If Pilots strike and drivers go too, Are the UPS Stores expected to as well?

[proups]

ok2 is right. We can't afford another strike.

The pilots can't strike - they have to go through mediation, and if that fails, the President can order them to work until an agreement is reached. What do you think "W" would tell those well paid jet jockeys?

 

[maxwell]

I want to address some misinformation on this forum about UPS pilots and their negotiations with the company. First of all, a UPS pilot doesn't work "40 hours a month." They are actually paid for 80 hours a month but must work almost 4 times that many hours to be paid for it. In other words. they get 1 hour of pay for every 3 hours and 45 minutes of work or time away from base. With the current staffing level, that means that most UPS pilots are going to be away from home 1/2 of their life. Secondly, UPS pilots are NOT the highest paid in the industry. FedEx and Airborne, as examples, both have higher pay scales than UPS does. UPS does, however, have the highest paid truck drivers and aircraft mechanics in the United States. The pilots are NOT asking to be the highest paid, only to recieve an equitable compensation and retirement package. The important issues are scheduling and scope. Scheduling work-rules are critical for safety and long-term health. You feeder-drivers know that as well as anyone. Pilots are forced to retire at age 60. All the money in the world will not make any difference if your health is shot by the time you retire due to flip-flopping schedules and 30 years of sleep deprivation. Scope deals with protecting jobs. Is this a legitimate issue for a labor-group to try and control? I suggest that it is to some degree. I want UPS to be profitable and competitive, but not at the expense of it's most valuable resource, people. As a UPS pilot, I cannot compete with a Chinese pilot on wages alone. Just as you can't compete with Mexican, Indian, or Chinese workers on the basis of wages alone. I believe we have something to offer that is worth more than the sum of our payrole, and which foreign subcontracted workers will never provide. Loyalty, innovation, self-motivation, pride, productivity, intelligence. UPS pilots are not asking for "pie-in-the-sky". We are asking for what is fair compensation and schedules in our industry. One last thing. UPS pilots cannot be replaced overnight as some have suggested. Even though a 757 pilot at Delta can fly a 757 at UPS, the FAA requires that each crewmember at a new carrier go through an intensive training program regardless of previous experience. This would take several months to accomplish at best. Billions of dollars would be lost. UPS pilots are asking for the same support we have given to the mechanics and drivers. As I recall, we never questioned your contract issues or compensation amounts. We only want what is fair and to see UPS be the BEST, worldwide, kicking everyone elses butt.

 

[wondering]

Finally a post worth reading. It's nice to get the facts. Thanks Max

 

[speeddemon]

so tell me Maxwell, what constitutes "work" for a pilot?

 

[moreluck]

work? What constitutes a paragraph? Tough to read!!

 

[rushfan]

Maxwell:
It's a well known fact UPS pilot schedules are the worst in the industry. I regularly hear it from some non UPS pilots who live on my delivery route.

Our gateway is small, so I have the opportunity to bs with some UPS pilots (those who are willing to give me the time). One told me of the time he had to fly from ONT,SLC, end at Boise, Idaho.
From Boise, he jumped another carrier to MCO (mind you there isn't a direct flight from Boise ID to Orlando FL). From MCO he ended at SDF, catching sleep whenever possible. He lives in So. Cal. This was all accomplished in 2 days.

Now I don't know the exact details of what UPS pilots get paid, and it's not my duty to judge what is too much. Judging from what I've been told, your schedule is horrible.

I'm not for a strike. It would be a big mistake. Hopefully things will get worked out.



(Message edited by rushfan on May 17, 2005)

 

[ezrider]

Maxwell

Very well stated. As a driver earning the highest wage among his peers at competing carriers, I certainly realize that without the revenue stream generated by the successful air operation, the liklihood of me (and every other driver, whether they realize it or not) sustaining that level would be all but impossible. I can only guess that much of what you have had to endure reading on this board has to be frustrating after working three years without a contract. We work for a company that largely revolves around separated workforces due to the operation's 24/7 timeline and I think that collective lack of insight may have contributed to some rather rash and ill-advised snap judgements pertaining to your plight.

What do you think needs to happen in order to break the stalemate in negotiations? Bob Miller seemed like a reasonable person from my very distant view. Does Nicholson have all of you behind him? Has the Railway Act been used as a pawn to undermine pilots during talks to keep this dispute at what seems like a never-ending impasse? I know I'm limited in what I can do to help by the law, but I'm not apathetic by any means. What needs to happen from here and is there any way we can help?

And by the way - If anything, I can empathize. The way things have been going behind the wheel, I don't think Atlanta listens to the drivers either.

 

[ironylife]

everybody says ups drivers overpaid, people fedex drivers can make 22 bucks an hour, its only 3 dollars difference. fedex ramp employees make as much or more than our hub folks. 8.50 an hour to start is pitiful. ups could save so much money on turnover if they just paid the hub folks a few dollars more an hour. Everybody knows this but nothing is done about it. If we were making 50 bucks an hour, and the competion 20 dollars...then go ahead and gripe. We dont make that much more than other people out there.

 

[trickpony1]

Maxwell,
Before your post, I was led to believe that company pilots had a cushy job that allowed for a life of leisure and bliss.

As a feeder driver I know what it is like to flip-flop days then nights then mornings then evenings. It is hard on a body and a marriage. I imagine the people in Atlanta as well as most pkg drivers are on a set schedule that allows their bodies, and their life, to expect certain things at certain times....such as sleep.

They may not understand a job entailing a 2 day foray, as you have described, across the nation covering the 24/7 timeline, with little/no sleep and, on top of that, not getting paid for some segments.

I would like to think the company would rid themselves of the "love it or leave it" mentality the so permeates it's culture and utilize it's "greatest asset" (people) to a mutually beneficial end.

Thanks for making us aware of your situation.

Scheduling seems to be the biggest issue among pilots and I hope the company can see their way clear to make adjustments that are reasonable and responsible.

Godspeed.

 

[markbell]

One last thing. UPS pilots cannot be replaced overnight as some have suggested. Even though a 757 pilot at Delta can fly a 757 at UPS, the FAA requires that each crewmember at a new carrier go through an intensive training program regardless of previous experience. This would take several months to accomplish at best. Billions of dollars would be lost.

Nobody said you could be replaced overnight. You can certainly be replaced and the rest can be contracted.

The savings over eight years or so including savings associated with flying fewer planes, less fuel, fewer mechanics, and fewer drivers would more than pay for replacing you.

And no, you dont work close to 40 hours. Closer to 20 than 40. Being paid 80 is probably pretty accurate. Sorry, being away from home doesnt constitute work.

Youre overcompensated for what you do already. I could staff an air operation for ~0.66 of your current compensation. Extending your current contract wouldnt be acceptable to me.

Furthermore, the IPA has gone out of its way to be surly and combative several times now. I think you overestimate your value and importance. Putting you on the street unemployed and unemployable is more important to me than reaching an agreement or a disruption in service or shutting the entire company down, if it comes to that.

 

[trickpony1]

It has been a while since this board was struck with an acute episode of flatulence of the mouth. We figured it was about time for one.
Thank you Mark

(Message edited by trickpony1 on May 18, 2005)

 

[ups79]

maxwell:sorry to hear you have to retire by age 60. As a delivery driver most of us retire at 50 because are bodies can't go to 60.

 

[ok2bclever]

No, you are almost one of a kind ups79 I don't know any other drivers that could afford to retire at 50 but you Chicago guys.

Thanks Max,

Nice to get the perspective of someone actually involved rather than the inanities of the ignorant.

As someone who has heard "overpaid drivers who drive around in the sun all day" it gripes me to hear some of our own mouth the same type of stupidity about someone else's job that they don't know diddly about.

I do think your leverage is very weak.

As there are tons of qualified pilots out there, either unemployed or working for less for troubled companies that would leap at the chance to be stressed out by UPS.

Good Luck though.

 

[deliver_man]

I see that "markbell", the part-time carwash supervisor from bunghole, mississippi, has chimed in with another brilliant post, no doubt typed on the computer in his parent's basement. What a maroon.

 

[ups79]

ok2b:I guess that means it is ok2bclever. Hell we had some say the heck with the insurance and retired when they were 46.

 

[ok2bclever]

Sheesh! Your retirement is even better than I thought!

In my next life I'm coming back in 710.

 

[speeddemon]

retire at 50??? We have to go until at least 62.