chain excessively, I resolve it interally. I've been happy with the internal mechanism with those incidents thus far. I "look the other way" when its appropriate, Red. Management and I have an understanding about what they can and can not do in front of me. Once again, I'll use the supervisor working problem. If they are working to help me, hey, I'm not gonna turn down the help. If a supervisor hops into a trailer and starts helping unload (which just p*sses me off), I'm gonna put a stopwatch to 'em. I told a supervisor to stop unloading a few weeks ago and she refused. I let it go on for another minute before I pulled my cell from my pocket, called the sup's name and when she turned, tapped the screen and told her, "I'm putting a stopwatch to you starting now! STOP WORKING!!!" She stopped but she was in a hissy-fit the rest of the day.

The reason people retiree without ever filing a grievance is i will file in my name and pay them in the resolution that way if you want to harass someone, you can harass me!

Interesting tactic, Red. I'd like to see my steward pull that one. Be interesting how our management would react. I mean no offense but that's just bringing MORE management wrath down on you. I have a very strong sense of curiousity, Red, and I'm wondering if you enjoy fighting with management???? Do they start the fights or is it the other way around??? I have absolutely no problem with a defensive mindset but the stewards I know get a cheap thrill from rattling management's cage. In other words, they go on the offensive more often than not. This I have a problem with. Tie, you can transfer to DENCO ANYTIME! -Rocky

 

[705red]

I'd agree with Tie here, Red. The last time the starting wage was raised was in the early '80's if I'm not mistaken. It was mutually agreed to freeze the starting wage at $8.50/hr. The TEAMSTERS signed off on that one!

Rocky, it was $8 an hour until 97 when it went to $8.50 still not enough if you ask me.

Interesting you should say I should get a copy of the contract. My steward told me the same thing a few weeks ago. I don't get pulled into the office for anything. If I do, its for a d*mn good reason. I've never been an attendance problem but the last couple weeks just haven't been good to me in terms of getting up the motivation to go to work. I'll pay the price for that. If I make a mistake, I'm going to make it right by accepting management's punishment. Thus far, I haven't been the victim of excessive discipline. When that starts, we'll talk. Management and I get along pretty well--by and large. The occasional jerk will cross my path but ignoring them and their antics usually solves the problem. If it doesn't and they jerk my chain excessively, I resolve it interally. I've been happy with the internal mechanism with those incidents thus far. I "look the other way" when its appropriate, Red. Management and I have an understanding about what they can and can not do in front of me. Once again, I'll use the supervisor working problem. If they are working to help me, hey, I'm not gonna turn down the help. If a supervisor hops into a trailer and starts helping unload (which just p*sses me off), I'm gonna put a stopwatch to 'em. I told a supervisor to stop unloading a few weeks ago and she refused. I let it go on for another minute before I pulled my cell from my pocket, called the sup's name and when she turned, tapped the screen and told her, "I'm putting a stopwatch to you starting now! STOP WORKING!!!" She stopped but she was in a hissy-fit the rest of the day.

Rock every time you accept a discipline without a steward its a violation of the contract, and when you let a sup work next to you do you let them go into your wallet and take cash out? Because thats what your letting them do!



Interesting tactic, Red. I'd like to see my steward pull that one. Be interesting how our management would react. I mean no offense but that's just bringing MORE management wrath down on you. I have a very strong sense of curiousity, Red, and I'm wondering if you enjoy fighting with management???? Do they start the fights or is it the other way around??? I have absolutely no problem with a defensive mindset but the stewards I know get a cheap thrill from rattling management's cage. In other words, they go on the offensive more often than not. This I have a problem with. Tie, you can transfer to DENCO ANYTIME! -Rocky

I dont enjoy fighting with them, as im sure they dont enjoy fighting with me, but a violation is a violation. Ups wants to do everything by the book, the sad thing its not the contract book, which causes the problems. Obviously your not here for the long haul rocky but most of us are, so just try to do everything the right way, use a steward its not only your right its the law!