High Speed Rail

[toonertoo]

You know what? I totally agree! We ARE a spoiled nation. We DO want the biggest, baddest of all.

We want the most expensive toilet seat for our nation's leaders! We want our legislators to go on vacation whenever there is pending bills to discuss. We want our legislators to NEVER have to pay Social Security and to be able to retire at the same salary they currently make. We want our First Lady to go to Africa to spread goodwill at our expense. We want our leaders to have the time to sext to anyone we want. We want this country to blow a rocket to the moon and bring back...uh, rocks. I want to, almost, be forced (locally) to recycle into 3 different containers a week only to watch as one big bin truck comes and all 3 containers get dumped into it.

I want my, almost gone house because of the flooding in the Midwest, to be viewed by Pres Obama and have him write me a check. Instead, he's on the other side of the state, campaigning! I'm spoiled! I want what I paid for!

I want the Social Security Administration to catch lawbreakers. Locally, boy, DID they! It only took em 20 years! The daughter was caught after that time frame for accepting SS payments for her mother, WHO'D BEEN DEAD 20 YEARS!!!! You know HOW they caught it? Mom was turning 104 so they thought they might do a routine check!


Yeah, you're right! This is the mindset of America. It's MY mindset. And you know what? I ain't gonna change UNTIL, notice, UNTIL, this gooberment takes the lead. And not on paper, in deeds, in action, in leadership. It ain't gonna happen.

Spoiled? Yes, I'd LIKE to be. At 64, retired, I thought I had everything I worked for. I didn't lack anything. That is, until now. The US ARMY Corps of Engineers, in their boundless wisdom, is now flooding the whole Missouri River Valley. Another town went under last night. I won't go into details but the general consensus is that they dropped the ball this spring in releasing water. They gonna help me rebuild my house? Oh, they'll probably HELP me qualify for a low interest rebuilding loan. Yeah, thanks. When the country sends BILLIONS to EACH AND EVERY country that hates America and wants all Americans dead. Take the lead America. HERE!!!!!!

This country's gonna go down because of oil consumption? Hardly. It's gonna go down because of lack of leadership, ON ALL LEVELS, Dems, Reps, Ind, TP, all.


Yeah, ridership on a train is gonna change the world. You ever been on a train? It's like boarding, you wanna call "America's Most Wanted" and say, "Un, I think I've found em all".


Carry on


Race

Please continue, and tell us how you really feel! I think I am in loveagain.

 

[The Other Side]

Huh? "Boy oh boy...where to start. Lets start with social security."

I wrote about 7 paragraphs on various issue I'm facing or haved face right now and you start with one of the smallest issues in my diatribe and then misinterpret! Did I say anything about SS failing and who's to blame? Go back and read. I was merely reflecting on an issue of accountibility here. It took administrators 20 years to catch someone! Did I go into what it was intended for and who is now included or how it's gonna fail or who is helping it fail? And if you wanna compare Dems to Reps...under whose administration is SS now? Your reply? "Change takes time". Not with me! If I'm boss, I can change something NOW!

Focus.

Carry on

Race

I see you missed the point.

Let me simplify it for you. You mentioned 1 person "stealing" from the system as if that ONE person was killing the system, and yet, you fail to realize the microscopic effect of this ONE person on the system versus the larger thefts by past presidents.

The republicans would have your focal point on this one person in order to distract you from the real theives of social security.

You gave me plenty to work with, unfortunately, time is on your side. I chose this ONE issue to start with. I will disect the remainder of your post in time.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Peace.

 

[Babagounj]

Big cars & trucks will never be replaced by small cars nor high speed rail.
The demand of them is not there, nor matter what any administration wishes for.
I personally feel , when I see a smart car, or mini, or Fiat , a rolling coffin. Mind you these are the vehicles that go flying pass me on the highway, someplace they should not be. After all the are made for urban driving, not highways.

 

[wkmac]

Boy oh boy... where to start.

Reading some of your response, I'm incline to agree with the remark above for starters.

Lets start with social security.

OK, let's do that.

You have to understand, Social Security isn't failing because its a "failing" program, not at all, its a program that was intended on helping women and children who were widowed during WWII. It was expanded later to include senior citizens due to the rising cost of living and the standards of wages that were so low from 1920 through 1966 that an average person could not save enough to retire on.

So SS, was started to help women and children as a result of WW2? So let's establish the historical timeline shall we and then apply your conclusion. In what year was Social Security started? "Alex, I'd like to go with 1935' for $500 please!" And the year WW2 started? "Alex, 1939' for $400!" Unless you hold a view of conspiracy theory that FDR had foreknowledge of WW2 and hence the SS Act was an economic fallback to absorb the known blowback of war, then the statement above is incorrect. Now the part about women and children is correct and the opening paragraph of the act supports that part of your claim.

AN ACT to provide for the general welfare by establishing a system of Federal old-age benefits, and by enabling the several States to make more adequate provision for aged persons, blind persons, dependent and crippled children, maternal and child welfare, public health, and the administration of their unemployment compensation laws; to establish a Social Security Board; to raise revenue; and for other purposes.

But before you cheerlead this whole thing on it's illusions of good deeds, you might....hold on a second...Hey Brett, move along as this part looks into that deep stuff again and I don't want to waste your time... OK, sorry TOS.. anywho, you might look deeper below the surface and check out the activities of the folks FDR brought into his administration early on who were leaders of then corp. America. If big scale Corp. America today is trying to shift it's employee healthcare onto the state, is it possible that the blowback from the late 19th century/early 20th century industrialized employee class which moved off the land/self employed/craftsman work and into industrialized cities were creating an underclass whose weight could ultimately topple the very economic structures the state and big business has created eg the centralized economy? That weight began to show itself as the depression wore on not unlike today and thus in 1934' under the authority of the National Industrial Recovery Act, FDR created the Committee on Economic Security by executive order. On the committee were various federal cabinet level operatives but the most interesting was the official advisory committee to the executive committee. This advisory committee was a very diverse array from union leaders, minds of higher education, even representative of mutual aid societies but also the following captains of industry:

Gerard Swope, president, General Electric Co., New York City.
Morris E. Leeds, president, Leeds & Northrop, Philadelphia, Pa.
Sam Lewisohn, vice president, Miami Copper Co., New York City.
Walter C. Teagle, president, Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey, New York City.
Marion B. Folsom, assistant treasurer, Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, N. Y.

source

Swope is interesting because in the 1920's he was a very reform minded company leader who within the framework of General Electric had a very different approach to industrial management. This new approach however was an opportunity to shift the burden and responsibility of industrial management's blowback off the backs of corp. America if you will and onto the backs of present and future taxpayers. The union leaders in the room went along because the industrial employment model was job security and the gov't hand was nothing more than you wash my back, I'll wash your's. Gov't, the bosses and labor leaders have been working together for years to screw us over and we've yet to have the brains or guts to stand up to all of them. Oh and one other interesting fact worth noting, the Committee on Economic Security when working up the social security scheme created 10 volumes worth of documentation and data and only a small amount has been summarized and made public. The bulk of those volumes still to this day remain secret. Hmmmm Committee on Economic Security for Social Secrity SECRET. Hillarycare meetings SECRET. Cheney's energy meetings SECRET. Obama's meeting with Big Pharma SECRET. See a pattern here?

This voluntary program was working fine until Ronald Reagan starting placing I.O.U's into the fund while growing the military arm of this country with YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY money. Again with BUSH 1 social security was borrowed from, then with Clinton, he also took money out of the fund.

For starters, if the program is voluntary as you say then prove it to me by going in and telling UPS to stop all withholding of Social Security taxes? Notify IRS of you intentions to "VOLUNTARILY" withdraw from their wonderful benefit program but just make sure you post a forwarding address of the federal prison camp to which you are assigned. What's that you say, the term "prison camp" is nothing but hyperbolic nonsense? Really?

As to Reagan dipping into SS and issuing IOU's, it does make for good press but it masks the truth of what SS was all along. In a manner of speaking in a Bernays/Lippmann kind of way, you are correct but you might consider the legislative and then judicial history of what we know today as the social security system. First place to start is the Railroad Retirement Act of 1934' and the precursor model to our now Social Security Act. This act applied to only railroad employees and was the test model for a larger design to come later. This act was challenged in court and went all the way to SCOTUS. The case, Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad (295 US 330) in the syllabus at sec. 6 stated the following:

6. This Act purported to establish a compulsory retirement and pension system for all interstate carriers by railroad. A fund, to be deposited in the national treasury and administered by a governmental Board, was to be created and kept up by enforced contributions from all the carriers and their employees. The sums payable by employees were to be percentages of their current compensation, and the sums payable by each carrier double the total payable by its employees....

It goes on to describe a retirement program exactly like SS and Alton argued that the Constitution did not delegate the authority of Congress even under the commerce clause to create what in effect was an insurance annuity program for retirement benefits and the high court agreed. 6 months later we get the Social Security Act but this time the gov't is prepared for the court challenge and in Helvering v. Davis (301 US 619) the gov't argues this is a tax (excise on employers and income on employees) and delegated constitutional authority under Art. 1 Sec. 8 and they are correct in this new approach. But in this lay the foundation to the very problem we now face today. You see, under Art. 1 Sec. 8 all those taxes are of a general revenue nature and thus when collected go into the general treasury. Because the gov't could now show this whereas under Alton Railroad it was account specific and set aside as such, the court rightly upheld the new Social Security.

But what about that trust fund? Ah yes, let's look at the Helvering and the opinion of the court.

The first section of this title creates an account in the United States Treasury to be known as the "Old-Age [p*636] Reserve Account." ' 201. No present appropriation, however, is made to that account. All that the statute does is to authorize appropriations annually thereafter, beginning with the fiscal year which ends June 30, 1937. How large they shall be is not known in advance. The "amount sufficient as an annual premium" to provide for the required payments is
to be determined on a reserve basis in accordance with accepted actuarial principles, and based upon such tables of mortality as the Secretary of the Treasury shall from time to time adopt, and upon an interest rate of 3 percentum per annum compounded annually

Well that sounds like a trust fund doesn't it. Read closer as I thought the same first time I read it but that's not what it's saying. It does create a "reserve account" which is funded on an annual basis with enough reserve to cover all outgoing payments fir that budget year. Question my conclusion? OK but I'll use the other infamous SCOTUS case of the same year challenging Social Security to back up my conclusion. In Steward Machine v. Davis (301 US 548) the opinion of the court said this:

The proceeds of the excise when collected are paid into the Treasury at Washington, and thereafter are subject to appropriation like public moneys generally.

If Social Security was a true trust fund if you will and all payments came from that trust fund, why would the trust fund need external funding to meet it's annual obligations? Isn't the money already there? If it is, then why like clockwork does the hyperbolic claim that certain congressional interests want to cut Social Security during ever budget cycle? How can you cut funding of a trust fund already there and funded unless the truth is that there is no trust fund, never was and the "reserve account" spoken of in Helvering is in fact nothing more than a line item of the federal budget which has to be funded in accordance as the court spoke of in Helvering. These IOU's everyone speaks of are nothing more than euphemistic bullschitt used to bury the truth, there is no damn trust fund because the court said you can't have one and it be legal under current law (see Alton Railroad and then see the govt's own arguments in Steward and Helvering).

Now one other little item that throws into this mix is that in 1933' the US became a party to an International Labor Organization by treaty and among it's issues advocated was a system of social security. It's hard to say if treaty law played a part in social security but the fact that the UN Charter's Declaration for Human Rights in Article 22 makes the following declaration:

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international cooperation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

IMO treaty law makes any constitution claims moot as treaty law trumps all other laws including the constitution itself. US Constitution, Article VI Clause 2

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

The truth is, social security is nothing more than a pure con job on the same level as the monopolistic company store of the old fascist mill town variety. Load your 16 tons and never get ahead. The bosses via the State rent seek AGAIN our working and even have our union puppet leaders in on the take and get us to pay in to this illusionary trust fund. Oh, you say because the bosses get taxed too that my conspiracy theory about them don't hold water? Whose work and sweat in the first place created that money on which they paid their part of this excise tax? You think that's their end paying that tax? Corporations don't and never will pay any tax as they all are passed on to either those who labor for them or those who buy their services and products. Go ahead and scream to tax the corporations more and that "fair share" you want will be stripped out of your arse either on payday or shopping day. The solution is to kill the friend'ing Leviathan that feeds the whole con game to begin with.

Now our money goes into the general treasury and they are free to use this money under corp. welfare for their own ends. In the meantime, they want us to work harder and from our annual sweat they fund the whole thing and we're all to damn stupid worrying about whether the NFL or NBA season will start on time. Could social security work on some mutual or collective basis? Yeah, I'd have to concede that it could but for this to work it would require a huge amount of real transparency and openness. You'd have to then work to change the structure of the constitution that caused SCOTUS to rule as it did in Alton Railroad. This would then allow a true trust fund to be set aside in a total hands off fashion and any IOU's if you will would instead be real loans with repayment schedules and an interest schedule to boot but the important part, it would all be transparent.

This "hands off trust fund" does give a type social security system a real chance to work as it was intended and in the simplistic approach to a possible workable solution IMO lay the basis of my claims that a more nefarious intent was at play with social security upon it's founding. When SCOTUS in Alton told them why it won't work, then if a benevolent system was the point, then why was the most obvious solution to achieve that completely avoided eg change the law?

TOS, your statism may indeed be noble and of the best intentions but where you guys always fail is that you still let the friend'ing fox guard the damn hen house and until you guys jettison that bullschitt, you are nothing more than their puppet and you noble intentions get smashed on the rocks of reality by the very scumbags you trust!

wolakota Bro!

 

[Babagounj]

wkmac, lovely post, but tos will ignore it since it contains facts.
And we all know that anyone who has drunk the dem's supplied kool-aid no longer has any logical thought processes left .

 

[wkmac]

wkmac, lovely post, but tos will ignore it since it contains facts.
And we all know that anyone who has drunk the dem's supplied kool-aid no longer has any logical thought processes left .

I disagree, that TOS will totally reject what I said out of some kool-aid drinking. He may disagree with my idea of an ultimate solution to it all and that's cool but I'd not be to quick to make a judgement of some of the rest.

BTW: Thanks for the kind words on the post content itself. If we would start using stuff like this to beat the grass, I've no doubt we'd startle some snakes. I've done it myself more than once!

 

[diesel96]

Last I checked Florida will be better off without it. Sure the feds are going to dump some money into it to get the project built, but like all high speed rail lines in this country its going to lose money hand over fist and the state of Florida would be required to pick up the tab. Kudos to you having legislators who are smart enough to keep the financial interests of the people in mind.

I'll second wkmac in welcoming you back. Its been awhile since I have seen you post around here. How are you liking your new governor and U.S. senator?

Thx for the welcome...Let me put it this way, if the Upstate NY's Democrats victory, is any indication, then Republicans realize they're on the chopping block next election cycle ...that does not bold well for Fla's, Wisc's, Ohio's, and Mich's Governers as well...

 

[raceanoncr]

I see you missed the point.

Let me simplify it for you. You mentioned 1 person "stealing" from the system as if that ONE person was killing the system, and yet, you fail to realize the microscopic effect of this ONE person on the system versus the larger thefts by past presidents.

The republicans would have your focal point on this one person in order to distract you from the real theives of social security.

You gave me plenty to work with, unfortunately, time is on your side. I chose this ONE issue to start with. I will disect the remainder of your post in time.

Hope this helps your understanding.

Peace.

OK, my friend, I missed the point? Your point? Did I mention that this ONE person was killing the system? I fail to realize the microsopic effect of this ONE person vs the larger thefts by past presidents? Who said?

Did I say the Reps have my focal point on this ONE person to distract me from the real thieves of social security? Where did I say anything about Dems and Reps?

I talked about accountablity. I said if I was the boss NOW, some heads would fly. Is there? "Oh, there's channels to go thru and it takes time". BULLS***!

I talked about my house floating away thanks to the ARMY Corps of Engineers total lack of concern and common sense. ACCOUNTABILITY NOW! Who's gonna get fired over this?

Listen, if you don't take off your Democrat welding goggles that block out everything except Republican misdeeds, I'm done with this conversation. I want answers to my problems and I want em NOW and ain't getting em! PERIOD!

I don't care about Dems and Reps or Tea Bag or Ind or any political party. I think they're all a bunch of children and morons! Yes, I'm registered so don't go off on that.

You, TOS, don't seem to stay focused very long and I can't deal with that. I don't know if it's meds or what but I don't want to stray into some political sparring match just because you don't like a party. Again, I DON'T CARE ABOUT THESE MINDLESS LITTLE WHINEY SNIPS on Capitol Hill. Talk about self-serving! HA!

Dems? Oh, yeah, we've got some GREAT examples of leadship. Reps, same thing! Roles models all!

Explain to me, TOS, why I got drafted against my will in '67 and have been plagued with memories that will never be spoken or written down til the day I die then in '74, we say, "Oh, nevermind. Have a good life. Good-bye".

Speaking of that, "Good-bye". I'm done.

 

[brett636]

Thx for the welcome...Let me put it this way, if the Upstate NY's Democrats victory, is any indication, then Republicans realize they're on the chopping block next election cycle ...that does not bold well for Fla's, Wisc's, Ohio's, and Mich's Governers as well...

All i can say is you keep your fingers and toes crossed that this may be true, but i wouldn't be betting on it just yet. The only encouraging bit of information I have for you is that after 2012 you won't have do worry about Marco Rubio being your state's senator. I would almost bet money that he is at the top of every republican presidential candidate's list for vice president. Putting Florida solidly in the R column for president and securing the hispanic vote only makes Obummer's re-election campaign nearly a lost cause already.

 

[wkmac]

A year or so ago, The American Conservative magazine's parent company created a conservative think-tank dedicated to transportation issues looking as various means of mass and public transportation from all facets of the paleo-conservative POV. The organization is called Center for Public Transportation and these folks have come at mass and public transportation with a different view from the typical assumed conservative position.

Recently, William Lind wrote a piece about the actual cost of the automobile and then compared those cost impacts not only from it's micro economic perspective but it's macro as well and then comparing the economics of it to make a larger point about rethinking mass and public transit. Well before anyone screams socialism about mass transit, before the automakes, oil, rubber and other interests manipulated the marketplace to drive up auto sales and thus butter their own biscuits (using public butter), many of our city and town's mass transit systems were privately owned and yet served a greater public good. It also should be pointed out that if you want to cry socialism, think of all the massive public costs involved and needed in order for any or us to go out and get into our cars to drive down the road. On pure economics, the case might be made that the car is not the best allocation of resources and that some manner of mass transit (yes, even the privately owned kind) is in fact that best allocation. And BTW I also believe "ALL" roads should be privately built and owned too so consider that point as you read this post.

Bill Lind also a little over a month ago spoke in Atlanta to the Sustainable Atlanta Roundtable and he makes a very preliminary case from a paleo-conservative POV for rail and street car mass transit. In respect to Obama and rail, there is much about this President I don't like. But being the state as it is per the vast majority of people will for the most part stay the same, Obama's self interest in using rail and mass transit as a shovel ready project deserves questioning but in the larger picture, he may actually be right!

 

[moreluck]

People can agree on it, people can build it, but in CA. at least it won't be a "Field of Dreams"....they won't ride it. If it's gov't owned & operated, well you know how that goes. If it's privately owned & operated.....who can stay in business operating at a loss each month? JMO

 

[The Other Side]

In california we have one huge problem with our methods of travel. Growth of our population.

Our freeways are parking lots, our airports overcrowded and our rail system ineffective. Every year, more cars hit the roads in our state and further clog our highways. Every morning, millions of cars get on the road and just 1 accident can mean driving two hours to work or 45 mins.

Add this to the daily traveler who travels up and down the state in a car.

The state has a plan to eleviate some of this congestion of automobiles by offering another mode of transportation up and down the state. Removing cars from the road saves billions of dollars.

Changing peoples mindsets about travel has to start somewhere, and building this rail system now will be alot cheaper than building it 10 years from now. It would have been alot cheaper if it was built 10 years ago when it was originally suggested.

High speed rail travel is the future like it or not. Someday, oil will run out. What will you do then?

Peace.

 

[moreluck]

I forgot to mention the suicides........happens often.....a guy steps in front of the train.....the train is stopped and the investigation takes hours and the train sits. Nobody wants to be hours late for work!

My neighbors loaded their bikes on the train....went south to ride them in LaJolla. They caught the train back. A person was hit on the tracks and they were 3 hours late getting home......it happens.

With CA. making itself "company unfriendly", ten years from now, the cars might even be less.............who really knows? No-taxes Texas will probablygrow like crazy!!

 

[The Other Side]

I forgot to mention the suicides........happens often.....a guy steps in front of the train.....the train is stopped and the investigation takes hours and the train sits. Nobody wants to be hours late for work!

My neighbors loaded their bikes on the train....went south to ride them in LaJolla. They caught the train back. A person was hit on the tracks and they were 3 hours late getting home......it happens.

HIgh speed rail is elevated. Thanks for playing.

Peace.

 

[moreluck]

HIgh speed rail is elevated. Thanks for playing.

Peace.

Oh, and "taggers" never reach high overpasses? If someone is determined, they'll do it. You are not the book of knowledge.

 

[trplnkl]

With CA. making itself "company unfriendly", ten years from now, the cars might even be less.............who really knows? No-taxes Texas will probablygrow like crazy!!

We'll welcome the businesses with open arms, we already have enough population thank you very much.

 

[Babagounj]

Example of Gov't travel improvement: Boston's the Big Dig. Original cost $2B, actual cost $14B and still climbing to fix all the unforeseen "new" problems. Was intended to replace an elevated roadway with a tunnel roadway, a better plan The Boston BY-Pass was rejected since it was cheaper and could be completed sooner .

 

[toonertoo]

High speed rail is NOT necessarily elevated.&nbsp; When proposed in OHIO, our former giovernor, Strickland, was happy as heck.&nbsp; Oh what a great thing, blah blah.&nbsp; Our new governor nixxed it.&nbsp; Our High speed rail would use existing tracks, and would go 39mph.&nbsp; Now there is some high speed.&nbsp; Ill drive to cinncinnati and BACK, by the time you get there.&nbsp; He gave the money back, thinking it would go back to some badly needed area, and it just got doled out to others who wanted it.&nbsp; <BR>
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/stat...ov-elect-john-kasich-rejects-passenger-train/

 

[The Other Side]

High speed rail is NOT necessarily elevated.&nbsp; When proposed in OHIO, our former giovernor, Strickland, was happy as heck.&nbsp; Oh what a great thing, blah blah.&nbsp; Our new governor nixxed it.&nbsp; Our High speed rail would use existing tracks, and would go 39mph.&nbsp; Now there is some high speed.&nbsp; Ill drive to cinncinnati and BACK, by the time you get there.&nbsp; He gave the money back, thinking it would go back to some badly needed area, and it just got doled out to others who wanted it.&nbsp; <BR>
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/stat...ov-elect-john-kasich-rejects-passenger-train/

NObody is talking about retrofitting existing tracks tooner. High speed rail trains need to have a clear path without interuptions. Taking a train that does 200 mph and placing it on rails that travel through residential neighborhoods would be foolish.

Think outside the box please, and not in the container that opposition talking heads would keep you in.

Peace.

 

[brett636]

NObody is talking about retrofitting existing tracks tooner. High speed rail trains need to have a clear path without interuptions. Taking a train that does 200 mph and placing it on rails that travel through residential neighborhoods would be foolish.

Think outside the box please, and not in the container that opposition talking heads would keep you in.

Peace.

If CA were smart about it they would go ahead and pay to have this high speed rail line built across the state, through AZ, and into TX. This move will help ensure increased ridership from all the Californians who leave the state simply so that they can find a job.