OJS Arbitration

[ManInBrown]

He was a driver. Then was fired. Then became a BA. Then started a wildcat strike...

Yeah figured that out after I made the post. Thx

 

[zubenelgenubi]

This is what I've heard as well.

This is part of the reason I posted this. The answer to some of these questions will help members be smarter grievance and documentation writers.

I know in a way the teamsters like us "dumb" for lack of a better word but when it comes to covering ones self I feel the more information the better.

I also think the contract is so long, convoluted, and has enough contradictions that even a BA who's been around a while still depends on other union officials to tell them what's up, which can lead to delayed responses for grievances. It pays to inform yourself, if only so you know what questions to ask, or so you can help your BA navigate the contract.

I get frustrated sometimes with my local and BA, but I also understand that he's got other contracts, employers, negotiations and grievances to deal with. That is why stewards are such an important first line of defense.

Most often I can get issues resolved without involving the BA or even filing grievances. Management relies completely on their labor guy to tell them what to do. I had one sup tell me "I don't know what's in your contract." The sad thing is we were talking about company policy. . But it's true, they don't. And they seem to be unaware that it's their contract too.

 

[542thruNthru]

I also think the contract is so long, convoluted, and has enough contradictions that even a BA who's been around a while still depends on other union officials to tell them what's up, which can lead to delayed responses for grievances. It pays to inform yourself, if only so you know what questions to ask, or so you can help your BA navigate the contract.

I get frustrated sometimes with my local and BA, but I also understand that he's got other contracts, employers, negotiations and grievances to deal with. That is why stewards are such an important first line of defense.

Most often I can get issues resolved without involving the BA or even filing grievances. Management relies completely on their labor guy to tell them what to do. I had one sup tell me "I don't know what's in your contract." The sad thing is we were talking about company policy. . But it's true, they don't. And they seem to be unaware that it's their contract too.

We're lucky in my local. We have 4 BAs that deal with UPS. 2 used to deal with UPS only now its only 1.

I love how management doesn't know the contract. I love to take advantage of it and point out when they don't believe me. It's actually helped me sometimes because I can say something is in the contract and they believe it when I'm exaggerating what it actually says.

The contract being convoluted is a weak excuse for a arbitration though. They bring a lawyer to these things I believe and labor lawyers should understand this stuff. Also you've been dealing with it for months with meetings and hearings. You should have all your ducks in a row.

 

[Boywondr]

There is a ton of things that he and his local should have brought as evidence but it feels like they were unprepared. I of course have never been to a arbitration. I'm curious if maybe @BigUnionGuy or @Inthegame could bring some information about how a arbitration works. I'm curious would that information have been put in this write up or would it just be skipped over as unimportant?

After the walk out I actually asked Tim where Liam was and he unloving replied "He's sweeping the basement, that's where he is".
That whole thing came back to bite the eboard.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

We're lucky in my local. We have 4 BAs that deal with UPS. 2 used to deal with UPS only now its only 1.

I love how management doesn't know the contract. I love to take advantage of it and point out when they don't believe me. It's actually helped me sometimes because I can say something is in the contract and they believe it when I'm exaggerating what it actually says.

The contract being convoluted is a weak excuse for a arbitration though. They bring a lawyer to these things I believe and labor lawyers should understand this stuff. Also you've been dealing with it for months with meetings and hearings. You should have all your ducks in a row.

Unless I'm mistaken, they would be limited to the scope of the original grievance. And since there are time limits on filing grievances, refiling a better grievance may not be an option. If that's the case, then it's an unfortunate way to run a grievance system. Then again, it probably keeps the system from getting bogged down by multiple refilings of every grievance.

 

[542thruNthru]

I would like to hear from the stewards or dedicated teamsters of this site. People like @sandwich @Boston25 @hondo @705red @wide load @PT Stewie @Bubblehead @Mugarolla @Inthegame @BigUnionGuy @Tony Q @Lead Belly @PiedmontSteward

I joined this site to learn and I have learned so much from these people and I have become a better teamster because of all of you. This is something members don't usually see (arbitration) I implore you to share your knowledge on this decision and (or) process.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

250 grown men that made the decision to walk. They all knew they would be fired then brought back that's hardcore .

Grown men or mindless sheep?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I can’t believe that this termination stuck. What’s to stop them from raising your SPORH whenever they feel like it and then terminating you when you can’t meet their bogus numbers?

They don't just "raise your SPORH whenever they feel like it". 3 day production rides are used to establish your SPORH with the thought being if you can run a 15.0 with an on car you should be able to get within 1.0-1.5 of that number when you are by yourself. Yes, not every day is the same and, yes, they do tend to "tweak" the load for those 3 days, but the methods are the methods and it was obvious to me in reading the ruling that Liam was either being a dick or was just a slug. There is no way in hell I would have risked my livelihood for him.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

They don't just "raise your SPORH whenever they feel like it". 3 day production rides are used to establish your SPORH with the thought being if you can run a 15.0 with an on car you should be able to get within 1.0-1.5 of that number when you are by yourself. Yes, not every day is the same and, yes, they do tend to "tweak" the load for those 3 days, but the methods are the methods and it was obvious to me in reading the ruling that Liam was either being a dick or was just a slug. There is no way in hell I would have risked my livelihood for him.

That's hard to believe from such a strong union man.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

That's hard to believe from such a strong union man.

I guess the 30 years that I spent hiding behind the contract served me well.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

I guess the 30 years that I spent hiding behind the contract served me well.

Apparently. Oddly- they haven't had to close the doors yet either. Lol.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Apparently. Oddly- they haven't had to close the doors yet either. Lol.

Next man up.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I would like to hear from the stewards or dedicated teamsters of this site. People like @sandwich @Boston25 @hondo @705red @wide load @PT Stewie @Bubblehead @Mugarolla @Inthegame @BigUnionGuy @Tony Q @Lead Belly @PiedmontSteward

I joined this site to learn and I have learned so much from these people and I have become a better teamster because of all of you. This is something members don't usually see (arbitration) I implore you to share your knowledge on this decision and (or) process.



View attachment 290909

This (almost) same thing happened to Rob A.... the Steward and "vote no"

advocate from PA. Overall job performance. He even had active warning letters

that he had never filed on, to protest them. He then tried to blame his BA

(and Local principal officer) for being involved in a conspiracy with UPS.


Bottom line in both cases.... they weren't as smart as they thought they were.



-Bug-

 

[Over70irregs]

First let me say I'd prefer this doesn't turn into a TDU vs IBT thread if possible, but I know how it goes so just do your best.

This arbitration decision was sent to me by a couple different stewards in my building. I found it very interesting and being that I've only ever really read one other (688 9.5 arbitration) I felt others might find it informative as well.

I'm sure some of you may recognize the name of the member this case is about. I know I sure did. I feel reading this will be very eye opening to some members.

I look forward to hearing from some of you about this decision and hopefully some more information or insight from some of you that hold a elected position in our union.

I don't want to spoil anything right off the bat so I'll give my opinion on it later.

Can’t get it to download = Rookie am I

 

[ManInBrown]

I do think there have definitely been instances where the union will throw a driver to the wolves. Let’s say there’s a driver that mgmt really can’t stand. I think this happened. UPS might say let us sheetcan this drivr and we’ll owe you two drivers down the road that we won’t sheetcan. Anyone think that happens? There’s definitely backroom deals. It seems like the union was so ill prepared to fight in the Liam case, just reading the report.

I worked with drivers in package where they dedicated every waking second trying to fire them. One in particular sticks out. This driver tells me one day, they followed him the entire day from first stop to last stop and never got out of their car to talk to him. On car followed him from stop to stop and just sat in his car. Driver pulled up to a house, on car parked at the house next door. The entire day. And he’s still there. It’s really hard to be fired, and have it stick.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I do think there have definitely been instances where the union will throw a driver to the wolves.

That's a speculative assumption.

UPS might say let us sheetcan this drivr and we’ll owe you two drivers down the road that we won’t sheetcan. Anyone think that happens?

Nope.

There’s definitely backroom deals.

How can you say that with any confidence, unless you were a part of it.

It seems like the union was so ill prepared to fight in the Liam case, just reading the report.

That could be why Howie R lost the Local election.

But, look what they ended up with.... Tim S. (who didn't last)

I worked with drivers in package where they dedicated every waking second trying to fire them. One in particular sticks out. This driver tells me one day, they followed him the entire day from first stop to last stop and never got out of their car to talk to him. On car followed him from stop to stop and just sat in his car. Driver pulled up to a house, on car parked at the house next door. The entire day. And he’s still there. It’s really hard to be fired, and have it stick.

Drivers don't get fired from the company.

They fire themselves....



-Bug-

 

[ManInBrown]

That's a speculative assumption.




Nope.




How can you say that with any confidence, unless you were a part of it.




That could be why Howie R lost the Local election.

But, look what they ended up with.... Tim S. (who didn't last)





Drivers don't get fired from the company.

They fire themselves....



-Bug-

Fair points

 

[Poop Head]

Overall job performance. He even had active warning letters

that he had never filed on, to protest them.

Wow.. lol

 

[Rack em]

First off, what a great thread idea @542thruNthru this should be an eye opener for everyone. I know if I was Liam I would have taken the case to arbitration as well assuming the termination would be overturned due to the fact that there is nothing in our legally binding CBA that establishes any such performance standards and that's ultimately what he was fired for. But it goes to show how unlucky you can get if you get the wrong arbitrator and the union doesn't present a strong enough case.

Liam had a long history that most likely played a part in the arbitrator's decision. I don't know how the arbitrator didn't see the obvious retaliation from the company due to Liam's union activity. Some of the things mentioned in the case for methods are so nit picky and I guarantee no driver does all of the things from the ojs rides. I agree with @542thruNthru that Ups brought in a ringer sup to do the ojs rides and find anything and everything possible to pin against him. The supervisor commented that Liam didn't have a "brisk" pace X amount of times. Well who decided what constitutes what brisk is? Was his age and physical capability taken into effect to determine what a brisk pace would be for him? Oh wait the NLRA prohibits a company from holding any employee to a higher standard of work from another employee. So that would be an unfair labor practice.

The decision to uphold the termination was unjust because the company has zero authority to establish any sort of production standard based on the contract. The arbitrator was more than likely biased or paid off by the company. The fact the company can change "over allowed" at will and make changes to the load on a daily basis are reason enough to see that production standards will never be fair and numbers such as sporh and over allowed should NEVER be allowed to be brought up during any disciplinary process.

Luckily the only way to establish a certain sporh would be to have at least a 3 day ride. We have article 37 to prevent a 3 day ride from happening. One ride sure, but any more, you file a grievance, and no supervisor can get on car until the grievance is heard. Our local has taken the stance that the company can have 1 annual ride and 1 "methods" ride per year, any more than that and it is deemed over supervision and harassment. Our local will not allow 3 day ojs rides to happen for the very reason that they know the company will try to establish a production standard.

 

[Misthios]

Who could forget Liam.


Gets elected BA, stages a wildcat strike at UPS, and get's 250 drivers fired.

Did that really happen?