Iraq

[moreluck]

Maybe someone would want to check this out....see if it's true. I already checked Snopes. . . . .

Can Muslims be Good Americans?

Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

Consider this:

Theologically, no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of
Arabia.

Scripturally, no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and
the Quran (Koran).

Geographically, no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in
prayer five times a day.

Socially, no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends
with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders),
who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great
Satan.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and
scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Religiously, no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except
Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since
it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow
freedom of religion and expression.

Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either
dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no, because when we declare "one nation under God," the
Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as our
heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent
names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very
suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both
good Muslims and good Americans.

 

[Slothrop]

Maybe someone would want to check this out....see if it's true. I already checked Snopes. . . . .

Of course it's not true. Try "Googling' "Can Muslims be Good Americans" and go to the first link.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Can+Muslims+be+Good+Americans&btnG=Google+Search

 

[DS]

Canada Afghanistan update...NATO wants us to take over when Bush pulls out troops.

 

[Slothrop]

Welcome to our world.

 

[wkmac]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/sabrin4.html

 

[susiedriver]

mac,

Are you not a good American? From the article:

The greatest threats to our liberties have not been Saddam Hussein, is not now Osama Bin Laden (if he is still alive) or even the Chinese and North Korean Communists. The threat to our liberties is much closer to home, and all have easily pronounceable names. Their names are George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, Bill Frist, Dennis Hastert, Nancy Pelosi, John McCain, and Hillary Clinton; in short, America's ruling political elite.

Sounds like treason.

 

[wonderboy]

this place might be worth a little more my extremely valuable time
if Susie will continue to shine an exposing light on the agenda of the neocons
and their ditto head followers

 

[Jones]

this place might be worth a little more my extremely valuable time
if Susie will continue to shine an exposing light on the agenda of the neocons
and their ditto head followers

Perhaps it might be worth a little more of your extremely valuable time if you took the time to register and posted something substantive about the issues you find interesting/important?

At the end of the day a message board is just a conversation. Only you can make it worth your time, generally by participating.

 

[wkmac]

this place might be worth a little more my extremely valuable time
if Susie will continue to shine an exposing light on the agenda of the neocons
and their ditto head followers

Ah wonderboy, just what is the Neocon agenda? Oh certainly there is one but if you only look at the events under the current adminstration you will only glimpse a speck of it's true size and scope.

Might I make a suggestion. As a starting point that relates to the American Empire as we see it today, the best starting point IMO is with John Winthrop and his "City Upon a Hill" sermon in 1630'. This is the primordial soup from which Manifest Destiny sprang forth which gave birth to the Wilsonianism from which the principles of globalization via democracy has arisen in our modern times. From this vehicle came the vast expansion of federal powers that super accelerated during the FDR years and further increased during the Great Society years under Johnson. With Nixon came the ideas of going more global via detent and in this timeframe we have the former Trotskyite, who also in 1983' proclaimed how proud he was to has been a member of the Fourth International in 1940'. For those unfamilar with this term you might research Leon Trotsky to discover that answer. This former Trotskyite is named Irving Kritol and is called the father of modern NeoConservatism. For those unfamilar with Mr. Kristol he published an article in his son's publication a few years back on this issue so the publication should be a hint as to who the son is.

Also check out the following letter to then President Clinton and the names of the folks who signed it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061114195451/http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

more letters to read:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131010230936/http://www.newamericancentury.org/lettersstatements.htm

As the 1970's came to a close, American conservatives were awakened in the political arena and thus ushered in the Reagan presidency. Reagan prior to election spoke of many conservative ideals such as gold backed currency, the end to fractional reserve banking and the reeling in of the Federal Reserve monetary powers as well as a strenghtening of military might but coupled with a type of renewed isolationism to not be entangled in foreign adventures. A return to the principle of "Don't Thread On Me" as I "Won't Thread On You" was music to many ears. With this, a promise to severly cut the size and scope of gov't as well as an end to the system of taxation this country had endured since the Wilson adminstration. It didn't take long for those willing to look to see that this whole effort had in fact been hijacked by the likes of early neocons like Jeanne Kirpatrick and Elliot Abrams for just a couple of examples. Many conservatives walked away and either said the hell with politics all together or engaged themselves into various 3rd party and other alternative means of expressing political ideals and beliefs. Some became hopeful again with the so-called Republican Revolution of 1994' but the door of reality was slammed shut when from the well Newt Gingrich praised FDR as an great savior when in fact if one is honest with the course from which he governed, at the least he was an out and out fascist in the strict meaning of the term of privately owned/so-called publically controlled. The Corp. run State of the Mussolini ideal.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/fdr-toc.html

There is also a benevolent model democratic fascism and a manevolent model democratic fascism and we error in never seeing the benevolent type.

The hard realities is that FDR among other American leaders stretched the principles of limited gov't so far that they broke in such a way as to setup the course of our gov't that we see today. Unlimited sex without a condom or any consideration of birth control will in time lead to 2 inevitable truths. The first is you will contract some type of disease that at best makes you very sick and that leaves longterm scars and even a shorter total lifespan or it could even kill you outright near the outset. The 2nd truth is offspring that you either never planned for or considered having to provide for or in many cases offspring that quite frankly is undesirable and actually harmful to your larger family unit that you in fact did have willingly and planned for.

In otherwords, think of the Neocons, Bush, Osama, Saddam, North Korea, global terrorism, high fuel prices, Hitler, ColdWar and International Communism, democrats, republicans, American Empire, nation building, etc. etc. as all offspring of FDR, Wilson, Manifest Destiny and finally the "City Upon a Hill"!

Oh sure, it's not that simple of a straight line as you could throw in many, many other factors of our history with much of that as the trunkline and the above mentioned American players as branches but in reality those above are as much a trunkline to us as one day Bush will take his place in the Trunkline too. Now you'd error if you thought that it was Bush alone as the fact is that Cheney is to Bush what Edward Mandel House was to Woodrow Wilson. Learn House and you will learn Cheney!

The problem with today and it's politics it that the so-called opposition from the other side of the isle are only opposed because it is not they who are calling the shots. If you take both sides and boil down to the core principles of just what is gov't and what is it's function you will see that both percieve it in the exact same way. Neoconservatism is nothing but a symptom of the disease. Look closer at the concepts of "planned societies" via centralized gov't models and thus you will begin to see a much different picture.

Good luck if you have the courage to go back 100's of years and come back forward. Also learn the European royal houses and specifically the ill will that old western European empires hold towards the Eastern power of old Russia and it's society and culture. There's lots more there than you think. Also understand the nature of our situation with the old British empire. The Anglo Empire hasn't died at all, it just moved it's corp. offices from "The City" to a new "The City"!

c ya wonderboy!

 

[Jones]

mac,

You're a certified conspiracy theorist . There's nothing inherently wrong with that though, it's almost a natural by-product of trying to make sense of our convoluted history, and if it inspires you to think outside the box, so much the better.

I disagree with a lot of the cause and effect that you posited, I've always felt that randomness and chaos play a far greater role in the human experience than most people are comfortable with, hence the constant search for patterns (it's the neo-cons!)that will help explain what's going on.

But I also recognize that our disagreement is just not all that important, and we could both be wrong anyway.

 

[wkmac]

Jones,
Conspiracy would require some element of secrecy which I don't believe is the case at all. It's more of an idealism, not unlike a religion that drives these folks. Conspiracy would also suggest that you would tend to get things right on a more constant basis. In our case I don't believe this is so because gov't is always telling us that they are out to solve this problem and that problem but in fact the opposite is true and the problem grows only worse. In order to maintain the element of control to convince the masses to remain gov't confident, they must ever increase the size and scope of the bureaucracy in efforts to control the problem as well as convince you and your neighbors that the problem is much to big for you to handle. Had they left the problem with you in the first place at the very least the problem would have likely been about the same size today but now as a result of gov't manipulation the problem has taken on proportions many times it's size.

As to us both being wrong, we are! We are absolutely, completely and without any doubt wrong. We have no ability to lead nor make decisions for ourselves, our families and those that we live and work with on a daily basis. Fear Not However! I'm sure either the neo-cons or some other political type of a different flavor will be there to save us from our folly!

 

[tieguy]

ah at least wonderboy used the approved labels of dittohead and neocon and did not use the dissallowed words liberal or communist. This makes his a quality post no doubt.

 

[Jones]

ah at least wonderboy used the approved labels of dittohead and neocon and did not use the dissallowed words liberal or communist. This makes his a quality post no doubt.

I think labels in general are problematic, assuming that what you want is real discourse, because more often than not they serve only as an excuse (and a poor one, imho) to ignore what someone else is saying and turn every discussion into a "last word" contest to determine who wins, rather than find the truth. Or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof.

The irony is that most labels are self applied. It was Limbaugh's own loyal listeners who coined the term dittoheads for themselves, and there are plenty of people who call themselves liberals. I'm not sure who came up with neoconservatives, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it was initially a form of self identification.

As a country I think we would be much better off if we just ditched all these labels and called ourselves Americans, and then we could all focus on finding the real truth and applying the solutions that would best benefit all of us. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though .

 

[wkmac]

I'm not sure who came up with neoconservatives, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it was initially a form of self identification.

The term actually came from the father of the American NeoConservative movement, Irving Kristol. Now who came up with the term NeoCon I don't know that one.

 

[tonyexpress]

This should make the left feel a little better about themselves, they have company.

from The Wall Street Journal Editorial Page

BY JAMES TARANTO
Friday, July 21, 2006 2:08 p.m. EDT
The Angry Left's Newest Recruit
"It appears that Saddam Hussein may be inching toward the Democratic Presidential primary in 2008," writes a blogger called "The Influence Peddler." We're pretty sure TIP has his tongue planted in his cheek--Saddam strikes us as more of a third-party type of guy--but the erstwhile dictator is sounding an awful lot like a left-wing Democrat, as the New York Times reports:

Saddam Hussein's defense lawyers on Thursday released a letter Mr. Hussein recently wrote in prison that tries to convince the American people that the United States should leave Iraq because President Bush misled them into a deadly quagmire.

The 5,000-word letter is a rambling treatise outlining what Mr. Hussein asserts are the false reasons the Bush administration used to justify the war in Iraq, from illicit weapons to links with Al Qaeda. Mr. Hussein said he had written it at the behest of Ramsey Clark, the former United States attorney general who serves on his defense team.

Mr. Hussein blames Iran and pro-Israel interests for helping lead the Americans into war. He invokes the specter of the Vietnam War . . .

Ramsey Clark, the man with the behest, actually is a Democrat, or was: He served as Lyndon Johnson's attorney general (1967-69) and was the 1974 Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate seat now held by Chuck Schumer

Advocates of U.S. withdrawal, meanwhile, can find some cheer in this report from London's Daily Telegraph:

The people of Iceland are about to join one of the world's smallest clubs--those nations without armed forces on their territory to defend their borders.

The United States, which had assured Iceland's defence for decades, stunned the country in March when it announced that it would be closing its bases on the island, withdrawing its friend-15 fighters and thousands of servicemen in the space of just six months. . . .

The United States is still legally pledged to defend Iceland from attack, but it now insists that it can do this from a distance.

This is the John Murtha strategy for Iraq. And the moment Iraq is as stable and peaceful as Iceland is today, we'll gladly join the call.

A dagger of the mind, a false creation, proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain.​

 

[tieguy]

half of those polled still think Iraq had WMD's . Of course media experts are astonished and think those polled are delusional.

Half of U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD - Yahoo! News

 

[Jones]

half of those polled still think Iraq had WMD's . Of course media experts are astonished and think those polled are delusional.

Half of U.S. still believes Iraq had WMD - Yahoo! News

It's not all that surprising really. It's a very human trait to become emotionally invested in your beliefs and stop examining them critically. Heck, just look at all the people who believe in "crystal magic" or the healing power of magnets.

In the case of the WMD's in Iraq (or rather the distinct lack thereof), I get the impression that for a lot of people the real stumbling block is not admitting that they were wrong, or at the very least badly misled, it's admitting that the people on the other side of the political spectrum might be right about something. It's a symptom of how great the political divide has become in this country more than anything else.

 

[wkmac]

It's not all that surprising really. It's a very human trait to become emotionally invested in your beliefs and stop examining them critically. Heck, just look at all the people who believe in "crystal magic" or the healing power of magnets.

In the case of the WMD's in Iraq (or rather the distinct lack thereof), I get the impression that for a lot of people the real stumbling block is not admitting that they were wrong, or at the very least badly misled, it's admitting that the people on the other side of the political spectrum might be right about something. It's a symptom of how great the political divide has become in this country more than anything else.

Jones and Tie,
I think part of the problem especially with polls are the questions themselves. For example, if you asked my the following:

Does Iraq possess any WMD's? I would have to answer yes because that is a fact that they did possess WMD's. One problem arises that there is not a fast pat definition at the international law level of exactly what is WMD. The most accepted definition pertains to weapons that are of 3 classes. Nuclear, chemical, biological and yes certain weapons of the chemical/bio nature we in fact found. But let's define the question a little further to see what that answer may be.

Did Iraq possess useable, post 1991' WMD's? So far to my knowledge the answer to that question if asked of me would be No. Did Iraq possess useable WMD's? Again, to my knowledge the answer is No.

Personally I think the current adminstration is using a lawyers tactic of implied or suggestive guilt on the part of Iraq in hoping to convince the public that where's there's a little bit of smoke, there's also intent and therefore fire and the accused stands guilty. In other words, I found a marijuana seed in the car ash tray so the driver must be a transporter and dealer of large quantities of marijuana and maybe even cocaine. That's the logic here IMO. Now that could be true but the seed in the tray at best points more likely to a casual user instead.

Of the recent pre-91' weapons found you could question the efforts of the previous inspections and their effectiveness and you might even go so far as to even suggest that since these were intially missed, what else was missed and that's a very valid question. But right now we should be dealing with facts and not speculation and the facts IMO just plainly say there are no active, useable post 91' WMD's in Iraq.

In other words, we went to war on speculation not solid hardcase evidence and I believe the policy wonks who pushed this war know this and therefore are grasping as straws was the point to the delapidated, unuseable WMD's that were recently found and paraded as proof that WMD's exist. Frankly at the outset of the war I myself believed the likelihood of finding WMD was very high but here we are.

IMO, the only thing these polls proves is the effectiveness of the ad game to sell this idea and as Jones pointed out the divided political climate we live in today.

Just saw this article this morning in some Israeli news and thought I'd pass it own. It's an op-ed piece but notice the author's background at the bottom of the piece. I'm impressed.

Ending the neoconservative nightmare - Haaretz - Israel News

 

[Anonymous Susie]

mac,

I am locked out. Whether you want to believe it or not is irrelevant.

The question posed in the Yahoo survey was:

Did Saddam Hussein's government have weapons of mass destruction in 2003?

The correct answer is NO!

 

[moreluck]

Reminds me of the song from Little Anthony & the Imperials.....

I'm On The Outside (looking in)