I appreciate the replies I have gotten, and I do enjoy a vigorous discussion and healthy exchange in the marketplace of ideas. Thank you Upstate and Cachsux. I must reply back…
I can respect both the rule of law and Voltaire when he said “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it.” I also can respect the idea that there is a time for civil disobedience in response to a bad law.
Traditional according to what nearly every society (of any religion) over the entire course of human history has believed.
I also would provide service as a UPSer in all three situations described above. My only aim was to give food for thought. I can’t say I agree with your conclusion that we go overboard in this country to accommodate the consciences of others. I am glad the military has made exceptions for conscientious objectors in times when there was a draft. As another example, on the subject of abortion, I would hate to see the government mandate that all pharmacies carry the morning after pill, even if the pharmacy owner (say a mom and pop operation) did not want to.
My argument is based on what most people call “natural law.” In the case of a heterosexual inter-racial or inter-faith relationship, there is no objection to be made from a natural law standpoint.
Even if a condition could not be cured, that does not mean that it is normal and not disordered. Anorexia isn’t caused by a virus and there isn’t a there does not appear to be an “alcoholism gene” even if the condition does sometimes run in families and appears to have some genetic influence. While they are a minority, there are many who have left the homosexual lifestyle and some of them have even been able to marry, have children, and remain faithful to their opposite sex spouses. The man who led the way (Spitzer is the name) in seeing homosexuality delisted as a psychological disorder in the 1970s, being the curious scientist that he is, became interested in the claims of people who said they had changed their orientation. When he announced that he concluded that certain people had indeed changed, those people who I believe are more interested in an agenda instead of the truth of things got very upset with him. Exodus International is an organization that helps people, who want to, leave the homosexual lifestyle. I have heard a Joseph Nicolosi, who heads NARTH (National Association for the Repair and Therapy of Homosexuality) interviewed on the radio. In short, to me his theories and explanations sounded as if they had a lot of merit. Nicolosi has also appeared on the Dr. Phil Show (as an authority on a particular perspective, not to get help for himself).
I too am glad the moderators left your comments in and I appreciate your thoughts. I see some of my remarks need clarification. There are many different species of bacteria. Some make us sick, others do not. Our bodies even need certain bacteria. This is pushing up to the edge of my expertise but I don’t believe we have fecal choliform (sp?) bacteria in our mouths. They are quite pathogenic and I know for sure that sanitation, sewers, waste treatment, and clean waterways are important to public health. The point of my comment was to bring up a health issue. I am aware that some heterosexuals have engaged in behaviors typically associated with homosexuality. I have never meant to imply that such a behavior when done with a person of the opposite gender is a sign that someone is gay. And yes, if a gay couple refrains from such behaviors, then that removes one health concern from the table, but I firmly stand by my original comment that ” Even the simple minded among us can understand what parts are naturally designed to be brought together.”
According to the census bureau, people living alone is the fastest growing segment of the population. I wouldn’t equate living alone with solitary confinement or cruelty. Anyway, I believe living alone is better than living in a disordered relationship in general.
Deeply held feeling, in and of themselves, neither make a factual type (eg. Jesus rose bodily from the dead) statement true nor false. Attempts to look at the Bible objectively have led me to the conclusion that it is true. It is silly to conclude that anything is true simply because you believe it.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts. It would be wrong and silly for you to try and deny that your one child has Downs. My only concern (and I don’t have a perfect answer) is whether the t-shirts you describe put too much of a label on him. Actions speak louder than words. When people see your family loving your son, that may say all that should be said.
Thought it may interest you to know that the Greek language is far better than the English in describing love. There is “agape” love to describe the kind of love that should exist between a parent and a child. The same word is used in the Bible to describe God’s love for people. Then there is “fileo” or brotherly love, “eros” or erotic love, and finally “storge” love, which would describe love for some favorite thing or hobby.
I have no trouble saying that all ideologies are not equally good. While I don’t seek to have a theocracy established, it is encouraging to see government, in various ways promote acts of charity with the mindset that it is indeed “better to give than it is to receive” as opposed to promoting the idea that “the one with the most toys at the end of the day wins.”
I pray very sincerely every Sunday for “those bearing the responsibility of government” when as a whole church we ask God “so to direct and dispose the hearts off all in authority, that they may govern, legislate and administer justice with honesty and integrity according to Your Holy Word.”
My point in the original comment is that some adoption agencies who believe that the traditional family unit is the best environment in which to raise a child are now being legally forced to consider placing children in a situation they consider unsuitable or get out of the adoption business. Even if all else is equal, the agency cannot give preference to a heterosexual couple. Of the forty some agencies involved with adoption, only three do not wish to consider homosexual couples. They are now under fire.
I realize some children come from horrific situations. I just don’t think we should settle for what I believe to be the proverbial “lesser of two evils.” Please see more below…
I am encouraged by the recognition that there is such a thing as a “father unit” and that it is somehow separate and different from a “mother unit.” Tell me more about these units. I have a hard time picturing how the “father unit” of which you speak can rightly be a woman…I must say woman as “father unit” (a given in the case of a lesbian couple) just seems messed up to me...
My mind is drawn to an old Warner Bros. cartoon. An egg is placed under Fog Horn Leg Horn by the dog, and FHLH comes to think he’s laid an egg, and when the egg hatches he’s become a mother. The dog tells the little chick he’s ugly, and FHLH…I…I say FHLH feels “his family’s honor has been insulted and he demands satisfaction.” He and the dog will duke it out and FHLH tells his boy chick were “going to see who the better man is around here: that dog or your mother.” It was hillarious…
Men and women can parent equally well. What I am saying is that the man tends to offer something different to the child and the overall family unit than the woman does. That of course does not mean that a father cannot love or that a mother cannot discipline.
It not too controversial to say that the primary role model for a child is the parent of the same gender. But go on to say that a child will miss out on something when raised with a same sex couple, and that statement suddenly becomes very controversial.
The example I gave in my original comment and all the examples you gave are behaviors and skills and interests I have absolutely no problem with. Since we’re both are males and UPSers, I’ll say that one thing I just enjoy about UPS is that I feel guys tend to act like guys there. In certain places, there is a tendency for many of the men to be quite effeminate, some flamboyantly so. I am especially encouraged by you speaking of “a PINCH of femininity in my sons to round off the edges and a PINCH of masculinity in my daughter to sharpen hers.” Your words imply that there IS a masculine and a feminine and I believe that it is good that it’s a pinch and not all out everything stereotypically associated with the opposite gender. Perhaps there is still hope for some common ground between us…
I trust that you will agree with me on this one and your username “cachsux” gives me hope. It sounds like you feel there are some things at CACH that are not quite the way you believe they ought to be. I have been with UPS long enough to be confident you are right, but, the point is you ARE making a judgment on something as well.
I can respect both the rule of law and Voltaire when he said “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it.” I also can respect the idea that there is a time for civil disobedience in response to a bad law.
Traditional according to what nearly every society (of any religion) over the entire course of human history has believed.
I also would provide service as a UPSer in all three situations described above. My only aim was to give food for thought. I can’t say I agree with your conclusion that we go overboard in this country to accommodate the consciences of others. I am glad the military has made exceptions for conscientious objectors in times when there was a draft. As another example, on the subject of abortion, I would hate to see the government mandate that all pharmacies carry the morning after pill, even if the pharmacy owner (say a mom and pop operation) did not want to.
My argument is based on what most people call “natural law.” In the case of a heterosexual inter-racial or inter-faith relationship, there is no objection to be made from a natural law standpoint.
Even if a condition could not be cured, that does not mean that it is normal and not disordered. Anorexia isn’t caused by a virus and there isn’t a there does not appear to be an “alcoholism gene” even if the condition does sometimes run in families and appears to have some genetic influence. While they are a minority, there are many who have left the homosexual lifestyle and some of them have even been able to marry, have children, and remain faithful to their opposite sex spouses. The man who led the way (Spitzer is the name) in seeing homosexuality delisted as a psychological disorder in the 1970s, being the curious scientist that he is, became interested in the claims of people who said they had changed their orientation. When he announced that he concluded that certain people had indeed changed, those people who I believe are more interested in an agenda instead of the truth of things got very upset with him. Exodus International is an organization that helps people, who want to, leave the homosexual lifestyle. I have heard a Joseph Nicolosi, who heads NARTH (National Association for the Repair and Therapy of Homosexuality) interviewed on the radio. In short, to me his theories and explanations sounded as if they had a lot of merit. Nicolosi has also appeared on the Dr. Phil Show (as an authority on a particular perspective, not to get help for himself).
I too am glad the moderators left your comments in and I appreciate your thoughts. I see some of my remarks need clarification. There are many different species of bacteria. Some make us sick, others do not. Our bodies even need certain bacteria. This is pushing up to the edge of my expertise but I don’t believe we have fecal choliform (sp?) bacteria in our mouths. They are quite pathogenic and I know for sure that sanitation, sewers, waste treatment, and clean waterways are important to public health. The point of my comment was to bring up a health issue. I am aware that some heterosexuals have engaged in behaviors typically associated with homosexuality. I have never meant to imply that such a behavior when done with a person of the opposite gender is a sign that someone is gay. And yes, if a gay couple refrains from such behaviors, then that removes one health concern from the table, but I firmly stand by my original comment that ” Even the simple minded among us can understand what parts are naturally designed to be brought together.”
According to the census bureau, people living alone is the fastest growing segment of the population. I wouldn’t equate living alone with solitary confinement or cruelty. Anyway, I believe living alone is better than living in a disordered relationship in general.
Deeply held feeling, in and of themselves, neither make a factual type (eg. Jesus rose bodily from the dead) statement true nor false. Attempts to look at the Bible objectively have led me to the conclusion that it is true. It is silly to conclude that anything is true simply because you believe it.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts. It would be wrong and silly for you to try and deny that your one child has Downs. My only concern (and I don’t have a perfect answer) is whether the t-shirts you describe put too much of a label on him. Actions speak louder than words. When people see your family loving your son, that may say all that should be said.
Thought it may interest you to know that the Greek language is far better than the English in describing love. There is “agape” love to describe the kind of love that should exist between a parent and a child. The same word is used in the Bible to describe God’s love for people. Then there is “fileo” or brotherly love, “eros” or erotic love, and finally “storge” love, which would describe love for some favorite thing or hobby.
I have no trouble saying that all ideologies are not equally good. While I don’t seek to have a theocracy established, it is encouraging to see government, in various ways promote acts of charity with the mindset that it is indeed “better to give than it is to receive” as opposed to promoting the idea that “the one with the most toys at the end of the day wins.”
I pray very sincerely every Sunday for “those bearing the responsibility of government” when as a whole church we ask God “so to direct and dispose the hearts off all in authority, that they may govern, legislate and administer justice with honesty and integrity according to Your Holy Word.”
My point in the original comment is that some adoption agencies who believe that the traditional family unit is the best environment in which to raise a child are now being legally forced to consider placing children in a situation they consider unsuitable or get out of the adoption business. Even if all else is equal, the agency cannot give preference to a heterosexual couple. Of the forty some agencies involved with adoption, only three do not wish to consider homosexual couples. They are now under fire.
I realize some children come from horrific situations. I just don’t think we should settle for what I believe to be the proverbial “lesser of two evils.” Please see more below…
I am encouraged by the recognition that there is such a thing as a “father unit” and that it is somehow separate and different from a “mother unit.” Tell me more about these units. I have a hard time picturing how the “father unit” of which you speak can rightly be a woman…I must say woman as “father unit” (a given in the case of a lesbian couple) just seems messed up to me...
My mind is drawn to an old Warner Bros. cartoon. An egg is placed under Fog Horn Leg Horn by the dog, and FHLH comes to think he’s laid an egg, and when the egg hatches he’s become a mother. The dog tells the little chick he’s ugly, and FHLH…I…I say FHLH feels “his family’s honor has been insulted and he demands satisfaction.” He and the dog will duke it out and FHLH tells his boy chick were “going to see who the better man is around here: that dog or your mother.” It was hillarious…
Men and women can parent equally well. What I am saying is that the man tends to offer something different to the child and the overall family unit than the woman does. That of course does not mean that a father cannot love or that a mother cannot discipline.
It not too controversial to say that the primary role model for a child is the parent of the same gender. But go on to say that a child will miss out on something when raised with a same sex couple, and that statement suddenly becomes very controversial.
The example I gave in my original comment and all the examples you gave are behaviors and skills and interests I have absolutely no problem with. Since we’re both are males and UPSers, I’ll say that one thing I just enjoy about UPS is that I feel guys tend to act like guys there. In certain places, there is a tendency for many of the men to be quite effeminate, some flamboyantly so. I am especially encouraged by you speaking of “a PINCH of femininity in my sons to round off the edges and a PINCH of masculinity in my daughter to sharpen hers.” Your words imply that there IS a masculine and a feminine and I believe that it is good that it’s a pinch and not all out everything stereotypically associated with the opposite gender. Perhaps there is still hope for some common ground between us…
I trust that you will agree with me on this one and your username “cachsux” gives me hope. It sounds like you feel there are some things at CACH that are not quite the way you believe they ought to be. I have been with UPS long enough to be confident you are right, but, the point is you ARE making a judgment on something as well.
