Herman Cain 9-9-9 disaster plan

[Jones]

As it is, the poor pay 7.35% in payroll taxes, a 1.35% spread on 9% sales tax. If the flat 9% income tax is also involved, that would be a 10.35% increase in taxes for almost half of the country alone

http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_589.pdf

Check out pages 44 and 48 on the above link, if interested...disturbing information and this is pre-2007 data.

Inflation adjusted percentage increase in after-tax household income for the top 1% and the four quintiles, between 1979 and 2005 (gains by top 1% are reflected by bottom bar; bottom quintile by top bar).[23]


Also under the 9-9-9 plan, anyone withdrawing from a Roth IRA would be taxed twice on that money.

They'd have to grandfather those Roths or face a serious mutiny.

 

[wkmac]

As it is, the poor pay 7.35% in payroll taxes, a 1.35% spread on 9% sales tax. If the flat 9% income tax is also involved, that would be a 10.35% increase in taxes for almost half of the country alone

http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_589.pdf

Check out pages 44 and 48 on the above link, if interested...disturbing information and this is pre-2007 data.

Inflation adjusted percentage increase in after-tax household income for the top 1% and the four quintiles, between 1979 and 2005 (gains by top 1% are reflected by bottom bar; bottom quintile by top bar).[23]


Also under the 9-9-9 plan, anyone withdrawing from a Roth IRA would be taxed twice on that money.

Not that Rich Lowrie and his real handlers. the Koch Bros. via Americans for Prosperity would allow this but if I were Cain, to deflate especially democrat objections, I'd kill the 9% income tax on all wage/salary related income under say $250k. The poor and especially the blue and white collar middle class would see an immediate windfall. People on the edge of economic troubles might be pushed back from the brink and folks out of work could take a lesser paying job and still for the most part maintain their previous lifestyle. Mortgage foreclosures might stabilize, some folks might even be able to now afford a house and buy one or buy up. Others may pay down debt freeing up more income to be spent for consumer goods which also help to increase jobs. None of this is guaranteed but they are possibilities none the less.

Cain should also lay out a very specific plan to cut gov't costs and what those targeted cuts would be. By moving towards a balanced budget and more important a decrease in borrowing money, our nation's economic strength would return and our dollar would begin to stabilize and might even grow stronger.

The 999 plan sounds good on it's face but it just lacks so much in specifics as to how it would work into a larger economic plan where gov't is clearly too large. Cain sez his plan is revenue neutral so IMO out of the box we have 2 problems.

1) Being revenue neutral, where is the pressure on Congress and gov't as a whole to reduce it's size and scope?

2) Even at revenue neutral, our present neutrality doesn't pay the bills so what are your specific areas of gov't that you will scale back to make "revenue neutral" pay the bills?

If revenue neutral means the Rich Lowrie/Koch Bros. plan will bring in enough revenue to balance the budget, imagine now the harm to the economy with tax dollars being extracted out of circulation in the private economy forcing us all to fight and chase an ever decreasing amount of dollars is supply. Now increase that amount of tax dollar extraction from the private economy and then how much worse does it get?

Cain, Perry, Romney and company really differ very little from Obama regardless of the screams from both sides of the booboisie but from my POV, regardless of either side, following their current modeling, things will get worse and the boots in the street will begin to grow and join ranks. In Kansas City Occupy at the food tent, the black flag and the Gadsen flag (Don't Tread On Me) are flying side by side signifying the growing bridge between folks on the right and folks on the left. Keep it up because the stupidity of the 2 party system will have you pulling your own empire down upon your own heads.

Another interesting sign is that on Saturday, Occupiers at one protest started dancing and cops started moving against them but the surrounding by-stander public observing started shouting and booing at the cops and the cops backed completely off and left. When larger public sympathy begins to grow towards the Occupy movement, it's game over for the empire!

 

[moreluck]

Oh, that's how it works !
I always thought companies expanded on supply and demands creteria.
So, under your logic, all these US firms are just sitting on a high level on orders, but won't manufacture any of them, until Obama is gone.

So, how many Americans are waiting for a new car as we speak, that can't be delivered until the future planning problems are solved ?
Good thinjg Apple makes those Iphones in China !
If they were made in America, we would need to wait until atleast Nov. 2012, before they could even go on production.

I hope you don't run out of milk or other groceries soon. I hope the food manufacturing plants can keep up, even if demand gets larger, and refuse to expand, or produce more.

We were ONLY talking about hiring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[trplnkl]

Why do you have to "wait for more details"? Why not learn for yourself rather than the usual "wait for your programming?"

All you have to do is contact your tax person, and have him calculate your projected taxes under 999 vs what you do today. Once you see you will pay considerably more, then you can make an educated decision.

Waiting for more talking points isnt going to help you.

CAIN is going to be the last person who will come clean about this plan. What has he said so far? Nothing but surface talking points. Where has he EVER mentioned the loss of all deductions? He gets around it by saying "we throw out the whole tax code".... and somehow people say to themselves: " YA! THATS WHAT I WANT"

My question to the C-9 is this: Why do you believe raising the tax burden on the middle class while lowering taxes on the rich is a better plan than just raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires??

Peace.

Oh so the details are not important? Of course they aren't to you because you would oppose the plan regardless, it is being presented by a republican.

You seem to be the one operating off talking points. I want to hear Cain state what the details are, just like I wanted Zer0 to state the details of 0bamacare.

He mentioned the loss of deductions in the first...or maybe it was the second debate. He didn't go into any details though about his overall plan.

I think we can agree that the tax code needs a major overhaul, as complicated as it is maybe throwing the whole thing out and starting over is a good idea. I'm not now, nor have I ever been sold on the idea of the 999, fair tax or any other "flat tax" plan. I do think the premise if interesting.

I'm not so sure the 999 plan would lower the tax burden on the rich, they buy more than the poor thus they pay more. I never said I was against raising the personal income tax on the millionaires and above. I have advocated that businesses should not be over taxed, because they are the ones that provide jobs. The problem is, regardless of help that has been given to corporations has not created sufficient jobs to make the breaks given a plus for the country. Something needs to be done to keep American company jobs in the US.

 

[brett636]

So am I to take from this that you acknowledge your percentage of the tax burden will increase? And if so, then you dont mind having your taxes raised to help pay the deficit?

As far as deductions, i dont care at all about your deductions, I just want you to acknowledge, so everyone can understand, that ALL deductions would be gone, and to say that a flat 9% tax would result in LESS taxes paid is to be dishonest.

Do the math. Lets say a person making 110K gross per year has 2 homes and three children. With deductions, the taxable portion of that 110K would be reduced to around 40K at 29%. Now, if you TAKE AWAY all the deductions, and ADD the 9% on repairs/maintenance on the homes, I would pay about 7000 dollars more in taxes under the 9-9-9 plan.

Then if you add the national sales tax on everything I buy during the year, my taxes for the year would exceed 10000 dollars.

The current tax code and sales tax spending has never exceeded 5000 dollars for me, so , all things being equal, my yearly taxes go up 5000.

How does this help me? vs. helping a billionaire whos taxes go DOWN to 9%?

A billionaire makes more money with this plan whereas I pay more. If there taxes go down, that means they have more money in the bank to earn interest on, whereas i have to pay more money out of my savings to pay the taxes I owe.

How do you reconcile this concept?

Peace.

All you have proven here is that you cannot do math and you don't know squat about the current tax code. Don't feel bad though because most americans don't know much about it which is why the 9-9-9 plan is so enticing. It eliminates a 10 million word mess that even the IRS doesn't completely understand sometimes.

 

[trplnkl]

Oh, that's how it works !
I always thought companies expanded on supply and demands creteria.
So, under your logic, all these US firms are just sitting on a high level on orders, but won't manufacture any of them, until Obama is gone.

So, how many Americans are waiting for a new car as we speak, that can't be delivered until the future planning problems are solved ?
Good thinjg Apple makes those Iphones in China !
If they were made in America, we would need to wait until atleast Nov. 2012, before they could even go on production.

I hope you don't run out of milk or other groceries soon. I hope the food manufacturing plants can keep up, even if demand gets larger, and refuse to expand, or produce more.

Like she said, you do not think logically.
A company's bottom line will expand based on supply and demand, yes. However, the kind of expansion the More was referring to is when a business is doing well with what they currently have and making a nice profit they may build a new, larger building and expand with new lines of products they don't currently carry. This will call for more employees. Or,they may add a store in another part of town or in another city creating more jobs. If the company is unsure of what restrictions the government might apply or if their tax burden is going to double, they will hold off on expansion plans.

If your hot dog cart is making good bucks on the north side of the stadium but you don't draw much traffic from the south side, you may consider getting a second cart to set up on the south side to increase your income, you'll hire someone to operate one of your carts. But if you are not sure what the stadium's management will do that could ruin you business, you won't make that investment.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

I'm not so sure the 999 plan would lower the tax burden on the rich, they buy more than the poor thus they pay more. I never said I was against raising the personal income tax on the millionaires and above. I have advocated that businesses should not be over taxed, because they are the ones that provide jobs. The problem is, regardless of help that has been given to corporations has not created sufficient jobs to make the breaks given a plus for the country. Something needs to be done to keep American company jobs in the US.

Prove it.

Relative to total earnings, I would bet you dimes to donuts that the "wealthy" would spend MUCH LESS than the poor regarding taxable items and services.

 

[trplnkl]

Prove it.

Relative to total earnings, I would bet you dimes to donuts that the "wealthy" would spend MUCH LESS than the poor regarding taxable items and services.

How many poor people do you know that own yachts? I'm talking about for goods & services total dollars spent and the total tax burden. I said nothing about it being relative to earnings.

My donuts can't be bought with dimes. Dollars pardner dollars.

 

[klein]

How many poor people do you know that own yachts? I'm talking about for goods & services total dollars spent and the total tax burden. I said nothing about it being relative to earnings.

My donuts can't be bought with dimes. Dollars pardner dollars.

How many rich people spend their entire pay check every month, just to get by ?
The poor do ! So, everything they earned will be taxed.

The rich save and invest, which remains tax free !
Meaning, they wouldn't pay a National Sales tax on all their income. Just a small percent of it, actually.

And the super rich, buy their clothes in Paris, or London, and spend a lot of their money overseas, even jewlery or auctions, paintings, art, collectibles, etc.

Look at Cowell Simon, he earns most of his money in the US, has his mansion just outside of Paris, lives mostly in the UK, spends very little in the US, compared to his other 2 places of residency.

 

[moreluck]

....."All you have to do is contact your tax person, and have him calculate your projected taxes under 999 vs what you do today. Once you see you will pay considerably more, then you can make an educated decision........" (Tos)

Talk about a bad decision.....why in the world would I pay a tax person (they aren't free) to calculate some plan that may never be? That's stupid , idiotic and just plain-ass dumb!!!!

 

[moreluck]

How many rich people spend their entire pay check every month, just to get by ?
The poor do ! So, everything they earned will be taxed.

The rich save and invest, which remains tax free !
Meaning, they wouldn't pay a National Sales tax on all their income. Just a small percent of it, actually.

And the super rich, buy their clothes in Paris, or London, and spend a lot of their money overseas, even jewlery or auctions, paintings, art, collectibles, etc.

Look at Cowell Simon, he earns most of his money in the US, has his mansion just outside of Paris, lives mostly in the UK, spends very little in the US, compared to his other 2 places of residency.

This is where you have no clue!! People along all the various degrees of wealth, live paycheck to paycheck!!! One family's house and car payment may total $1300 and another's is $4000. Most everybody , with the exception of the uber-rich, lives paycheck to paycheck.

 

[klein]

If people spend every dime they earn monthly, then I don't consider them rich. They have no savings, nothing to withdraw from in bad times.
They aren't rich, just want to live the rich style - big difference.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

How many poor people do you know that own yachts? I'm talking about for goods & services total dollars spent and the total tax burden. I said nothing about it being relative to earnings.

My donuts can't be bought with dimes. Dollars pardner dollars.

I hope you are not questioning whether the rich will pay more.

 

[trplnkl]

I hope you are not questioning whether the rich will pay more.

uh, no...actually I said: they buy more than the poor thus they pay more.". Sound familiar?

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Still, no facts.

Consumption-

a typical 50k family of 4 ( lower-middle class?) would consume 15-25k ? save a little?

a typical 250k-1 mil family of 4 (wealthy) would consume how much?

You tell me, because I don't usually hang out with them. 50k? 100k?

Show me the math, the stats, consumption vs earnings.

I do know that most well-off (at least 100-300k incomes) do not spend much, and their frugality is what brought them to a well-off state.

Let's assume 250k -1mil income bracket spends 25k-100k a year in their yachts , summer homes, golf clubs, escorts/"worldly destinations", ....
Who's paying the greater % into taxations?

The 50k family, 15k-25k (avg 40%?) or the wealthy 250k-1 mil, 25k-100k (10%)

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Does anyone hear that sucking sound....sccchhhhooooopppppp....money sucked right into the gut of the oligarchy

 

[moreluck]

Does anyone hear that sucking sound....sccchhhhooooopppppp....money sucked right into the gut of the oligarchy

Calm down, it's just your Jello!!

 

[klein]

The only way trinkle will understand how it works, is if the government was there to distribute the net income of everyone.
I.E : The medium income person gets a visit from the IRS and gets asked how much he is planning on spending of this paycheck - he answers, hmm all of it.... response : Ok, minus 9% on all of it - it`s all taxable.

Now the IRS visits the Rich guy, same question.... rich guy says, well, only $10K of the $1 Million I earned this month.
Ok, you can keep the $990.000, but we do need to tax the $10K with 9%.

Get it now trinkle ?

 

[trplnkl]

The only way trinkle will understand how it works, is if the government was there to distribute the net income of everyone.
I.E : The medium income person gets a visit from the IRS and gets asked how much he is planning on spending of this paycheck - he answers, hmm all of it.... response : Ok, minus 9% on all of it - it`s all taxable.

Now the IRS visits the Rich guy, same question.... rich guy says, well, only $10K of the $1 Million I earned this month.
Ok, you can keep the $990.000, but we do need to tax the $10K with 9%.

Get it now trinkle ?

You sure wasted a lot of your time typing that out Klenex. I didn't even need a calculator to figure that out. Are you taking obvious lessons from TOS?

Guess what, I am IN the medium income bracket.

 

[klein]

Gee, it's been 20 years since we have the GST here, and today, I even failed....

Went to Safeway to pick up my $500 watch I won, and also bought a Deli entree (pre packaged - just needs to be heated up in the microwave).
Was $4.99, so took a $5.00 bill out of my pocket, plus another 3 pennys to make up the tax....

I was fooled, no tax - since that item is not a "ready to eat" item.
So, just had to pay $4.99 - no tax.

Now, if that would have been a left-over grilled BBQ chicken, late in the evening, and would have been cold by now, and needed to be re-heated, I still would have paid the 5% tax.

That's how complicated it gets here.

But your Herman Cain has that all figured out : Tax everything, food included, cold, hot, raw veggies, no matter what - tax it all !