Offical Post! What Behind The Numbers!

[Think outside the box]

So it appears that allot of you are looking at what is good for you instead of what is good for the teamster's over all.

If the teamsters were negotiating for the good of all( including our families) we would have a lot tighter language for Optional Holidays and 8 hour days. Instead they have already after one contract given back on the 8 hour day request. From one day to five.......What's up with that???

 

[Cole]

The biggest issue to some particularly in CS is pension, so wage increases over all is not imo reason to vote no. The fact that it is being rushed with little review from our elected officials, makes alot of us highly skeptical.

We expected some type of concessions w/ Ups paying in excess of 6 billion to get out of CS, but we don't expect to be kept in the dark, particulary with supplements etc..

 

[Damok]

The biggest issue to some particularly in CS is pension, so wage increases over all is not imo reason to vote no. The fact that it is being rushed with little review from our elected officials, makes alot of us highly skeptical.

We expected some type of concessions w/ Ups paying in excess of 6 billion to get out of CS, but we don't expect to be kept in the dark, particulary with supplements etc..

I have had quite a bit of time to review the material and we have had our local meeting already. Is your local giving the runaround with access to materials and/or a meeting to ask questions and have your concerns addressed? That would certainly bother me if it happened here.

* I apolgise if this was answered already in thread, I confess to coming to this party unprepared *

 

[Cole]

Oh we had what some could call a meeting today, with only an hour and a half before work, so we didn't get close to finishing it, not to mention we never even got to the Supplement.

I guess we'll have to call the local and pressure them to get their down here over the weekend, and have a real meeting over the contract, Maybe they could spend some of our money and make some copies of the Supplement that was just rushed out. As we know supplements can take away advantages from the National, and list Cardinal infractions etc...very important material, we need to know.

Our ba also said the ballots should have already been sent out!
It was obvious they were instructed to only go over the positive aspects.

It's up to us to make them go over all of it, and be ready for multiple questions.

DaMock,

How long have you been part-time? I mean no offense by this, but I have seen you post you would vote yes etc...as is your right, but I haven't seen what you like about it?

You are aware how bad the new part-timers will be getting hit with this right? Again, just so you know I am only asking out of curiosity and not sarcasm.

 

[Damok]

I don't believe I ever posted that I would vote no or yes, although as I get up there in years my memory is not what it used to be

No offense taken by the way. I fully realize there are some problems with this contract, I have never stated or meant to imply that I think it's great. most of the posts that people use a barometer of my opinion are those I make to counter posters who come in and yell "VOTE NO! IT SUX!" I think posts like those are detrimental to any valid discussions that may go on here. There is rarely any solid information in them, just drivel.

On the flip side there are many posters with solid information on why they will vote no who make excellent points. The main thing for me is that the negotiating committee was given a mandate of sorts from the survey we all, I hope, filled out. Pension, health and welfare issues were to be given top priority. I have been with the company (and the Teamsters) long enough to have put those issues at the top of the survey. The pension was/is in dire need of fixing. Rather than focus on who or what is to blame for it's troubles (I don't believe it can be squarely laid at the feet of one single group or person) I want to see if the changes outlined in the contract will go any decent distance towards fixing it so it will be around for a long long time.

Is there crappy language in the new contract? Yep.

Are there concessions in the contract? Yep.

Do I think it's a great contract? Nope.

Do I think it's a horrible contract? Nope.

Am I concerned about split raises, raises being lower than last contract and a portion of each raise possibly being taken and put toward the pension? Nope.

-- I think top pay at UPS is quite sufficient and any raise is a good raise considering the economic landscape we live in (compared to other businesses). I'm not crazy about part of the raise being put toward the pension, I like money as much as the next person, but if it is going with the specific purpose of securing the pension then I can live with it.

Do I like relative discrepancies between CEO pay and the average worker? Of course not.

Do I think CEO's are paid ridiculous amounts of money and their golden parachutes are obscene, especially when a company goes toilet bound? You bet I do.

However, some of these issues aren't a priority for me right now. They are important, there is no doubt but my concern is saving the pension and benefits.


Having said all that and wasted even more of your time , I have not made a decision on how I will vote. I am currently having discussions with my business agent and have calls in to my local. If it turns out that, once I decipher the pension language and math to as full an understanding as I believe I can come, I don't think it will deliver as it should I will vote no. If it turns out that I come to the conclusion that it will be the best option for the troubled pesnsion issue then I will vote yes.

In the meantime I will continue to file grievances when contract language is being violated. I will continue to monitor the progress or backtracking of the Union with regard to employees rights. I will also keep adding to my list of issues to be addressed "next time"

Signing off from yet another long rambling post. I'm sure I'll need to clarify some things I had written once the criticisms start flowing in

 

[Bentley]

It really dont matter what or who everyone is saying is or would be in control of your future. Nothing is secure unless it is held on your own. So the only thing that would make that difference is that we should be getting paid the full raise because UPS is definately making lots and lots of cash on the customer end. how much money would they be making by collecting the interest for thousands and thousands of employees half a raise each year on the other end. Its called "double dipping", the cost of living is outragous and only getting worse.
Has anyone heard of the red circle drivers from this contract? Ive heard something but dont if its true but if someone goes driving after the contract, not only do they have a 3 yr progression and 60 day probation period, they also would have a top pay of several dollars LESS than another driver. Is that true?

 

[GuyinBrown]

Ive heard something but dont if its true but if someone goes driving after the contract, not only do they have a 3 yr progression and 60 day probation period, they also would have a top pay of several dollars LESS than another driver. Is that true?

No. It was listed as a concession that UPS asked for but did not get. There would be one top pay rate, everyone would make the same amount.

 

[Braveheart]

I don't believe I ever posted that I would vote no or yes, although as I get up there in years my memory is not what it used to be

No offense taken by the way. I fully realize there are some problems with this contract, I have never stated or meant to imply that I think it's great. most of the posts that people use a barometer of my opinion are those I make to counter posters who come in and yell "VOTE NO! IT SUX!" I think posts like those are detrimental to any valid discussions that may go on here. There is rarely any solid information in them, just drivel.

On the flip side there are many posters with solid information on why they will vote no who make excellent points. The main thing for me is that the negotiating committee was given a mandate of sorts from the survey we all, I hope, filled out. Pension, health and welfare issues were to be given top priority. I have been with the company (and the Teamsters) long enough to have put those issues at the top of the survey. The pension was/is in dire need of fixing. Rather than focus on who or what is to blame for it's troubles (I don't believe it can be squarely laid at the feet of one single group or person) I want to see if the changes outlined in the contract will go any decent distance towards fixing it so it will be around for a long long time.

Is there crappy language in the new contract? Yep.

Are there concessions in the contract? Yep.

Do I think it's a great contract? Nope.

Do I think it's a horrible contract? Nope.

Am I concerned about split raises, raises being lower than last contract and a portion of each raise possibly being taken and put toward the pension? Nope.

-- I think top pay at UPS is quite sufficient and any raise is a good raise considering the economic landscape we live in (compared to other businesses). I'm not crazy about part of the raise being put toward the pension, I like money as much as the next person, but if it is going with the specific purpose of securing the pension then I can live with it.

Do I like relative discrepancies between CEO pay and the average worker? Of course not.

Do I think CEO's are paid ridiculous amounts of money and their golden parachutes are obscene, especially when a company goes toilet bound? You bet I do.

However, some of these issues aren't a priority for me right now. They are important, there is no doubt but my concern is saving the pension and benefits.


Having said all that and wasted even more of your time , I have not made a decision on how I will vote. I am currently having discussions with my business agent and have calls in to my local. If it turns out that, once I decipher the pension language and math to as full an understanding as I believe I can come, I don't think it will deliver as it should I will vote no. If it turns out that I come to the conclusion that it will be the best option for the troubled pesnsion issue then I will vote yes.

In the meantime I will continue to file grievances when contract language is being violated. I will continue to monitor the progress or backtracking of the Union with regard to employees rights. I will also keep adding to my list of issues to be addressed "next time"

Signing off from yet another long rambling post. I'm sure I'll need to clarify some things I had written once the criticisms start flowing in

What if this is the "next time"? What if there is no "next time"?

Why sell the farm to get a used car. They are showing you fancy paint job and pulling the carpet out from under you with all of the contract language changes.

 

[sawdusttv]

You said that right Braveheart!

Folks, keep in mind that we here in CS had $3000 and out in 1997, 10 years ago, and at that time our retirees were only paying $50 a month for there insurance. Now they are offering us $3000 and out with our insurance being $200 a person, a month. So if accepted we will be getting less than they got in 1997. That really sounds great, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Damok]

What if this is the "next time"? What if there is no "next time"?

Why sell the farm to get a used car. They are showing you fancy paint job and pulling the carpet out from under you with all of the contract language changes.

I try not to make decisions on What-Ifs".. What if I drive to work and I'm hit by a truck? What if I fly to Hawaii and the plane explodes? What if Hillary Clinton becomes President?

All nightmare scenarios that may or may not happen. I can't change the way I live my life because of fear.

 

[govols019]

If you saw the plane leaking fuel and one of the engines about to fall off before you boarded the plane to Hawaii you could avoid being on it when it exploded. Same thing with this contract.

 

[doolittle95]

I try not to make decisions on What-Ifs".. What if I drive to work and I'm hit by a truck? What if I fly to Hawaii and the plane explodes? What if Hillary Clinton becomes President?

All nightmare scenarios that may or may not happen. I can't change the way I live my life because of fear.

OK Damok, since u don't make decisions based on fear, why not vote NO this time around and see if a better contract comes along? This contract doesn't expire until 8/1/2008. Maybe they would address the parts of the contract that u think need improving.

 

[Damok]

OK Damok, since u don't make decisions based on fear, why not vote NO this time around and see if a better contract comes along? This contract doesn't expire until 8/1/2008. Maybe they would address the parts of the contract that u think need improving.

I will vote based on what I feel works best. I have my doubts about gaining anything if these same people go back to the bargaining table. I don't think they'll be all that motivated to change anything. Whatever my vote ends up being I am equally concerned it won't turn out the way I hope. I can only make my best decision as dictated by my experiences and the information I have available to me. my vote will be the same as some and different from others

I think the instability of the pension has made this a very difficult contract for us... we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

[Damok]

If you saw the plane leaking fuel and one of the engines about to fall off before you boarded the plane to Hawaii you could avoid being on it when it exploded. Same thing with this contract.

I'm pretty sure planes can have problems even when they look fine on the tarmac Mr. Smarty Pants That may be the case with the contract but I'm not going to presume to know for sure.

I'll tell you what... if I vote yes and the contract turns out to horrible over its life I'll buy you a beer. If I vote no and the contract turns out to have worked for the best I'll buy you a beer... you can't lose

 

[sawdusttv]

You said that right Braveheart!

Folks, keep in mind that we here in CS had $3000 and out in 1997, 10 years ago, and at that time our retirees were only paying $50 a month for there insurance. Now they are offering us $3000 and out with our insurance being $200 a person, a month. So if accepted we will be getting less than they got in 1997. That really sounds great, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furthermore the company is making much bigger profits than they were in 1997, yet they are offering us less of a pension. That really sounds like a contract that we all need to support, They make more and give us less!

That is not even getting into the many, many concessions in the contract concerning the daily operations.
Just remember the old saying when casting your vote!

"DUMB TRUCK DRIVER!"
and please, I am not pointing any fingers at any one person, I am included in this group. I am just saying what they must be thinking if this contract goes through.

 

[trickpony1]

I try not to make decisions on What-Ifs".. What if I drive to work and I'm hit by a truck? What if I fly to Hawaii and the plane explodes? What if Hillary Clinton becomes President?

All nightmare scenarios that may or may not happen. I can't change the way I live my life because of fear.

Good point.
Most one cell protozoans simply react to whatever the environment forces upon them.
God gave us a brain so we could try to stop the train wreck BEFORE it happens instead of being like the protozoan and waiting until after the train wreck to clean up the mess.
Many people feel this contract has too many "give backs" and vague language that will come back to haunt us. Are we supposed to disregard the "give backs" because they have dangled the pension "carrot" in front of our noses?

 

[doolittle95]

I will vote based on what I feel works best. I have my doubts about gaining anything if these same people go back to the bargaining table. I don't think they'll be all that motivated to change anything. Whatever my vote ends up being I am equally concerned it won't turn out the way I hope. What?! Yeah, you're right, why even vote? its hopeless.....C'mon Damok a few no votes on subsequent proposals might motivate them to change a few things, don't u think?

I think the instability of the pension has made this a very difficult contract for us... we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Good lord, putting aside the FACT that this conract only fixes the CS pension for UPS (permanently); while providing only a temporary fix for the actual CS fund; why not improve the language in every other part of the proposed contract?

You really don't think you're efforts r worth more money? You think giving back 25% of your "annual" wage is acceptable? You think that possibly having another 35 cents of that annual wage going into pension/wealfare is acceptable. (U don't see this language as a roundabout way of getting you to subsidize your own helathcare?) U don't see that the opt in/out language on over 9.5 undercuts seniority and will lead to the elimination of routes? U don't understand that the subcontracting changes and the 3 year layoff change can lead to the reduction of feeder jobs? No real protections now from GPS/technology being used in discipline. U think no more fulltime job creation is good thing? One year for partimers health care benes (18 months for family benes) to kick in? Sounds like they don't want older people w/families coming in any more...almost like age discrimination. Speaking of age discrimination, the new pension plan caps at 35yrs/ $3500, period. Assuming any new driver can make it that long or walk at that point, what is $3500 going to be worth in 35yrs? Hell, how r u CSers even going to make the 25/out and 30/out plans and afford to retire? Also UPS promising not to go after any more pensions for ten years is a guarantee that they WILL go after them in exactly ten years.

Yes the future is grim, thats why a NO vote now is so important. How ANY UPSer can read this proposal, understand it and vote yes is beyond my friggin comprehension.

 

[Damok]

Good lord, putting aside the FACT that this conract only fixes the CS pension for UPS (permanently); while providing only a temporary fix for the actual CS fund; why not improve the language in every other part of the proposed contract?

You really don't think you're efforts r worth more money? You think giving back 25% of your "annual" wage is acceptable? You think that possibly having another 35 cents of that annual wage going into pension/wealfare is acceptable. (U don't see this language as a roundabout way of getting you to subsidize your own helathcare?) U don't see that the opt in/out language on over 9.5 undercuts seniority and will lead to the elimination of routes? U don't understand that the subcontracting changes and the 3 year layoff change can lead to the reduction of feeder jobs? No real protections now from GPS/technology being used in discipline. U think no more fulltime job creation is good thing? One year for partimers health care benes (18 months for family benes) to kick in? Sounds like they don't want older people w/families coming in any more...almost like age discrimination. Speaking of age discrimination, the new pension plan caps at 35yrs/ $3500, period. Assuming any new driver can make it that long or walk at that point, what is $3500 going to be worth in 35yrs? Hell, how r u CSers even going to make the 25/out and 30/out plans and afford to retire? Also UPS promising not to go after any more pensions for ten years is a guarantee that they WILL go after them in exactly ten years.

Yes the future is grim, thats why a NO vote now is so important. How ANY UPSer can read this proposal, understand it and vote yes is beyond my friggin comprehension.

Wow where'd you come from? Inserting a response into my quote that had nothing to do with what I said was a nice touch. I'd sure like you to link where I posted voting was hopeless. You're actually doing nothing in this response except to try and make it seem like I've said things I haven't. Enjoy the rest of your day and try some deep breaths, it's an excellent relaxation technique... in with the good - out with the bad.

You assume too much and any Benny Hill fan will tell you what happens when you Assume.

 

[doolittle95]

Wow where'd you come from? Inserting a response into my quote that had nothing to do with what I said was a nice touch. I'd sure like you to link where I posted voting was hopeless. You're actually doing nothing in this response except to try and make it seem like I've said things I haven't. Enjoy the rest of your day and try some deep breaths, it's an excellent relaxation technique... in with the good - out with the bad.

You assume too much and any Benny Hill fan will tell you what happens when you Assume.

You wrote the following: I will vote based on what I feel works best. I have my doubts about gaining anything if these same people go back to the bargaining table. I don't think they'll be all that motivated to change anything. Whatever my vote ends up being I am equally concerned it won't turn out the way I hope. Sounds a bit hopeless to me. You also wrote: I think the instability of the pension has made this a very difficult contract for us... we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't. Again, a bit hopeless.

As to where I came from? It's called The Fence which is apparantly where u still take up residence. The insertation (yes thats a word, ask GWB) into your quote was an unitentional misuse of the multi-quote function, which speaks to my inexperience in these forums.

As to my "doing nothing more than to make it seem like you've said things you haven't", Well u did write the following: Am I concerned about split raises, raises being lower than last contract and a portion of each raise possibly being taken and put toward the pension? Nope.
-- I think top pay at UPS is quite sufficient and any raise is a good raise considering the economic landscape we live in (compared to other businesses). The economic landscape we live in is one in which our employer makes a billion dollars profit per quarter! I don't want to "assume" too much here but if you were a packge car driver like myself I think you would feel differently about this. We earn every penny we get from UPS. Most of the loaders in the AM earn every penny they get. what is it that u do here anyhow that u feel top pay is so "sufficient"? I'm not crazy about part of the raise being put toward the pension, I like money as much as the next person, but if it is going with the specific purpose of securing the pension then I can live with it. As I pointed out in my original response, this new pension proposal only "fixes" things for UPS and CS fund-to a much lesser degree as it is only a short term fix. Unless one has hundreds of thousands in UPS stock and/or plans to retire within five years it fixes nothing. Everything else i wrote highlighted the incredibly insulting concessions and poorly written changes to the contract.

Finally, my points were posed-in part-as somewhat rhetorical questions. So how will u answer them? You've had plenty of time to review and understand the proposed deal. The ballots are on the way. How will u respond? It is time to come off the Fence Damok! Where do u stand?!

Thank u for the breathing techniques, fortunately i have today and all next week off to practice them.

 

[Damok]

You wrote the following: I will vote based on what I feel works best. I have my doubts about gaining anything if these same people go back to the bargaining table. I don't think they'll be all that motivated to change anything. Whatever my vote ends up being I am equally concerned it won't turn out the way I hope. Sounds a bit hopeless to me. You also wrote: I think the instability of the pension has made this a very difficult contract for us... we're kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't. Again, a bit hopeless.

As to where I came from? It's called The Fence which is apparantly where u still take up residence. The insertation (yes thats a word, ask GWB) into your quote was an unitentional misuse of the multi-quote function, which speaks to my inexperience in these forums.

As to my "doing nothing more than to make it seem like you've said things you haven't", Well u did write the following: Am I concerned about split raises, raises being lower than last contract and a portion of each raise possibly being taken and put toward the pension? Nope.
-- I think top pay at UPS is quite sufficient and any raise is a good raise considering the economic landscape we live in (compared to other businesses). The economic landscape we live in is one in which our employer makes a billion dollars profit per quarter! I don't want to "assume" too much here but if you were a packge car driver like myself I think you would feel differently about this. We earn every penny we get from UPS. Most of the loaders in the AM earn every penny they get. what is it that u do here anyhow that u feel top pay is so "sufficient"? I'm not crazy about part of the raise being put toward the pension, I like money as much as the next person, but if it is going with the specific purpose of securing the pension then I can live with it. As I pointed out in my original response, this new pension proposal only "fixes" things for UPS and CS fund-to a much lesser degree as it is only a short term fix. Unless one has hundreds of thousands in UPS stock and/or plans to retire within five years it fixes nothing. Everything else i wrote highlighted the incredibly insulting concessions and poorly written changes to the contract.

Finally, my points were posed-in part-as somewhat rhetorical questions. So how will u answer them? You've had plenty of time to review and understand the proposed deal. The ballots are on the way. How will u respond? It is time to come off the Fence Damok! Where do u stand?!

Thank u for the breathing techniques, fortunately i have today and all next week off to practice them.

You say hopeless, I say pragmatic. Having the negotiating committee go back to the table to address issues that weren't set down as priorities by the members will, in my opinion, serve no purpose at this point. I urge you to keep making assumptions about where I stand or on which side of the issue I'll fall... it makes for interesting reading. The rest of your talking points have been discussed, responded to and discussed some more in other threads, you might want to go back and do some reading before trying to hash it all out in this thread.

Hopping back up on to my fence now. Gooooooooozzzz Fraba!