Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?

[wkmac]

Gee folks, I enjoy batting around politics but let's not go there here. We need to focus and stay on point or we'll learn nothing and achieve nothing.

That said I emailed APWA last Thursday and Mr. Silkman responded back about the 2 year wage freeze idea to gain a kitty to buyout the pension plans. He told me plainly that at this time this approach is not a priority so based on his comments I take it this idea we see thrown around here is just that, an idea so just thought I'd throw that out to the group. I also think it's an idea with some merit to discuss and investigate.

Mr. Silkman briefly said that he believes it's in the best interest of UPS to get us out lock, stock and barrel and he's also not holding UPS entirely blameless in this entire matter. OK2BC, M2C and others here that I know are longtime members of Browncafe and interested in this matter if you will PM me with an email address I'll forward Silkman's response and you can read it for yourself.

c ya!

 

[tieguy]

"Look a little further down the road.
Current rumor is we hourlies will take a two year wage freeze so UPS can get the 4 billion dollar buy out of the pension....thus the reference to "...save their (UPS) ass"."

Interesting reference. You are talking about UPS paying 4 billion to buy out a pension as saving UPS's ass?

In either case I don't think it will happen. I think the price to buy out a pension plan has gotten too expense. That is why I think UPS is going for the partitioning of multi-employer plans proposed in congress.

 

[trickpony1]

tieguy,
Loosen your tie and read my post as well as other related posts REAL SLOW.
The reason we lowly hourlies are proposing a wage freeze is to bank that money to help shoulder the burden of the 4 billion it takes to get out of CS. Hence the reference to "...save their (UPS) ass".
If you still don't understand I can draw a picture for you.
It is becoming apparent that we lowly hourlies don't want UPS to throw money at CS any longer. We want our money. We won't retire a multimillionaire like some managers but a nice retirement isn't too much to ask. This is why some of us are willing to take a freeze if we are assured it means a sweet retirement "...down the road". But then there is still that lingering mistrust of the company....why is that tieguy?

(Message edited by trickpony1 on April 26, 2005)

 

[robonono]

tp1 - Like Tie, I don't understand your logic. I stated so on this same thread a week ago.

Please, go ahead and draw the picture. How does removing your pension from CS save UPS's ass?

 

[trickpony1]

Picture this.
If UPS no longer throws money at CS that is used to pay other companie's retirees, at some point UPS will have its own fund that is so full of money that it will, once again, perpetuate itself solely on the interest earned. Then UPS can spend the money it had been throwing at CS for growing UPS.
Moral of the story? We lowly hourlies that are tearing our bodies up to make the company money get a decent retirement (proposed $7000) and UPS can spend the previously wasted money to their benefit. This isn't rocket science. It's a win-win situation.

 

[wkmac]

Tie,
There is a reason for UPS to buyout and that is in a nuclear scenario where all companies except UPS have gone out of business by law UPS assumes the liability to not only UPS covered employees but also all the other employees from the former companies covered under the same plan. This is one reason UPS was promoting the partitioning effort and to be honest one of the reasons I was for that approach because I'm not confident that scenario will never happen. I believe those of us covered by the many plans should give this consideration even with it's potential negatives because in the nuclear scenario UPS couldn't handle this and stay in business and we in the end would suffer just to protect those in other companies. You look out for family first before you give charity elsewhere IMO.

Now whether the economics justify UPS footing the bill alone to get us out I do agree you have a very valid point and that is why I believe the 2 year wage freeze to generate the funds needed has merit. It gets the employees and UPS retirees out from under a sinking ship, it removes UPS from potential a very hazzardous liability problem and to some extent if the 2 year wage freeze generates the monies suggested allow current UPSers to enjoy a nicer and more secure retirement without a penny increase thus IMO elevating attitudes to the positive with a better economic package without effecting the bottomline and some on Wall Street might not only see this a positive but consider the reduction in longterm liability to the multi employer funds an even greater positive thus putting upward pressure on the stock price.

Before you write this whole idea off as a bunch of union guys trying to get one over management it would do well for you to sitback and "GET THE BIG PICTURE!" Have a good one.

 

[ok2bclever]

robo,

wkmac pretty much sums it up.

A multi-year wage freeze by itself for any reason would have to be considered saving the company's . . .

In this scenario where it's purpose would be to fund the UPS withdrawal from the multi-employer pensions where UPS's legal financial obligations continue to increase significantly with each additional participating company's failure would certainly have to be considered saving the company's . . .

I agree with Tie that it is an unlikely scenario at this time and so the company is more likely to proceed with legal modifications to limit their liabilities at their employees expense.

 

[pkgman688]

Once again there is only 44,000 UPSer's in CS. Why would people in the Northeast, West and part-times take a pay freeze? I did the math earlier in the thread, it would take over 8 years with $1 per year raises. That is an accumulation of $35 in raises (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=35) over 8 years.
My question for APWA supporters is - Why should I take a pay freeze to help pay for your pension bailout since I covered by my local pension fund? I gain nothing by helping you! The only thing that I'm doing is twisting your words around help me out - "It's all about me and helping myself"

Plus, It's $4 billion to get out of CS. What about the other 26 funds? Sorry. Guess thats their problem since your in CS.

 

[wkmac]

Although I understand both points I see this not saving the company nor the UPS union employee's butts but rather working together they can save each other collectively and those of you who know me politically speaking know my distaste for that word. LOL!

Seriously, both sides are at great risk and IMO only growing by the day. Together we may have the chance to win in a huge way but old habits and egos could derail this process. Having reached my late 40's and nearing my 25 years with UPS I'm watching events and the actions of people on all sides and if I see an opportunity wasted I may pack my bags and go elsewhere as I'm still young enough to build a career with a more solid post career future. Never thought I'd see this day but at some point you just have to face reality and if need be just walk away.

JMHO.

 

[trickpony1]

Wkmac and OK2bc,

Thank you!

 

[teddyr]

A wage freeze is essential not only for buying out the pension but for future growth of the company as well. UPS has become a high dollar mediocre pkg svc. I have lunch with the FagEx guy periodically, and he leaked to me that next contract they will be going for the throat. The multi-employer pension is a serious drain on the Co. and employees. Do the teamsters care? I think not! As long as they collect dues from all teamsters across the board and get their paychecks thats all that matters. With 0.1 domestic growth all this pension talk could be irrelevant in 10 years. The key is to educate all upsers in what is at stake, as we know, ignorance is rampant at UPS.

 

[trickpony1]

"...that next contract they will be going for the throat".

Who is "they"? If you are refering to Fredex, it is happening NOW.

I used to see just one, maybe two, Fredex feeders pulling double 28 footers at one of my meet points. Now I see 3 or 4.

If we continue to bite the hand that feeds us at some point the hand quits feeding.

I can negotiate my ego but can the rest of us?

(Message edited by trickpony1 on April 27, 2005)

(Message edited by trickpony1 on April 27, 2005)

 

[teddyr]

FedEx, the main threat to our livelihood.

 

[teddyr]

Trick, If you think it is bad now, this is only the begining. I see one FagEx feeder for every 10 miles along I40 whether it be ground or freight. Dont foget all those US Express trucks you see carry FedEx express loads as well.

 

[my2cents]

Interesting point on the effect of a potential pension buyout will have on corporate earnings and the stock price. The short term impact would probably be negative, especially since the state of the pensions is usually a standard question during conference calls. Once the expenses of the buyout are finally smoothed out, it could help long term, given the low funding levels of many of the multi-employer plans. No doubt the cost of a buyout will be compared to capping off and starting over with a new pension. Additionally, who knows what the state of domestic operations will be in 2008. If domestic volume stays flat, the options with the pensions will probably be limited.

 

[my2cents]

pkgman688,

I live in the Northeast and our pension is currently 56% funded. The average UPSer has no idea how well their pension is funded. Do you know the funding ratio for your plan?

 

[speeddemon]

Thanks for your support pkgman688. You think you should get a better pension than me, when we do the same exact thing? Drop dead.

 

[sawman]

WRONG pkgman,
It is 2 billion to buy out of CS< 4 billion to buy out of all the multi-employer plans.
Fuurthermore, all most all the Multi-plans are in trouble not just CS. CS just happens to be the largest.
There are pockets around the country that are in single plans, but the majority are in Multi-employer funds, and since the largest (cs) has made cuts the rest are starting to follow suit.
So, you are in a very small minority of people that still enjoy a strong pension fund and if it goes to a vote, Sorry but majority rules and you will take the pay freeze just like the rest of us.

 

[ok2bclever]

Well, the reality 688 is if this ends up being a valid choice your area where a pension fund is not in trouble or headed that way will be in the clear minority.

There will be no need to convince you to be charitable, generous or take one for the team as you simply will be outvoted.

 

[accountable?]

Great so now we get to listen to our BA's whine about how we need to give our hard earned money to them to bail out 'our' pension fund. BTW, our local now also represents the local DHL drivers, who were apparently promised the same pension as the UPS drivers, but I couldn't get an answer about how much their company will be contributing. Wonder how much of our withheld money will be used to entice other groups to join our local and start contributing operating expenses (dues), but slack on the H&W part.