LGBTQ

[El Correcto]

The Christians in Paul's day didn't have the power to free slaves. They had to work within the system until it could be changed. We've gone around in circles on this many times now. You hate Christianity. Got it.

Paul certainly had the power to order a Christian slave owner around.
That’s a ridiculous argument, Paul was an apostle, word of god type person. He tells a Christian to jump they say how high.

He chose to respect the rights of a slave owner and sent an appeal to him to free a slave he cared for.

 

[BrownFlush]

I just see being anti-lgbt and anti-slavery at the same time as paradoxical if you understand the Christian abolitionist stance on why slavery is wrong and how they overcame all the pro slavery rhetoric of scripture.

You could make those same arguments for lgbt civil rights and respecting lgbt people.
Ignoring big portions of the Bible as just a product of the day like you do with slavery and focusing on the loving messages of the Bible that are not divisive.

Like this one, that abolitionists used.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

You could make an argument for trans rights with the passages abolitionists used for slavery.

This is a 10 on the hilarious scale.

 

[vantexan]

Paul certainly had the power to order a Christian slave owner around.
That’s a ridiculous argument, Paul was an apostle, word of god type person. He tells a Christian to jump they say how high.

He chose to respect the rights of a slave owner and sent an appeal to him to free a slave he cared for.

There wasn't a hierarchy established at that point. Obviously you would respect an apostle but I think, based on his writings, he appealed to others to change their ways instead of ordering them.

 

[El Correcto]

There wasn't a hierarchy established at that point. Obviously you would respect an apostle but I think, based on his writings, he appealed to others to change their ways instead of ordering them.

There absolutely was a hierarchy.
Paul took part in the Jerusalem council where they wrote to the gentiles to not offend the Jewish Christians.

And why just the slave he cares about? The one he became close to? Why wasn’t Paul ranting about freeing all the slaves this wealthy Christian owned and accepting them as brothers like the one he grew close to?

It isn’t a condemnation of slavery at all, it is more like Paul helping out a friend with a slave debt and pulling strings for him.

 

[vantexan]

There absolutely was a hierarchy.
Paul took part in the Jerusalem council where they wrote to the gentiles to not offend the Jewish Christians.

And why just the slave he cares about? The one he became close to? Why wasn’t Paul ranting about freeing all the slaves this wealthy Christian owned and accepting them as brothers like the one he grew close to?

It isn’t a condemnation of slavery at all, it is more like Paul helping out a friend with a slave debt and pulling strings for him.

You don't get it. The Church was in its infancy. Paul said that we are in the world but not of the world. There was no changing the way the world worked. It was the accepted culture, how things were done. Rather than free the slaves the Christian masters were admonished to treat their Christian slaves as brothers in Christ. That was revolutionary at that time. And the first step towards ultimately no slavery.

 

[vantexan]

There absolutely was a hierarchy.
Paul took part in the Jerusalem council where they wrote to the gentiles to not offend the Jewish Christians.

And why just the slave he cares about? The one he became close to? Why wasn’t Paul ranting about freeing all the slaves this wealthy Christian owned and accepting them as brothers like the one he grew close to?

It isn’t a condemnation of slavery at all, it is more like Paul helping out a friend with a slave debt and pulling strings for him.

There were no popes, cardinals, bishops, priests. Each congregation had elders and deacons, independent of other congregations. The Apostles didn't order people, they taught. Very different world than what came about with the advent of the Catholic hierarchy.

 

[El Correcto]

There were no popes, cardinals, bishops, priests. Each congregation had elders and deacons, independent of other congregations. The Apostles didn't order people, they taught. Very different world than what came about with the advent of the Catholic hierarchy.

I don’t think you read the letter, Paul makes it clear he could order him to release the guy from slavery.

Why would Paul be saying he could simply command him? Is Paul lying or are you incorrect?

 

[bottomups]

Admitting to the resurrection.

 

[El Correcto]

There were no popes, cardinals, bishops, priests.

Also it’s thought that Paul was writing a letter to a slave owning bishop or at the very least a minister. Bishops track their lineage all the way back to the first church of Jerusalem.

He was a wealthy slave owner who also preached the word of god and is consider a saint. A slave owning saint.

 

[vantexan]

Also it’s thought that Paul was writing a letter to a slave owning bishop or at the very least a minister. Bishops track their lineage all the way back to the first church of Jerusalem.

He was a wealthy slave owner who also preached the word of god and is consider a saint. A slave owning saint.

Popes track back their lineage to Peter. But there was no hierarchy until about the 300's A.D.

 

[El Correcto]

Popes track back their lineage to Peter. But there was no hierarchy until about the 300's A.D.

So Paul is lying to the rich slave owning Christian minister(maybe bishops)?
He can’t command him to release the slave?

You clearly haven’t even read the letter.
There absolutely was hierarchy in the early Christian sect, you are dealing with people accepted as apostles of Christ and church leaders.

 

[El Correcto]

You don't get it. The Church was in its infancy. Paul said that we are in the world but not of the world. There was no changing the way the world worked. It was the accepted culture, how things were done. Rather than free the slaves the Christian masters were admonished to treat their Christian slaves as brothers in Christ. That was revolutionary at that time. And the first step towards ultimately no slavery.

I think you have a misunderstanding of who all was slaves back in the day. Slaves were not just made up of laborers and nobodies. You could be a distinguished influential person and still be a slave to a king or someone. There was good treatment of slaves back in the day, just not for lower class individuals.

Paul was writing a letter on behalf of his friend, not just a slave. He was not rallying against slavery in that letter, he was getting a friend’s back and pulling strings for him as an apostle.

 

[vantexan]

So Paul is lying to the rich slave owning Christian minister(maybe bishops)?
He can’t command him to release the slave?

You clearly haven’t even read the letter.
There absolutely was hierarchy in the early Christian sect, you are dealing with people accepted as apostles of Christ and church leaders.

As I've pointed out, in the early Church we had apostles and those the apostles imparted gifts, or powers, to. These men went around establishing congregations and preaching about Jesus. The congregations at the local level chose elders, who were qualified, and deacons. The elders saw to the churches spiritual needs as well as had oversight over the deacons who saw to the physical needs of the church such as looking after widows and orphans. There weren't even located ministers at that time. Evangelists worked in a given area and were supported by various congregations. There was no reporting to a central authority. The Apostle Paul would hear of something concerning and he would write to the congregation involved. But the power over a congregation lay with the chosen elders at that location. That was the extent of a hierarchy. Over time, centuries in the making, power in a congregation was controlled by one man. Eventually those men would choose one among them, a bishop, to oversee all of the congregations in a region. As Rome was the center of the empire and the Church numerically was very strong there, eventually the bishop of Rome was recognized as the earthly head of the Church. This was centuries in the making and was a major factor in the corruption that led to the schism between the Eastern and Western Churches and eventually the Reformation and rise of Protestanism. I know you want to look for flaws but I will just say the flawless church structure of the early Church was peopled with flawed humans. Wolves in sheep's clothing(and yes that expression comes from the Bible) took over as the Church became large and a lot of money started flowing through it. And Kings and Emporers saw it as a vehicle to control the masses and allied themselves with the Church. And yes terrible things have been done in the name of Jesus. But a lot of good has been done too. And those who use the Church to their own ends will be judged by God for it.

 

[vantexan]

I think you have a misunderstanding of who all was slaves back in the day. Slaves were not just made up of laborers and nobodies. You could be a distinguished influential person and still be a slave to a king or someone. There was good treatment of slaves back in the day, just not for lower class individuals.

Paul was writing a letter on behalf of his friend, not just a slave. He was not rallying against slavery in that letter, he was getting a friend’s back and pulling strings for him as an apostle.

If we're talking Roman Empire there were free born citizens and there were those who bought their freedom. But by and large slaves were conquered people who did all the labor. Did things like educate the nobles children too. The Romans didn't treat all the slaves like field hands. But they were extremely harsh on any hint of revolt or disrespect.

The Catholic Church actually codified the treatment of slaves. In the state of Chiapas in Mexico there's a nice small city called San Cristobal de las Casas. The de las Casas part comes from a Catholic Bishop who is revered locally because of his efforts to protect the local native population from the conquistadors who were very hard on the people. All through the Spanish Empire Native Americans were treated very harshly. The biggest silver mine ever found, Potosi in Boluvia, had over 6 million men die working the mine. Mostly Natives but some imported African slaves also. It was a harsh, brutal world with very often the only protections were the Dominican and Jesuit priests who admonished the authorities to treat the Natives better.

I know you want to lay everything wrong in the world at the feet of Christians, but all through history since the beginning of the Church there are examples of Christians trying to make the world a better place. As well as those who used the Church to their own ends. Like anything human there was good and bad.

 

[rod]

From what I know of have heard of the Bible has an out for everything. Kind of like a Teamster Contract. That Catholic "confess you sins and you are forgiven" and get to start with a clean slate is the best one of them all.

 

[vantexan]

From what I know of have heard of the Bible has an out for everything. Kind of like a Teamster Contract. That Catholic "confess you sins and you are forgiven" and get to start with a clean slate is the best one of them all.

Doesn't work quite that way in the Bible.

 

[BrownFlush]

 

[bottomups]

 

[El Correcto]

Apostle Paul would hear of something concerning and he would write to the congregation involved. But the power over a congregation lay with the chosen elders at that location.

You seriously need to quit filibustering me with walls of text just because you don’t want to admit you’re wrong and have no backing in the Bible for your view.
“Therefore, although I am confident that in Christ I have the right to command you to do your duty”
He is literally the word of god I don’t get why you think he can’t command a Christian.

 

[El Correcto]

From what I understand from my Bible studies today is that messiah=Christ, just a Greek translation. Jesus was originally claiming to be an anointed one and descendant of David fulfilling god’s promise to have a Jewish king on the throne(son of man). Jesus promised his twelve apostles seats ruling below him in this new kingdom or Jewish homeland over the twelve tribes of Israel.
One of these seats would have included Judas, so we know he wasn’t correct about that. He also ended up executed by the Romans for claiming to be a Jewish king in the making, they never did take kindly to that kind of rhetoric.

“Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

After his execution came a bit of the melt down for all the Jews that followed him, they did not see themselves as practicing a new religion, they saw themselves as following their next king David figure and adding to their own holy scriptures of Judaism, Jesus fulfilling God’s promise to the Jewish people.

That’s where Paul steps in and redefines the kingdom they are being promised and redefines messiah/christ.

“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called,both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of Godand the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holinessand redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.


Paul stepped in and really laid the ground work for Christianity flourish without the messiah around still. Spread it to the gentiles and turned it into much more of a doomsday cult, a final reckoning from god.