Pro-Gun / Hunting Thread

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therodog

Guest
Tuesday, September 20, 2005 :: infoZine Staff :: page views
Gun Groups Upset by Post-Katrina Firearm Confiscations
By Isaac Wolf - Gun rights groups are pointing to Hurricane Katrina as the best example since the 1992 Los Angeles riots of the need for civilians to carry firearms. They say that lawlessness and looting could be prevented by responsibly armed citizens.


Washington, D.C. - Scripps Howard Foundation Wire - infoZine - Meanwhile, the gun rights advocates say they are deeply troubled by the decision, made by New Orleans Police Superintendent Edwin Compass, to confiscate civilian firearms during the citywide evacuation earlier this month.

Kelly Hobbs, a National Rifle Association spokeswoman, said the group had reports from New Orleans that police had gone to homes of people who had recently purchased guns to confiscate them.

"It's really irresponsible for the authorities to try to confiscate guns from law-abiding individuals," said Andrew A. Arulanandam, also an NRA spokesman. He said officials should instead be working to locate and disarm criminals.

Peter S. Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which supports laws regulating and limiting gun ownership, criticized the NRA and other gun-rights' groups as trying to use a natural catastrophe for political gain.

He said that Katrina - and its effect of intensifying focus on preparing for manmade and natural disasters - will not cause Americans to warm up to guns. "That has already happened," he said. "9/11 made people think 'I have to defend myself.' "

Hamm said the public viewed gun ownership as largely positive in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks but that perceptions of gun ownership following Katrina were mixed. Stories of guns being used in self defense will balance against tales of "the guys who had guns and were terrorizing people in the convention center" and reports of thieves pilfering guns from pawn shops, Hamm said.

"In sum, it will be a wash," Hamm said.

Surveys show that public support for gun control has eroded over the last 15 years. In 1990, a Gallup poll found that 78 percent of Americans wanted the laws to be more strict. By October 2004, that number was down to 54 percent.

Some retailers, responding to the threat of looting and the needs of local law enforcement officials, have temporarily discontinued selling guns.

Wal-Mart stopped selling firearms at 40 stores in the affected areas and has changed the way it sells guns at other stores by locking them in vaults, said spokeswoman Karen A. Burk.

Burk would not confirm press reports that looters stole Wal-Mart guns immediately after Katrina struck. "We're trying to work with local authorities to do the right things," she said, adding that there is no timeline for resuming gun sales at the 40 stores.

Burk said that firearm security isn't an issue for Wal-Mart. "Firearms are kept behind glass in general," she said. "We keep them safe."

The Gun Owners of America was disappointed with Wal-Mart's decision. "In a time of crisis when people say they most need self protection, Wal-Mart says, 'We're not going to do it,' " said GOA spokesman Erich M. Pratt.

Despite the stolen firearms, Pratt said that gun retailers should not be called on to beef up security. "It's not going to keep firearms out of the bad guys' hands - they're still going to get them," he said.

The GOA, which has video on its Web site of an ABC news story that says soldiers confiscated guns from homeowners, considers Katrina a "critical juncture" in the public debate about gun control. "If nothing happens from these confiscations, that would set a horrible precedent - suspending constitutional rights under a calamity," Pratt said.

New Orleans and Louisiana officials could not be reached for comment.

(Message edited by therodog on September 20, 2005)
 
T

therodog

Guest
TURNING TRAGEDY
INTO TRAVESTY

Imagine yourself marooned in this hellish nightmare of helplessness:

Hurricane Katrina has shredded your hometown down to bare foundations.

You have no power. No refrigeration. No A/C. No running water.

Phone lines are down, cell towers out. You can`t call anyone. No one can call you. 9-1-1 is MIA. Police are nowhere around. Bands of armed looters, thugs and rapists roam the streets with hard eyes and hungry looks.

Every outbound road and bridge is impassable. Leaving is impossible. But staying is unimaginable. Because for tonight, anyway, living has been reduced to its barest, bleakest essentials: Fresh water, some food and survival against those who would take your home, your wife, your child or your life.

When darkness falls, you huddle in the sweltering, pitch-black night--your lanterns and flashlights extinguished to save batteries and fuel, your windows and doors wide open, in hopes of a cooling whiff of fresh air.

And there, you listen and look out on a civilization utterly transformed, where not a single streetlight burns, no car passes and the only sounds are the drone of a few generators, occasional shouts and gunshots in the dark.

Amid the chaos, you and a few neighbors who own guns have stepped forward--as civic-minded citizens have done since civilization was born--to protect those who can`t protect themselves or their property.

You help where you can. Where you can`t, you hold out and pray.

By the time authorities finally arrive a week later, they set about dismantling the one levee that stands between utter anarchy and you and your family- the Second Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms--by vowing to confiscate your firearms and those of your neighbors.

This is New Orleans, September 2005: Where the most fundamental human freedom is all that stands between humanity and inhumanity, savagery and safety--and where authorities have vowed to raze that lifesaving safeguard.-----

BY MARSHALL LEWIN

The situation we`re seeing in New Orleans represents a complete vindication of everything we`ve been saying in defense of the Second Amendment," said NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre.

"All throughout history, what you have in the aftermath of disasters like Katrina is mayhem, looting, robbing, raping and killing by the evildoers, along with a complete breakdown of government`s ability to protect people from those who would do them harm," LaPierre said. "That`s exactly what the Right to Keep and Bear Arms was intended to address. The Second Amendment is the underpinning of citizens` efforts to stay alive."

Yet according to The New York Times and other media outlets, New Orleans authorities began seizing firearms from lawful citizens precisely when they needed them the most.

"No one will be able to be armed," said New Orleans Superintendent of Police P. Edwin Compass. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." All firearms--lawfully owned or not-- would be seized, he said.

Ironically, Compass added, "there`s nothing more important than the preservation of human life"-- ignoring the reality that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms was the only protection citizens had against violent predators roaming New Orleans.

"When law enforcement isn`t available, Americans turn to the one right that protects all the others--the Right to Keep and Bear Arms," LaPierre said. "If authorities are denying the Second Amendment rights of lawful citizens- especially during a crisis like this--those authorities should be condemned and their actions immediately reversed."

NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox addressed the legal, tactical dimensions of any firearm confiscations in New Orleans. Louisiana state law does allow the chief law enforcement officer to "regulate possession" of firearms during declared emergencies, Cox noted, "but `regulate` doesn`t mean confiscate," he said.

"Armed gangs of from eight to 15 young men are riding around in pickup trucks, looting and raping."

"We`re exploring every legal option available to protect the rights of lawful people in New Orleans," Cox added, "and we`re immediately taking steps to overturn laws that allow that kind of oppression in every state where they exist." "This isn`t just about New Orleans, Mississippi or the Gulf Coast," added LaPierre. "It`s about all of our rights as Americans and, for that matter, as human beings, to defend ourselves from harm when no one else can or will. "the lesson of New Orleans is that citizens must be able to rely on their own ability to survive. The answer once and for all to politicians who say Americans don`t need the Second Amendment, government will protect you, the answer forevermore is New Orleans."


For many New Orleans residents, a firearm is all that stands between them and marauding bands of thugs. Now the police are intent on disarming the city`s law-abiding, leaving them defenseless and at the mercy of criminals.



Descent into Mayhem

Withone of the highest murder rates in the United States, New Orleans has long been one of the roughest towns around. Katrina didn`t help.

Within hours of the hurricane`s landfall on the Gulf Coast, looters had begun breaking into stores and homes. But what the media were quick to characterize as a simple search for water, food and the essentials of survival quickly degenerated into rampant theft , rape, vandalism and violence.

Looters ran down a state police truck filled with food. Carjackers seized the bus from the Covenant Home nursing facility, then gangs of people drove by the nursing home, shouting, "Get out!" at residents-- who did.

The home`s executive director, Peggy Hoffman, said, "We had enough food for 10 days. Now we`ll have to equip our department heads with guns and teach them how to shoot." Louisiana State Police spokeswoman Sgt. Cathy Flinchum said criminals were filing fake emergency reports to draw police away from places where they planned to commit crimes.

One criminal with a long arrest record was charged with raping a 13-year-old mentally handicapped girl from New Orleans at an Assembly of God campground.

A police officer was murdered.

A rescue helicopter was attacked.

Police killed at least four people who had assaulted u.s. Army Corps of Engineers contractors who were crossing a bridge to try to close a gap in the 17th Street Canal.

Captain Jeff Winn of the New Orleans Police swat team said, "Armed gangs of from eight to 15 young men are riding around in pickup trucks, looting and raping." Policeman Charles Hoffacker, whose beat includes Bourbon Street, said that at times, "it was like Mogadishu."

Within a week, for whatever reason, hundreds of New Orleans police had gone awol, and two--including the department`s spokesman--had committed suicide.

According to Sgt. Stephen Villere, night-patrol commander for the French Quarter, "It felt like a year, not a week."

The "Hue and Cry" that Keeps the Peace

Faced with this total breakdown in civil order, residents throughout the Gulf Coast quickly took steps to protect property, life and limb.

In Gulfport, Miss., one of the hurricane`s hardest-hit areas, after police reported that looters had completely cleaned out a nearby strip mall, resident Billy Bova and his neighbor took down the plywood covering their windows, and painted signs: "My best friends are Smith & Wesson," and "Owner home and will kill." Standing guard one night, Bova reported seeing several young men roaming the neighborhood carrying backpacks after curfew. "We pointed our Mag-Lites at them, and they saw our shotguns and rifle, and they took off running."

In effect, in the aftermath of Katrina, in much of Louisiana and Mississippi, peaceable armed citizens like Bova and his neighbor kept the peace as well as peace of mind.

9-1-1 didn`t exist, and police who were there advised citizens that they wouldn`t be around to answer any calls for help.

This real-life experience mirrors National Science Foundation funded research in the wake of Hurricane Andrew`s devastation of South Florida in 1993. Interviewing residents, researchers found that, "those who did have firearms gained a sense of security from them, even when they were never confronted with an intruder or any other situation where the fi rearms were actually needed." "We`ve got a lot of single mothers with kids in the neighborhood," Bova said, "so we`d walk through at dusk, make sure everyone was safe, and let them know that we`d be around. with no air conditioning, everybody`s doors and windows were open. So we said, `If you have any trouble, just scream. We`ll hear you.`" In the Garden District of New Orleans, residents John Carolan and Charlie Hackett armed themselves with a pistol and shotgun to deter looters. At one point, three men appeared at Carolan`s home, showed him a machete and asked him about his generator. Carolan showed them his pistol. they didn`t pursue things further.

In the city`s French Quarter, resident Joe Campiere tried for seven days before he finally reached police through 9-1-1. the three Texas officers who arrived on horseback after that were the first Campiere had seen since the hurricane. "I tell you, I`ve been terrified," he told the Christian Science Monitor, a holstered pistol at his side.

Across the Mississippi from the French Quarter, in the historic neighborhood of Algiers Point, after a resident was carjacked on the day after Katrina struck, several neighbors worked together to protect their homes. they armed themselves and patrolled the streets by day, and at night they took turns standing guard over their part of the lawless city.

It worked: Looters left , presumably to look for easier pickings.

Resident Alexandra Boza posted a sign on her front porch reading, "Pit Bull Will Attack. We Are Here and Have Gun and Will Shoot." "I`m a part of the militia," she said, perhaps not realizing that her statement was true in the most accurate, historical sense of the Second Amendment.

Police suddenly body-slammed the elderly woman into her kitchen wall, sending dishes and a trashcan flying. Then they confiscated the gun and dragged her out of her home.


As Thomas Paine put it in 1775, "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." Tragically, horrid mischief still awaited the besieged residents of the Gulf.

Dispossessing Victims, Disarming the Defenseless

It was a week after Katrina struck before many New Orleans residents saw any of the thousands of federal, state and local emergency officials-- from the California Highway Patrol to the NYPD, the 82nd Airborne to the National Guard--who`d been dispatched to help them.

First those forces were focused on search and rescue. then they aimed at deterring and detaining looters.

Finally they were detailed, under Mayor Ray Nagin`s order, to evacuate the Big Easy--willingly or not.

Then, 11 days after Katrina hit, local police began confiscating firearms from civilians in preparation for a forced evacuation of the last holdouts.

"We are going to take all the weapons," Deputy Police Chief Warren Riley told the Associated Press.

But many residents didn`t want to leave, for fear of losing their pets, their possessions or their homes.

Fox News cameras caught one violent confiscation on tape. Police entered the residence of an elderly woman, Patricia Konie, demanding evacuation. "I don`t want you in here, period," she said, pointing out her street was dry, she had adequate food and water, and if looters came, she had a gun.

When the police asked to see her gun, she showed them a small revolver, which she carefully held safely in her palm--no hand on the grip or finger on the trigger.

Police suddenly body-slammed the elderly woman into her kitchen wall, sending dishes and a trashcan flying.

Then they confiscated the gun and dragged her out of her home, dazed and staggering, for processing.

New Orleans attorney Ashton O`Dwyer, whose house was intact and who had plenty of food and water, also tried to resist, as shown in a CNN.com segment. "Let them be warned," he said. "they try to come to my house, they try to evict me, they try to take my guns, there will be gunfire." Yet while authorities sought to disarm ordinary citizens in New Orleans, they had no plans to disarm private security guards hired to protect businesses, the wealthy and connected. Which means that, as is so often the case throughout history, freedom and safety are reserved for the well-to-do- while ordinary citizens most in need of protection are left with little more than their prayers and pleas for mercy.

Bova, the Gulfport resident quoted earlier, brought the situation into the starkest focus. When I told him of New Orleans` policy of disarming honest citizens, he was speechless at first, for he hadn`t heard the news. then he grew livid.

"These are people who have lost everything," he said. "their kids, their homes, their life savings, all their possessions. All that`s left is that they`re still alive. You mean to tell me, after losing all that, politicians want to take away their guns--the one thing that can keep them alive? "Who do they think they are?" he shouted. "these people ought to be indicted and put in jail!" "For generations, anti-gun politicians have claimed that honest citizens don`t need firearms because the police or the government will always be there to protect you," said NRA`s LaPierre. "that`s nonsense, it`s naive, it has never played out that way in history, and New Orleans proves it once and for all.

"Authorities are trying to do what the looters and criminals could not: disarm the law-abiding citizens of New Orleans trying to protect their homes and families," he said.

"The NRA will not stand idly by while guns are confiscated from law-abiding people who`re trying to defend themselves." NRA-ILA chief Cox agreed.

"We`re going to do what it takes to ensure this never happens again," Cox said. "First, we`re going to go into every state that has laws allowing authorities to confiscate firearms from lawful people during a state of emergency, and we`re going to change those laws. Second, we`re going to get legislation on Capitol Hill to amend the federal disaster laws, so that governments never have the authority to confiscate firearms from peaceable citizens--whether under a state of emergency or not.

And third, we`re going to go to court to defend the Second Amendment rights of people whose firearms have been confiscated, and we`re going to get those firearms back," Cox said. "The NRA will not allow this travesty to stand."

EDITOR`S NOTE:

With Gulf Coast telecommunications systems non-functional in the wake of Katrina, parts of this story were drawn from published reports from a variety of sources, including the Washington Post, New York Times, Newsweek, Associated Press, wwltv.com, St. Louis Post- Dispatch, Boston Globe, kthv.com, London Daily Telegraph, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, Christian Science Monitor, Austin American- Statesman, FoxNews.com and CNN.com.


Posted: 9/20/2005














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Standing Guard

Surrendering Rights In San Francisco?





The Reality of "Workplace Homicides"

The Truth About "Workplace Homicides"

What American Voters Believe About
Firearm Owners' Rights And Hunting




Katrina chaos boosts case for 2nd Amendment

Gun Groups Upset By Post-Katrina Confiscations

"Big Easy" Hard On Gun Rights






Virtually all scholars who have studied the issue have concluded that the Framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights considered the right to arms to be an individual right. Read More
 
T

therodog

Guest
NRA FILES SUIT TO STOP
FIREARM SEIZURES IN NEW ORLEANS

Thursday, September 22, 2005


(Fairfax, VA) - Today, the National Rifle Association (NRA) filed a motion in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana seeking a temporary restraining order to block authorities from confiscating law-abiding citizens firearms in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.



New Orleans is the first city in the United States to forcibly disarm peaceable law-abiding citizens and it must be the last. Victims are dealing with a complete breakdown of government. At a time when 911 is non-operational and law enforcement cannot respond immediately to calls for help, people have only the Second Amendment to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property, said NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre.



The NRA stands with law-abiding Americans, who agree that at their most vulnerable moment, their right to defend themselves and their families should not be taken away, said Chris W. Cox, NRAs chief lobbyist.



According to The New York Times, the New Orleans superintendent of police directed that no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to have guns and that only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons. ABC News quoted New Orleans deputy police chief, saying, No one will be able to be armed. We are going to take all the weapons.



The NRA is determined to stop this blatant abuse of power by local politicians. It is disgraceful that any government official would further endanger the lives of innocent victims by issuing this ridiculous order. We are very grateful to the many rank and file police officers who have come forward and assisted NRA in exposing these violations of constitutional freedoms. We are also pleased that the Second Amendment Foundation is joining us in this effort, added Cox.



The actions of the New Orleans government have destroyed the one levee that stands between law-abiding citizens and anarchy - the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. The NRA will not rest until this injustice is resolved, concluded LaPierre.

--nra--



Established in 1871, the National Rifle Association is Americas oldest civil rights and sportsmen's group. Four million members strong, NRA continues its mission to uphold Second Amendment rights and to advocate enforcement of existing laws against violent offenders to reduce crime. The Association remains the nation's leader in firearm education and training for law-abiding gun owners, law enforcement and the armed services
 
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dannyboy

Guest
Some alarming statistics!

Doctors


1. The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000

2. Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000

3. Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%

Statistics courtesy of the U.S.Dept of Health & Human Services
*********************************************************

Guns:

1. The number of gun owners in the U.S. is
80,000,000 (yes that's 80 million)

2. The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is
1,500

3. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

Statistics courtesy of the FBI


**********************************************************


So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more
dangerous than gun owners.

**********************************************************

Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.


**********************************************************

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE
DOCTOR.


***********************************************************
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban
doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics
on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical
attention. Then we would be in real trouble.
 
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susiedriver

Guest
Talk about a useless set of 'facts'!

How many people did doctors kill intentionally?

How many people died of intentional gun inflicted injuries?

Also, to correct your earlier post, they were/are confiscating legal guns from legal gun owners in NOLA.

idiot.
 
D

dannyboy

Guest
You know suuuie, if you would take the time to read the posts instead of your sausage links, you would have seen that what I posted was an opinion of what the understanding was at that time.

Now my question is, how do the police know who has what gun to come by and get? Could it be that registering your gun with the police is now what they are using to take the guns from the legal owners?

Maybe that is why the NRA is fighting tooth and nail against the gun hating nazi's like yourself?

Statistics courtesy of the FBI Statistics courtesy of the U.S.Dept of Health & Human Services Talk about a useless set of 'facts'!

Well I will side with the people that assembled the useless facts, sorry.

As for your parting shot, a wise man once said never argue with a fool, those watching might not be able to tell the difference.

Another wise man said that liberals when confronted with the truth, are always reduced to name calling instead of honest exchange of information.

So before anyone reading these threads gets the wrong idea who the fool is, I will leave you alone in your discussions.

Best

d
 
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susiedriver

Guest
dboy said:
You know suuuie, if you would take the time to read the posts instead of your sausage links, you would have seen that what I posted was an opinion of what the understanding was at that time.

suuuie? sausage links? The understanding 'at the time' was that firearms were be confiscated from legal owners. You disputed that.

dBoy:
Maybe that is why the NRA is fighting tooth and nail against the gun hating nazi's like yourself?

Gun hating and responsible gun ownership are not two sides of the same coin. Being against certain kinds of weapons for civilian use doesn't make one a nazi. You are on a slippery slope, my provincial friend.

dBoy:
Statistics courtesy of the FBI Statistics courtesy of the U.S.Dept of Health & Human Services Talk about a useless set of 'facts'!

Using those facts in a capricious manner does, in fact, make them useless.[see 'figures lie, liars figure' post from awhile back]

A cut and paste from a pro gun site certainly doesn't qualify as original thinking, in fact it pretty much confirms to me that the poster is incapable of an original thought at all, but marches to someone elses drumbeat, kinda like a nazi.


Idiot.
 
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therodog

Guest
SUZIZOO, bush is pro gun, and therefore, not to much of an asshloe , and if Kerry had his way, the crime rate would be sky-high because of his very anti-gun agenda he tried hiding from the American public. You try and run a country, you cant even read the posts here correctly...Your not allowed in the pro-gun thread anymore..
----------------------------------------------

NRA-ILA Grassroots Alert Vol. 12, No. 38 9/23/05

MAJOR VICTORY FOR FIREARMS OWNERS
AND FREEDOM IN LOUISIANA

On Thursday, NRA filed a motion in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana seeking a temporary restraining order to block authorities from confiscating law-abiding citizens' firearms in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Today, we are happy to report, the Court sided with NRA and issued a restraining order to bar further gun confiscations from peaceable, law-abiding victims of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

Federal Judge Jay Zainey granted NRA's motion for an indefinite temporary restraining order and ordered those in power to cease and desist gun seizures. The authorities were also ordered to return guns seized by them or their agents to anyone "...who lawfully possessed them, upon presentation of identification and execution of a receipt therefore."

Commenting on the ruling, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said, "This is a significant victory for freedom and for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. The court's ruling is instant relief for the victims who now have an effective means of defending themselves from the robbers and rapists that seek to further exploit the remnants of their shattered lives."

Joining LaPierre in hailing the U.S. District Court decision was NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox. "This is an important victory. But the battle is not over. The NRA will remedy state emergency statutes in all 50 states, if needed, to ensure that this injustice does not happen again."

The controversy erupted when The New York Times reported that the New Orleans superintendent of police directed that no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to have guns and that "only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons." ABC News quoted New Orleans' deputy police chief, saying, "No one will be able to be armed. We are going to take all the weapons."

NRA also pledges that it will continue its work to ensure that every single firearm arbitrarily and unlawfully seized under this directive is returned to its rightful law-abiding owner.

Although this is great victory, we still need to hear from members who have been a victim of this gun confiscation initiative. If you have personally had a gun confiscated in Louisiana since Hurricane Katrina hit, please call (888) 414-6333. Be prepared to leave only your name and immediate contact information so we can get back to you. Once again, we are seeking contact information from actual victims of gun confiscation in Louisiana only.

For additional information, please visit www.NRAILA.org

CLARIFICATION OF S. 397 AMENDMENTS

Recently, there has been a new wave of erroneous overstatements concerning two amendments to S. 397--The "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act." While we have provided detailed information as to the nature of these measures in past editions of the Grassroots Alert, factual information regarding their impact bears repeating.

The first measure, by Senator Herb Kohl (D-Wisc.), requires federally licensed dealers to provide a "secure gun storage or safety device" with the sale/transfer of every handgun (it does not apply to long guns). The measure, which passed by a vote of 70-30, does not require gun owners to use the device, does not apply to private transfers, and does not create any new civil liability for gun owners who choose not to use these storage devices. Virtually all new handguns today are sold with some type of secure storage or safety device. The amendment has no significant impact on current law.

The second measure--an amendment by Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)--passed by a margin of 87-11, and was offered this year (as it was in 2004) in a successful attempt to defeat Senator Edward Kennedy's "armor piercing" ammunition amendment that would have banned all centerfire rifle ammunition. By providing an alternative to Senator Kennedy's amendment, pro-gun senators were able to marshal the votes to defeat the Kennedy amendment.

The amendment restates the existing prohibition on manufacture, or sale by manufacturers, of "armor piercing ammunition," except for government use, for export, or for use in testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. This law has been in effect for nearly two decades. It increases the mandatory minimum sentence for the use of "armor piercing ammunition" in a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime. Use of armor piercing ammunition in a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime is already a federal offense punishable by five years in prison. The amendment increases the penalty to 15 years, and authorizes the death penalty if the ammunition is used in a murder. It also directs the Attorney General to conduct a study "to determine whether a uniform standard for the testing of projectiles against Body Armor is feasible." In fact, we know such a standard is "feasible" because the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) has been testing projectiles against body armor since the early 1970s, and has regularly written and updated the standards for testing projectiles against body armor. NIJ's research has saved lives by improving the design and manufacture of body armor.

The amendment does not give the Attorney General (or anyone else) any new authority to ban ammunition, nor does it change the definition of "armor piercing ammunition." Under current law, ammunition is only "armor piercing" if it has a bullet that "may be used in a handgun" and that is made entirely from certain hard metals such as tungsten, steel, bronze or depleted uranium; or if the bullet is "designed and intended for use in a handgun" and has a jacket that weighs more than 25% of the weight of the projectile. The current definition has been in place for more than 12 years.

And finally, the amendment does not create any kind of new ammunition ban. The only ammunition that is banned as "armor piercing" is ammunition that fits the current definition, and neither the amendment nor the study would change the definition.

S. 397, as passed by the Senate, represents our best opportunity to finally enact into law a prohibition on these reckless lawsuits. It is critical that you once again contact your U.S. Representative's Capitol Hill office in Washington, D.C., and urge him/her to pass S. 397 as passed by the Senate!

You can find contact information for your elected officials by using the "Write Your Representatives" tool at www.NRAILA.org. Or you can call your U.S. Representative at (202) 225-3121.

We can and will achieve our mutual goal of finally enacting this common sense law, but only with your continued assistance. Please help us finish the job once and for all by contacting your U.S. Representative in Washington and urging him/her to support the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act" as passed by the Senate.

NRA GRASSROOTS-ELECTION WORKSHOPS

Virginia is one of only two states holding elections this year, and in preparation for the November 8, election, NRA-ILA is hosting a FREE Grassroots-Election Workshop tomorrow in Virginia Beach (it was necessary for us to cancel the three additional workshops we had previously scheduled in other Virginia cities).

At the Workshop, you will hear from pro-freedom candidates and their staff, NRA-ILA representatives, and NRA-ILA Election Volunteer Coordinators (EVCs) on what you can do locally to propel pro-gun candidates to victory on Election Day--November 8, 2005.

The meeting will also provide a venue for lawmakers, candidates, and their staffs to reach out to NRA members and explain their positions on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
 
O

ok2bclever

Guest
"gun hating nazi's"

"your not allowed"

Nazi's certainly didn't hate guns, except those used by Americans to stop them.

It's statements like this from gun nuts screaming about freedom that makes me think they don't deserve to own guns.

Because unfortunately, their definition of freedom is everything done their way, period, which is what makes me agree I need to own guns and that there needs to be responsible limits and accounting for the ability of some people have guns.
 
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dannyboy

Guest
Suuuie

Nazi's did hate guns, in the hand of every one else but themselves. that is why when they over ran an area one of the first stops were the court houses of france and other countries to see who owned what weapon. Then a quick trip to the house and just shoot anyone who does not give it up. REad your history.

"A cut and paste from a pro gun site certainly doesn't qualify as original thinking, in fact it pretty much confirms to me that the poster is incapable of an original thought at all, but marches to someone elses drumbeat, kinda like a nazi. "

I hate to post what every other poster here already has noticed, posted by the undisputed king of links and clip and post.

God you are funny!

Keep on yelling the sky is falling, but dont feel bad when no one listens.

d
 
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over9five

Guest
One of the first things that Adolf Hitler did when he came to power was to ban the private ownership of guns.
I wonder why?
 
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susiedriver

Guest
dBoy,

Your understanding of history leaves a bit to be desired. Try to get your information from a real history book, instead of an NRA distilled version of history.
 
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wkmac

Guest
You know, I've never given any thought about France, WW2 and gun control until I saw this most recent verbal exchange here. I am someone who strongly believes that the individual when acting responsible and without effect on other innocent parties should be allowed the right to own whatever means that person believes they need. In this day and age of crazed terrorists one might have an argument for caring an HK MP5 or even wearing a NBC suit that protects from nuclear, biological or chemical attack in certain geographical areas and if the person in no way infringes on me I really don't care what they wear or carry. I also believe we are on the edge of new weaponery such as Scalar technology or sound weapons along with lasars that will render the typical firearm or projectile firing weapon almost obsolete at some point in the not to distant future but that's another thread for another website.

However, I must admit the statement that France had their own version of the US gun ownership forms we all sign when purchasing guns here in America and that the Nazi's went and got aka the movie Red Dawn scenario seemed far fetched to me. BTW, post Soviet Union officials have admitted had there been a Red Dawn type invasion this measure of identifying US gun owners and rounding up guns would have happened although not in the quick timeframe it was presented in Red Dawn so the scenario in the movie was based on an element of some fact. This thinking really does make sense for an invading force trying to limit future resistance once control is gained.

Getting back to our French friends I decided to just go out and look on the web for a search of French gun control history as it pertains to WW2 and nothing I found at this point would help verify Dboy's point. Not saying NRA Dboy is wrong and Democratic Underground Susie Q is right, I've just not found it yet. However I did find an interesting op-ed piece about Gun Control, the Weimar Republic and the rise to power of Hilter which proved some interesting reading IMO. One might very well suggest instead of blaming France and it's gun control laws for Hilter we might first point that finger at Germany and the Weimar Republic.

Sorry Susie but the source is National Review, not my favorite either if that means anything but at least it's not from the NRA.
 
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ok2bclever

Guest
"and if the person in no way infringes on me"

That becomes the crux for me as in my experience, the more paranoid the gun nut the more their real problem is they are not the ones who decide what others are allowed to do, say, read and believe.

As a gun ownere I am certainly not for disarming the public, but I sure don't have a problem with attempting to screen out the mentally strange.
 
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dannyboy

Guest
How about history from the people that were there and made the history? I dont know as it gets any better than first hand accounting of what went on.

But like I said, not a good idea to argue with a fool lest someone watching might not be able to tell who is the fool.

MAC

It's out there. And it is in the history books of the past. Funny thing about history, it keeps getting re-written as time goes on. That is why those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

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susiedriver

Guest
wkmac,

I find almost everything that dboy posts to be suspect, so I look into it. The whole Nazi/French gun control crap is just that, crap. I dont care what anecdotal evidence he has, facts do not bear it out.

I have no problem with firearm ownership. I recommend it. In dont think any ordinary citizen should own a military weapon, however. I dont think that is a guarantee under the second amendment.

I find it amazing that dboy, ro and .5 and others continue to spout out their blind allegiance to Bushco, while the Bill Of Rights is being taken away from them right before their eyes.

For the first time in the history of this great nation the leaders of the House, Senate and White House being investigated for criminal activities. Coincidently, they are all Republicans.

As dear leader said, "Fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again.
 
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susiedriver

Guest
dBoy,

You said:


"How about history from the people that were there and made the history? I dont know as it gets any better than first hand accounting of what went on."

Are you saying you got your information from Nazis you personally know?
 
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dannyboy

Guest
Figured it out for yourself. So there is hope yet?

Nothing like learing history from the people that made the history. IT would seem that there are many that would seek to revise history for what ever reason.

Like the stat that there were more german servicemen killed and died in the three years after the war than were killed on the western front during the entire war. That is not something that you read in todays history books.

OR that during the rebuilding of france, forced labor was part of the agreement between the allies. The US sent 220,000 captive "enemy combatants" that were kept in DEF camps to france for the rebuild, and they promptly sent back 30,000+ because they were too old, women and children. You ever read about that in history books?

My father in law was in the service also, and he said it best. The history of war is written by the winner. As such, that history by its very nature, is one sided and sanatized.

And then when people like you attempt to put spins on current events to produce a history that you want, well you can see where the problem lies.

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ok2bclever

Guest
So your insightful information is from the mouth of old nazis and that makes it the truth?

You keep getting scarier danny.

Next your going to say your father-in-law ia an old italian fascist so you have an independent confirmation source.

Unlike these other claims, the one by your father in law about the winners writing history while not an original thought has always been true.
 
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