LGBTQ

[vantexan]

What led to the real rise of the west was a rejection of what christianity teaches as truth. They found much better ways to arrive at truth than fairytales.

What was fueling the Christian abolitionists? Was it the pro slavery writings of the Bible? Was it the pro slavery teachings of their “god”?
No it was the enlightenment that spurred revolutions, it was the scientific revolution that led to industrialization.
These are so much more important for humanity and human rights than any pro slavery fairytale.

And don’t get wrong I’m not trying to romanticize the Romans as strictly better.
I’m not blaming Christians for the fall of Rome as if it is all their fault, I mainly do that just to goad you because it was a contributing factor, unlike homosexuality which you people routinely used to insult me with “homos caused Rome to fall”.

In some ways the fall of Rome helped Europe, but you shouldn’t view the period of time when people were focused on superstitions and knowing the world through religion as some great step forward, in some ways it was a huge step backwards.

I never said that homosexuals caused the fall of Rome. I have said that open homosexual behavior is an indicator of the moral decadence that has preceded the fall of many empires, including Rome. And you may not realize it but the United States was very much a Christian nation until about the 60's. As is always the case, it got wealthy, then morally decadent, and appears to be heading towards the same fate of all great civilizations. Difference is modern communications and the widespread use of drugs is doing it to us at a much faster pace. That and the misguided if not downright evil people who are spurring our demise.

 

[vantexan]

What led to the real rise of the west was a rejection of what christianity teaches as truth. They found much better ways to arrive at truth than fairytales.

What was fueling the Christian abolitionists? Was it the pro slavery writings of the Bible? Was it the pro slavery teachings of their “god”?
No it was the enlightenment that spurred revolutions, it was the scientific revolution that led to industrialization.
These are so much more important for humanity and human rights than any pro slavery fairytale.

And don’t get wrong I’m not trying to romanticize the Romans as strictly better.
I’m not blaming Christians for the fall of Rome as if it is all their fault, I mainly do that just to goad you because it was a contributing factor, unlike homosexuality which you people routinely used to insult me with “homos caused Rome to fall”.

In some ways the fall of Rome helped Europe, but you shouldn’t view the period of time when people were focused on superstitions and knowing the world through religion as some great step forward, in some ways it was a huge step backwards.

Christianity didn't start slavery. It was well entrenched when Christianity started. Christianity led us away from it.

 

[El Correcto]

I never said that homosexuals caused the fall of Rome. I have said that open homosexual behavior is an indicator of the moral decadence that has preceded the fall of many empires, including Rome.

How do you explain gay sex since the start of the Roman Empire the sign of Rome failing when they prospered with much more liberal views of human sexuality than Christianity.
It wasn’t just something they began doing towards the end, that is stupid.

And you may not realize it but the United States was very much a Christian nation until about the 60's.

No it wasn’t, you don’t understand deism. A nation of Christians? Sure, a Christian nation? No.

As is always the case, it got wealthy, then morally decadent, and appears to be heading towards the same fate of all great civilizations.

Better than being super religious, backwards and racist. I’d say society has greatly improved overall, you are the terrible person, not gays or trans people.

Difference is modern communications and the widespread use of drugs is doing it to us at a much faster pace. That and the misguided if not downright evil people who are spurring our demise.

What kind of narcissistic bull is this, you just view it as the fall because society no longer believes the same things you do about morality or religion.

This is a very dumb take overall, it’s spurring the demise of your fairytale, not of us.

 

[El Correcto]

Christianity didn't start slavery.

Never said it did.

It was well entrenched when Christianity started.

Yes. It was also entrenched in the religion the Christian sect branched off of and in Christianity itself.

Christianity led us away from it.

You keep crediting a pro slavery religion with ending slavery. The slaveholding owners had more biblical backing for slavery than abolitionists did for ending it.


I don’t think you even agree with how abolitionists used the verses to oppose slavery.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
This same verse could be used to support my argument for trans people that you people deny and act all pissy about.

 

[El Correcto]

I could use the exact same disingenuous argument abolitionists made with that Bible passage to say there shouldn’t be slaves to say there shouldn’t be a gender binary.

I don’t agree with the abolitionists and their interpretation of that verse, it is very clear there are slaves and Christianity reinforces slave-master dynamics. Just like it is clear there is man and woman in Christianity with strict gender roles.

 

[vantexan]

How do you explain gay sex since the start of the Roman Empire the sign of Rome failing when they prospered with much more liberal views of human sexuality than Christianity.
It wasn’t just something they began doing towards the end, that is stupid.

No it wasn’t, you don’t understand deism. A nation of Christians? Sure, a Christian nation? No.

Better than being super religious, backwards and racist. I’d say society has greatly improved overall, you are the terrible person, not gays or trans people.

What kind of narcissistic bull is this, you just view it as the fall because society no longer believes the same things you do about morality or religion.

This is a very dumb take overall, it’s spurring the demise of your fairytale, not of us.

You just keep holding onto that as it's all burning down around you.

 

[vantexan]

Never said it did.

Yes. It was also entrenched in the religion the Christian sect branched off of and in Christianity itself.

You keep crediting a pro slavery religion with ending slavery. The slaveholding owners had more biblical backing for slavery than abolitionists did for ending it.


I don’t think you even agree with how abolitionists used the verses to oppose slavery.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
This same verse could be used to support my argument for trans people that you people deny and act all pissy about.

You seem to suggest that Christians invented slavery. That Roman Empire you're so fond of was built on enslaving conquered peoples. Christians had to deal with that system and lead the world towards ending it.

 

[El Correcto]

You seem to suggest that Christians invented slavery. That Roman Empire you're so fond of was built on enslaving conquered peoples. Christians had to deal with that system and lead the world towards ending it.

No I didn’t.
The Greeks and Carthage had big slaves populations from conquests while the Romans were just an upstart nation in the region.

Christendom once society was built back up went on to do the same horrible things Romans did. They were an empire like Rome and gained power through slave labor just like every empire before them.

 

[vantexan]

No I didn’t.
The Greeks and Carthage had big slaves populations from conquests while the Romans were just an upstart nation in the region.

Christendom once society was built back up went on to do the same horrible things Romans did. They were an empire like Rome and gained power through slave labor just like every empire before them.

Let me ask, when slaves were proclaimed free in 1863 by Lincoln did that end the problems blacks faced? Of course not. It's a process, and has been ongoing since then.

 

[vantexan]

No I didn’t.
The Greeks and Carthage had big slaves populations from conquests while the Romans were just an upstart nation in the region.

Christendom once society was built back up went on to do the same horrible things Romans did. They were an empire like Rome and gained power through slave labor just like every empire before them.

And stop being so Eurocentric. Slavery was everywhere.

 

[El Correcto]

And stop being so Eurocentric. Slavery was everywhere.

You’re the only one concerned about the source of slavery.
I’m not laying the blame for slavery at Christianity, white people or western society.
I’m saying Christianity is a pro slavery religion.

 

[El Correcto]

Let me ask, when slaves were proclaimed free in 1863 by Lincoln did that end the problems blacks faced? Of course not. It's a process, and has been ongoing since then.

That has nothing to do with Christianity being a pro slavery religion.
Just admit it, you are the one saying a pro slavery religion freed the slaves when I have named many other factors that led to society moving on from slavery that doesn’t involve belief in fairytales.

 

[vantexan]

You’re the only one concerned about the source of slavery.
I’m not laying the blame for slavery at Christianity, white people or western society.
I’m saying Christianity is a pro slavery religion.

No, it isn't.

 

[vantexan]

That has nothing to do with Christianity being a pro slavery religion.
Just admit it, you are the one saying a pro slavery religion freed the slaves when I have named many other factors that led to society moving on from slavery that doesn’t involve belief in fairytales.

And you the only one calling it a pro slavery religion. Just more of your hatred for Christianity because it calls homosexuality a sin.

 

[El Correcto]

No, it isn't.

The Bible is clear: God endorses slavery.

There are at least seven passages in the Bible where God is depicted as directly permitting or endorsing slavery. Two of these are in the Law of Moses: God permitted the Israelites to take slaves friend…

michaelpahl.com

I think this guy has a good viewpoint on it, mostly because he is making the same argument as me, but with the direct passages and from a much more friendly perspective on the fairytale.
But he also disagrees with people like you who continue to read hatred of minorities or rejection of their sin from scripture while ignoring all the pro slavery scripture as not endorsing slavery.

Like I said if you really understood Christian abolitionist arguments you would see they are very pro lgbt in modern context. You would have disagreed with abolitionists with your viewpoint on lgbt people, you would of viewed freeing the slaves as a sign of society’s decline and stepping away from god.

 

[El Correcto]

You would of been making “natural” order arguments about why slaves need to serve their masters well.

 

[vantexan]

The Bible is clear: God endorses slavery.

There are at least seven passages in the Bible where God is depicted as directly permitting or endorsing slavery. Two of these are in the Law of Moses: God permitted the Israelites to take slaves friend…

michaelpahl.com

I think this guy has a good viewpoint on it, mostly because he is making the same argument as me, but with the direct passages and from a much more friendly perspective on the fairytale.
But he also disagrees with people like you who continue to read hatred of minorities or rejection of their sin from scripture while ignoring all the pro slavery scripture as not endorsing slavery.

Like I said if you really understood Christian abolitionist arguments you would see they are very pro lgbt in modern context. You would have disagreed with abolitionists with your viewpoint on lgbt people, you would of viewed freeing the slaves as a sign of society’s decline and stepping away from god.

No, I wouldn't. I would have never for example called for the jailing of homosexuals as once was common unless they were performing sex acts in a public place. I think it's reprehensible what homosexuals do in gay pride parades but if they're legally allowed to do so then I can't stop it.

Concerning slavery. The New Testament deals with slavery in Philemon. It was the system of the day by which most things got done. It was a manual labor world. Philemon made it clear that both slaves and masters had a responsibility to treat each other with respect and dignity. It's what allowed going forward as Christianity became predominant the decent treatment of slaves. That wasn't always adhered to. As whites became no longer enslaved the powers that be decided that it was ok to enslave Africans because they in their opinion weren't entirely human. And that was reflected in our own constitution when deciding how to count people to determine political power among the States. Slavery in the U.S. was particularly brutal for blacks. As it was brutal for Native Americans in the Spanish world. The Portuguese seemed to have a better handle on it and that's reflected in the mixing of races in Brazil to a greater extent than anywhere else. The French in Haiti were so brutal that when the slaves successfully rebelled they killed every white in Haiti.

The point is the issue is a lot more complex than you're making it. A lot had to do with local culture. Throughout history the Church often compromised because the greedy in power demanded they do so. But that doesn't change my supposition. The Bible makes it clear that one can claim to be Christian but they will be judged by their actions and will lose their soul if they don't live the Christian life. You can point to all the bad things in history that supposed Christians did but in the end those people will be judged for those things.

 

[El Correcto]

No, I wouldn't. I would have never for example called for the jailing of homosexuals as once was common unless they were performing sex acts in a public place. I think it's reprehensible what homosexuals do in gay pride parades but if they're legally allowed to do so then I can't stop it.

They aren’t legally allowed to do that, it is against the law and is a rare thing you are picking out.

Concerning slavery. The New Testament deals with slavery in Philemon. It was the system of the day by which most things got done. It was a manual labor world. Philemon made it clear that both slaves and masters had a responsibility to treat each other with respect and dignity. It's what allowed going forward as Christianity became predominant the decent treatment of slaves. That wasn't always adhered to.

I wouldn’t call biblical treatment of slaves or calling for slaves to obey brutal masters as good morality or anti slavery. I don’t care how other societies treated slaves, I’m pointing out that isn’t good morality for all time.

As whites became no longer enslaved the powers that be decided that it was ok to enslave Africans because they in their opinion weren't entirely human.

Slavery mostly turned into serfdom and serfdom wasn’t much better. They still had slaves as well.

And that was reflected in our own constitution when deciding how to count people to determine political power among the States. Slavery in the U.S. was particularly brutal for blacks. As it was brutal for Native Americans in the Spanish world. The Portuguese seemed to have a better handle on it and that's reflected in the mixing of races in Brazil to a greater extent than anywhere else. The French in Haiti were so brutal that when the slaves successfully rebelled they killed every white in Haiti.

Yes Christendom slavery was very brutal.

The point is the issue is a lot more complex than you're making it.

No you’re making it very convoluted. The point is the Bible supports slavery and Christianity is a pro slavery religion.

A lot had to do with local culture. Throughout history the Church often compromised because the greedy in power demanded they do so.

The church was also greedy and immoral in a lot the things they did.

But that doesn't change my supposition. The Bible makes it clear that one can claim to be Christian but they will be judged by their actions and will lose their soul if they don't live the Christian life.

So freeing the slaves and telling slaves to disobey they masters were leading those slaves away from Christian teachings, do you think abolitionists and run away slaves will burn in hell for their heresy?

You can point to all the bad things in history that supposed Christians did but in the end those people will be judged for those things.

No I’m also pointing to what is written in your book as well as its real world application. Christianity fully endorses slavery.

 

[vantexan]

They aren’t legally allowed to do that, it is against the law and is a rare thing you are picking out.

I wouldn’t call biblical treatment of slaves or calling for slaves to obey brutal masters as good morality or anti slavery. I don’t care how other societies treated slaves, I’m pointing out that isn’t good morality for all time.

Slavery mostly turned into serfdom and serfdom wasn’t much better.

Yes Christendom slavery was very brutal.

No you’re making it very convoluted. The point is the Bible supports slavery and Christianity is a pro slavery religion.

The church was also greedy and immoral in a lot the things they did.

So freeing the slaves and telling slaves to disobey they masters were leading those slaves away from Christian teachings, do you think abolitionists and run away slaves will burn in hell for their heresy?

No I’m also pointing to what is written in your book as well as its real world application. Christianity fully endorses slavery.

Jailing.homosexuals was at one time very common.

No, Christianity doesn't endorse slavery.

Serfdom eventually was overcome too.

 

[El Correcto]

Jailing.homosexuals was at one time very common.

No, Christianity doesn't endorse slavery.

Serfdom eventually was overcome too.

Yes is absolutely does.
You’re very deep in denial over this.
God endorses and condones slavery all through out the Bible and slaves are even viewed as a sign of blessings from god in Judaism.

New Testament reaffirms master’s rights over slaves. It is up to the slave master to free Onesimus and Paul returns a slave to his master. He would not oppose slavery or make the act of freeing a slave compulsory the same way Americans did.

There are passages teaching slaves to be obedient to their masters as they would god. Fear and trembling, even to brutal or perverse masters.


It is a pro slavery religion to it’s core of Judaism to the New Testament.