Local 89 mailing to 9000 members

[ezmoney5150]

Addressed????
17i needs to be eliminated, period.
Changing serious to cardinal doesn't prohibit the company from the same loose interpretation of an undefined article.
The rest of the "improved language" falls far short of solving their perspective issues.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

Again, a tutorial on negotiations. If the company doesn't agree to eliminate 17i its not going anywhere. Period. You can kick and scream all you want.

 

[Inthegame]

Addressed????
17i needs to be eliminated, period.
Changing serious to cardinal doesn't prohibit the company from the same loose interpretation of an undefined article.
The rest of the "improved language" falls far short of solving their perspective issues.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

Yes it has been addressed. Language has changed which means it has been addressed, apparently not to your satisfaction. How many members have you lost at a grievance panel over "other serious offenses"? I hope none because it's a silly, pile on, bogus charge UPS uses and responsible agents laugh at. Only TDU and weak locals have issues with it.
However in the non-UPS world "Cardinal" holds a much higher standard in arbitrations and was inserted as a measure to compel UPS to get "serious" with the usage. BTW the company regularly interprets all articles "loosely".

 

[Bubblehead]

Yes it has been addressed. Language has changed which means it has been addressed, apparently not to your satisfaction. How many members have you lost at a grievance panel over "other serious offenses"? I hope none because it's a silly, pile on, bogus charge UPS uses and responsible agents laugh at. Only TDU and weak locals have issues with it.
However in the non-UPS world "Cardinal" holds a much higher standard in arbitrations and was inserted as a measure to compel UPS to get "serious" with the usage. BTW the company regularly interprets all articles "loosely".

We haven't lost anybody, in regards to their employment, as a result of 17i (other serious offenses).
That being said, many of our members have lost many thou$and$ of dollars in lost wages due to a weak panel system and lack of fortitude by charged employees when the company throws their sheite against the wall to see if it sticks, knowing it wont.
Back pay is a myth in regards to 17i.
Return to work, discharge reduced to suspension, time served is the reality.
Cardinal?Serious?, it will make no difference in the world of UPS.
Your right, it's a silly, pile on, bogus charge that is interpreted loosely and it wont change until 17i is completely eliminated or specifically defined.
​What idiot let it in the first place?

407, you liked Inthegame's above post.
How did it work out for you when you were discharged under this crap language?
How much money did it cost you?
Your agent is responsible and certainly not TDU, I man I respect very much.
Do you think changing it from serious to cardinal is really going to insulate you from the wrath of 17i at the Ohio Panel in the future?
I myself lost 9 days pay because of 17i for an infraction that clearly warranted nothing more than a warning letter, failure to follow instructions.
As a matter of fact, in the end, my discharge was reduced to a warning letter at the local level only when I agreed to release the company of any back pay liability.

So no Inthegame, it hasn't been "addressed to my satisfaction".

 

[Anonymous 10]

We haven't lost anybody, in regards to their employment, as a result of 17i (other serious offenses).
That being said, many of our members have lost many thou$and$ of dollars in lost wages due to a weak panel system and lack of fortitude by charged employees when the company throws their sheite against the wall to see if it sticks, knowing it wont.
Back pay is a myth in regards to 17i.
Return to work, discharge reduced to suspension, time served is the reality.
Cardinal?Serious?, it will make no difference in the world of UPS.
Your right, it's a silly, pile on, bogus charge that is interpreted loosely and it wont change until 17i is completely eliminated or specifically defined.
​What idiot let it in the first place?

407, you liked Inthegame's above post.
How did it work out for you when you were discharged under this crap language?
How much money did it cost you?
Your agent is responsible and certainly not TDU, I man I respect very much.
Do you think changing it from serious to cardinal is really going to insulate you from the wrath of 17i at the Ohio Panel in the future?
I myself lost 9 days pay because of 17i for an infraction that clearly warranted nothing more than a warning letter, failure to follow instructions.
As a matter of fact, in the end, my discharge was reduced to a warning letter at the local level only when I agreed to release the company of any back pay liability.

So no Inthegame, it hasn't been "addressed to my satisfaction".

Actually my long in the tooth business agent is optimistic of the word language change. Cardinal is a big deal. I'm not going to debate with you on this site. I have information because of an excellent relationship with my local union but unfortunately I can post it on this site due to my screen name canceling my annomious status that you enjoy. I think we can agree my balls are big in this situation you just put out there on this very public forum. I do not appreciate this but since you brought up my situation. I did have a very bad one including restraining orders attorney's subpoena. I got paid unemployment and the manager in question has been terminated. Those two last things in my eye for an eye world were enough but I agree 17i was an abortion. The cardinal might be our saving grace and my great business agent will use this to his advantage and win in the end. Whatever

 

[Inthegame]

The original intent of 17i was for the unnamed offenses (eg. sex on the route stuff) that still gets covered by "cardinal" only now forces UPS to stop the blanket use of "other serious..." beyond the original intent. The panel system is only as good as the Director, chairmen and panel members. The new Director hopefully will be more responsive to issues you've enumerated. The problem with the return to work, no back pay award is the member gets that choice, not the local (at least in our local). Invariably no one takes the chance. Again the new Director doesn't care for this solution and has suggested locals urge members to continue fighting. A few favorable back pay awards will convince locals this is a better solution. Time will tell, but the panel system is not going away, unless you prefer mega-locals with unlimited funds for arbitration.

 

[PiedmontSteward]

The original intent of 17i was for the unnamed offenses (eg. sex on the route stuff) that still gets covered by "cardinal" only now forces UPS to stop the blanket use of "other serious..." beyond the original intent. The panel system is only as good as the Director, chairmen and panel members. The new Director hopefully will be more responsive to issues you've enumerated. The problem with the return to work, no back pay award is the member gets that choice, not the local (at least in our local). Invariably no one takes the chance. Again the new Director doesn't care for this solution and has suggested locals urge members to continue fighting. A few favorable back pay awards will convince locals this is a better solution. Time will tell, but the panel system is not going away, unless you prefer mega-locals with unlimited funds for arbitration.

The panel system isn't ideal, but it's still leaps and bounds better than anything a non-union employee will ever get. The primary reason it takes so long to have a case heard at panel is how the company/labor manager will string the case out to deliberately keep the member out of work until the next monthly panel; typically, you can only get a case docketed 10 days before the panel is slated to have a session. This works in the company's favor by giving them time to compile a better case and by making the affected member grow desperate enough to potentially be willing to sign a last-and-final agreement or trip up when being questioned at panel. Quite frankly (and this goes doubly so if you're FT), if you can't afford to be out of work for the month to month and a half it might take to get to panel, then you're doing something wrong with your finances.

As far as back pay goes, it honestly depends on how bad the company ****ed up. Very rarely is a labor manager (in my experience, our area LM is a hardass) going to agree to back pay without the imminent threat of taking a case to panel that he's all-but-guaranteed to lose. If the member is at fault, but not quite at fault to the level wherein (in the arbitrator's view) they deserve to lose their job, they won't receive anything. If it's a case of the division manager having an ax to grind and that's clear, then they'll probably be made whole. However, as Inthegame says above, almost no one will take that chance if they're offered their job back (with the exception of a BS last and final agreement, which I've been seeing offered more and more lately..) at the center/local level meeting.

 

[Bubblehead]

Actually my long in the tooth business agent is optimistic of the word language change. Cardinal is a big deal. I'm not going to debate with you on this site. I have information because of an excellent relationship with my local union but unfortunately I can post it on this site due to my screen name canceling my annomious status that you enjoy. I think we can agree my balls are big in this situation you just put out there on this very public forum. I do not appreciate this but since you brought up my situation. I did have a very bad one including restraining orders attorney's subpoena. I got paid unemployment and the manager in question has been terminated. Those two last things in my eye for an eye world were enough but I agree 17i was an abortion. The cardinal might be our saving grace and my great business agent will use this to his advantage and win in the end. Whatever

I wasn't trying to "out you" in any way, as you have often alluded to your trials and tribulations with terminations on this site.
I don't think I listed any specifics aside from Art 17i???
Your situation was deplorable and I suffered also following the twists and turns as it unraveled and admired your perseverance throughout the process.
I sincerely hope you guys are right and that this change will turn the tides of injustice.
I simply don't see how changing that one word will change the tactics of this ruthless company.
Until there is a change in the way panels decide these cases, coupled with renewed fortitude and confidence within the membership will things change.
Again, I didn't give any specifics and didn't think I was referencing anything you hadn't many times before on this site.
I'm sorry if I betrayed any confidence you placed in me.

 

[Inthegame]

Until there is a change in the way panels decide these cases, coupled with renewed fortitude and confidence within the membership will things change.

Bingo

 

[Anonymous 10]

I wasn't trying to "out you" in any way, as you have often alluded to your trials and tribulations with terminations on this site.
I don't think I listed any specifics aside from Art 17i???
Your situation was deplorable and I suffered also following the twists and turns as it unraveled and admired your perseverance throughout the process.
I sincerely hope you guys are right and that this change will turn the tides of injustice.
I simply don't see how changing that one word will change the tactics of this ruthless company.
Until there is a change in the way panels decide these cases, coupled with renewed fortitude and confidence within the membership will things change.
Again, I didn't give any specifics and didn't think I was referencing anything you hadn't many times before on this site.
I'm sorry if I betrayed any confidence you placed in me.

You can't out me. Everyone where I'm at knows who I am. Management looks at my posts. I didn't start out with this screen name to show my balls but they do go balls deep in this anonymous Internet site. See most hide behind a screen name but I can't and don't where I'm at. So it is what it is. Carry on and when you are on teamcare I will welcome you and I bet it goes so well you will fly like a cardinal.

 

[Bubblehead]

You can't out me. Everyone where I'm at knows who I am. Management looks at my posts. I didn't start out with this screen name to show my balls but they do go balls deep in this anonymous Internet site. See most hide behind a screen name but I can't and don't where I'm at. So it is what it is. Carry on and when you are on teamcare I will welcome you and I bet it goes so well you will fly like a cardinal.

​No worries then???

 

[Anonymous 10]

​No worries then???

You're good.

 

[twoweeled]

Don't be to sure. Ups will step over a buck to save a dime just to spite someone. I've seen it happen many times. Fred's a jerk and people tend to get even.

I don't know Fred and I know nothing of the politics of local 89. I say, if they are losing benefits, than go for it, I wish you luck. I also know, your right! UPS will step over a buck to save a dime just out of spite! Strange how such a large company can sometimes mimic a little spoiled child.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

17i has been addressed,(serious offenses has been changed to cardinal) of course TDU doesn't mention that. New 9.5/retaliation and harassment language is in the National. But you're not voting on the National. That's over.

i know what i am voting on and i realize 17 I has been"re-dressed",i mean addressed.but these were the top issues in our supplemental agreement and still continue to be to the effect we have been encouraged to vote it down.that language needs to be taken out completely.a good wage and benefit package are just a bad manager away from being sent home.and for future reference,i could care less what or what not tdu mentions.they suck.

 

[chuchu]

I guess the thousands of people who voted No! in local 89 don't agree. And to be factual, the no! vote helped get rid of that MMI sudden death language in Art 3, got "safety, methods, and service" smoke issues out of 17i and gave us in the Central another chance to upgrade our insurance that everyone..including the IBT ...said wasn't changeable. Looks like we should hire an attorney firm next time if we gotta negotiate with the IBT and UPS. The company doesn't want any trouble with Louisville because that hub is the showpiece and financial pivot point for the services that actually makes the profits for the investors. A work stoppage there would be financial suicide for UPS and they know it.
For some unknown reason I think the union and the management thought we'd all drink the koolaid the first or second time around. We'll wait until Oct 9 to see if we are really blind sheep.

 

[Anonymous 10]

Not a chance in hell this will ever happen, short of a strike or lockout.
Spite doesn't change logistics or the ENORMOUS investment UPS has in Worldport.
Fred Z has a huge bargaining chip and is playing it to the fullest.
Good for him, and so far, good for me.
The pot has been sweetened as a result of our first NO VOTE in the Central Region.
I'll be voting no again.

How's that working out for you now? I'm not saying I've known about this all along but I've been posting this scenario since at least June. Just saying

 

[Anonymous 10]

I guess the thousands of people who voted No! in local 89 don't agree. And to be factual, the no! vote helped get rid of that MMI sudden death language in Art 3, got "safety, methods, and service" smoke issues out of 17i and gave us in the Central another chance to upgrade our insurance that everyone..including the IBT ...said wasn't changeable. Looks like we should hire an attorney firm next time if we gotta negotiate with the IBT and UPS. The company doesn't want any trouble with Louisville because that hub is the showpiece and financial pivot point for the services that actually makes the profits for the investors. A work stoppage there would be financial suicide for UPS and they know it.
For some unknown reason I think the union and the management thought we'd all drink the koolaid the first or second time around. We'll wait until Oct 9 to see if we are really blind sheep.

Let's just see how Freds members feel about him in a couple years when there is less jobs in local 89. As it is in this forum members can be very fickle at the drop of a hat. Just because they like you today because you might have done something for them they can turn on you at the drop of a hat when something doesn't go their way. We'll see

 

[chuchu]

Let's just see how Freds members feel about him in a couple years when there is less jobs in local 89. As it is in this forum members can be very fickle at the drop of a hat. Just because they like you today because you might have done something for them they can turn on you at the drop of a hat when something doesn't go their way. We'll see

Yes, I agree, people change with what affects their world. I'm a steward too and sometimes it takes binoculars to find the people who "have your back". Cleveland's had the union insurance for awhile I was told. Our insurance is a lot more comprehensive to date.

I know the costs are rising (my dad had two pharmacies) and there will be some give and take......has to be. But, the language that hurts part time workers (and families) has got to go. We need some language improvements to happen yet but we are all in this together and need to see everyone else's issues and respect how they feel because we, too, want to be respected.

It won't be long and this ratification will happen and things will get better.

We appreciate what Cleveland brings to the table. Thank you guys! OK? We just want some language added to protect the healthcare issue and some removed to protect full time job opportunities and progression. Have a good night. Go Browns!

 

[Anonymous 10]

Yes, I agree, people change with what affects their world. I'm a steward too and sometimes it takes binoculars to find the people who "have your back". Cleveland's had the union insurance for awhile I was told. Our insurance is a lot more comprehensive to date.

I know the costs are rising (my dad had two pharmacies) and there will be some give and take......has to be. But, the language that hurts part time workers (and families) has got to go. We need some language improvements to happen yet but we are all in this together and need to see everyone else's issues and respect how they feel because we, too, want to be respected.

It won't be long and this ratification will happen and things will get better.

We appreciate what Cleveland brings to the table. Thank you guys! OK? We just want some language added to protect the healthcare issue and some removed to protect full time job opportunities and progression. Have a good night. Go Browns!

I'll take one thing from Louisville. Teddy Bridgewater.

 

[stink219]

They will they always do. Their members will pay a price while Fred and the boys sit comfortably in their offices. The members will grow to hate this man.

He is a back stabbing prick.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

I'm from Philly area. There's no way they could handle a 33% increase like that overnight. Would need a major expansion.

You are aware they diverted about a third of PHL's work to Louisville to better utilize Worldport. They eliminated the day-shift behind this. PHL has the capacity, and then some. In fact, they are reinstating the day shift-rumor has it in part because of the problems in Louisville.