Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?

[ok2bclever]

sawman,

That sounds great.

In fact too good to be true and you know what they say about such things.

I know that UPS would have to pay huge bucks just to legally withdraw from the fund to meet their current obligations by law.

However, that does not even include such as "transferring" over credit or money to another fund.

If this is possible I would be all for it as long as there were valid protections and guarantees that it was so and would remain so and would be protected from UPS and APWA tinkering without the employees permission.

 

[sawman]

OK2,

That is the beauty of the APWA, it is of the employees, by the employees, and for the employees. The officers of the APWA will be more or less a figure head, a mouth piece for the employees. Any issue that comes up the employees vote on it and majority rules. My guess is that we will be voting on different issues all the time. The founders of the APWA are working hard to insure that it is set up as a TRUE democracy! Unlike the system that the Teamsters use where we find out about an issue after they have already ruled on it for us.

 

[wkmac]

I like what I hear also BUT (you knew that was coming LOL!) what will actually have to happen to get there? Right now we are currently represented by the Teamsters Union and as I see the first step would require to de-certify the IBT. This IMO will be a tall order indeed even with the amount of discontent among the membership with the union. Couple that with the fact once you de-certify there would be a period where UPS hourlies have no union protection at all. Now this could be good and bad. The bad is obvious as there is a certain percentage of management that has no ability to lead other than brute force and we will have trouble there. On the flip side there are some hourly employees who to be very honest should be booted down the road and the doorway open to do just that. The question would be would the vast majority of UPSers be willing to take that risk? This gets back to the trust issue I raised earlier. Secondly, can we depend on APWA being able to get certified and a contract in place in a short amount of time to limit potential damage if and should it occur? Lastly, is there a mechanism in the law that if we get UPS to allow us to do the 2 year wage freeze to build a fund for pension buyout that the various Teamster funds would be required to grant and except our buyout? If this is not the case and we hoping the Teamster will just cave in to our request I honestly believe we are just Pis#ing in the wind. They will not just roll over in this deal IMO.

As I said earlier, I like what is being proposed with APWA and I'm talking up the idea around the workplace but there are still many unanswered questions and alot of what ifs? I know these in time can and may get answered but right now I do believe the vast majority of us need to be educated on the entire process of buying the pension as it relates to the law before we can go forward. Let's know what we face before we move forward.

Sawman,
I'm taking you have connections with the folks at APWA and if you could have them address the legal side of pension buyout on the website I think this might help. Also by law the company can't comment one way or another about these efforts nor can they promote any effort and I'd be shocked to learn they weren't happy with these events but can we be sure they would work with us to develope a contract that would allow the buyout and set up what is being suggested? This gets back again to the trust in the company I mentioned earlier. On it's face the vast majority of management I'm sure would applaud this effort but the bean counters at Glenlake can do some pretty strange things at times that make no sense so again can we predict what they will do? I'm not negative on APWA and in fact as I type this my wife and I are talking about maybe I should go ahead and join to support the cause because at most I like these ideas being thrown out for us UPS Teamsters to discuss and we really need to consider many what if scenarios rather than just what the IBT feeds us and tells us to believe. I spoke of lack of trust with the company but with the IBT I think it is even greater. Thanks sawman for the effort and bringing this conversation to the table for us to discuss.

 

[my2cents]

Pardon the interuption, but to hopefully clarify APWA returns posted in their "Where's the Money" document on their website and in similar materials, which are distributed in APWA meetings, the numbers were crunched by adding up the total contributions made over a 30 year history and plugging these figures into the The Income Fund of America. What the APWA is saying if these contributions were invested with this mutual fund instead of Central States, one's contributions would be worth the figures the APWA supplied and if this total value were converted into an annuity, one would receive the higher projected payout per month. Furthermore, if one scrolls down on The Income Fund of America link, one can find its lifetime return, since its inception in December, 1973, to be in excess of 12%, by checking the lifetime rate of return. Additionally, if one checks out page 4 of the prospectus, one can find lifetime rates of return in comparison to the S&P 500 and the Lehman Brothers Government/Credit Bond Index. An excerpt from the table is provided below:
Income Fund of America
Lehman Brothers Government/Credit Bond Index

The rate of return UPS supplied doesn't seem unrealistic either over the long haul, even though lower returns were made on a one year and/or five year basis. Using data from the prospectus shows over a ten year period, the S&P 500 increased 11.06%, the Lehman Brothers Aggregate Bond Index gained 6.95%, and the Lehman Brothers Goverment/Credit Bond Index grew 6.98%. The Income Fund of America appears to be a solid fund, if one checks out it's Fund Profile. As one can see, Morningstar gave it a solid rating.

The above is my own interpretation and if I'm not mistaken, the APWA numbers were crunched by a professional money manager.

 

[wkmac]

Thanks for the info m2c but I don't think talking about "what if CS or whoever had done it this way" is going to get to the bottomline. Unless folks get real answers as to what the future is APWA will get no where. We need detailed info as to how, where, when and what can be expected not what we would have if 30 years ago we had done this or that. Not trying to slam your effort or comments as they do show what was not done on our behalf and makes one question further going forward in the current state but just trying to focus going forward so we don't trade one sinking ship for another.

 

[my2cents]

No argument from me wkmac. I share similar concerns. Just a couple I have: Will the pensions be bought out and at what price, or will they be capped off with a new one? If the Teamsters are successfully decertified, will the APWA be certified on a separate question in the same election in order to have a smooth transition of bargaining agents? These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of more given time.

I believe their efforts now are mostly to create awareness of their organization in order to attract members. As far as their strategy goes, they may be listening to member input at the present time to chart the course for the future. I believe the discussions on this board are a positive step in that direction. Having said all that however, I think the APWA should post a FAQ to answer these concerns. I also realize the APWA has security concerns, so in the short term, it may be best to posit your queries to their website. You are an intelligent and free thinker, wkmac, and I think the APWA will appreciate your queries.

 

[sawman]

WKmac,
You are right in that I am a charter member of the APWA and I also know the officers and many other members.
I will be glad to present your suggestion to the officers as to posting some info as to the legal procedures of a pension buyout.
Keep in mind though, that they are very busy right now traveling to different cities to hold meetings with UPSers, so it may take a little time. Also, I do know that there are lagal guidelines that they have to follow, as well as tactical issues with the amount and type of info that they can and will talk about right now, due to the Teamsters all out campagne to undermine the APWA movement.
But I can and will bring this to there attention.
Also, If I can make a suggestion.
The officers of the APWA are very open minded people and love to hear form there members on any idea that they feel might help to inform and educate UPS employees. So, if any of you have suggestions such as wkmac has, feel free to go to the contact us page on the APWA web page and email the officers, I'm sure they would love to hear any and all suggestions.

 

[my2cents]

To further expound some of tactical challenges the APWA faces are found in a document summarizing Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals." These tactics work best on the uninformed and the easily intimidated.

 

[proups]

I agree with WKMAC - getting out of the IBT will be a tall order. They will exert enough pressure on the members to make them stay away from any formal votes to oust them.

They have already exhibited that tactic at APWA meetings.

 

[trickpony1]

How about mail-in ballots to a third disinterested party to assure a fair, accurate and untampered count?

 

[proups]

Mail in ballots.....that would scare the heck out of the Teamsters!

 

[sawman]

The NLRB will be handling the vote, most likely by mail in ballots. Keep in mind the vote want be to decert the Teamsters it will be to certify the APWA.The NLRB will only hold one vote per year this is the reason for only a apwa cert. vote and not a decert. vote on the Teamsters, but once the APWA is certified and we accept them as our bargaining unit there will be no need for the decert vote as the Teamsters will no longer have any say in what we do.

 

[my2cents]

Thanks for the information on the certification process Sawman. The same process was probably used when the NorthWest flight attendants left the Teamsters for another union a couple of years ago.

Speaking of tactics, one can see the current use of them in the discrediting of Ed Stier.

Yes, this is a tall order. Rome wasn't built in a day either. The APWA is swimming upstream, although if the Berlin Wall fell, I believe there is a good chance for success. One attendee at the APWA Louisville meeting summed it up best by stating, "this is something that should have happened 20-30 years ago."

 

[ok2bclever]

I agree that certification and decertification procedures and elections are the domain of the NLRB.

The fact that the NLRB is comprised of two primary components, a five member panel and a General Council, all of whom are direct appointments by a very anti-union George W. Bush makes me leery to call them "a third disinterested party" regarding anything that may be seen as divisive regarding unions.

Still, it's the best system available for a relatively honest election and I agree that most UPS employees would love to have a responsive and effective union of just UPS members, both for contracts and pensions, including myself.

The key is figuring out how to guarantee the "responsive and effective" part.

 

[my2cents]

OK2BC,

Believe me there are plenty of liberals at the NLRB. I met enough of them when I had my Beck case with them several years ago.

 

[ok2bclever]

Ahh, the point is "several years ago".

The 5 member panel is appointed for five year terms with one expiring everyyear.

The General Council is appointed for a 4 year term.

A repeat president therefore gets to handpick the entire portfolio of both components that make the ultimate rulings.

 

[my2cents]

They still have to go through Senate confirmation. If not, then by recess appointment. Either way, I can't see how a so-called "Republican-friendly" board would affect this anyway.

 

[ok2bclever]

Well, hopefully it won't have a bearing on this issue and I am not saying it will, but you are saying you cannot understand why a unanimously anti-union led NLRB board and General
Council might not favor a neophyte group that wants to start a union up that potentially could critically damage an established and powerful union with a strong pro-democratic lobbyist organization?

 

[my2cents]

If the NorthWest flight attendants had no problem, why should the APWA? Chances are the Board itself will have nothing to do with it anyway. Its a simple election, which will probably be under the care of NLRB Board Agents. This is should be settled at the regional level. Speaking for myself, I'm not worried at all about the "anti-union" board.

 

[ok2bclever]

My2cents,

It is fine if you favor the Republican philosophy and I am not trying to argue that issue here as I know the leanings of this forum are hugely in that direction, but regarding how they treat labor versus big business interest is just plain a matter of fact.

So again, you are talking about an action in the past (flight attendants) which had a fully Clinton appointed board at the time.

If you cannot see the difference between an NLRB board that is unanimously Bush nominated and how they treat labor compared to a unanimously Clinton nominated board and how they treated labor . . .

Also comparing a minor little membership like Northwestern flight attendants versus the UPS employees in regards to how it affects the Teamsters is ludicrous.

Regardless, only time will tell regarding the success or failure of the APWA and how this ends up affecting all of us.