Pro-Gun / Hunting Thread

T

therodog

Guest
Guns are dangerous. But myths are dangerous, too. Myths about guns are very dangerous, because they lead to bad laws. And bad laws kill people.

"Don't tell me this bill will not make a difference," said President Clinton, who signed the Brady Bill into law.

Sorry. Even the federal government can't say it has made a difference. The Centers for Disease Control did an extensive review of various types of gun control: waiting periods, registration and licensing, and bans on certain firearms. It found that the idea that gun control laws have reduced violent crime is simply a myth.

I wanted to know why the laws weren't working, so I asked the experts. "I'm not going in the store to buy no gun," said one maximum-security inmate in New Jersey. "So, I could care less if they had a background check or not."

"There's guns everywhere," said another inmate. "If you got money, you can get a gun."


Talking to prisoners about guns emphasizes a few key lessons. First, criminals don't obey the law. (That's why we call them "criminals.") Second, no law can repeal the law of supply and demand. If there's money to be made selling something, someone will sell it.

A study funded by the Department of Justice confirmed what the prisoners said. Criminals buy their guns illegally and easily. The study found that what felons fear most is not the police or the prison system, but their fellow citizens, who might be armed. One inmate told me, "When you gonna rob somebody you don't know, it makes it harder because you don't know what to expect out of them."

What if it were legal in America for adults to carry concealed weapons? I put that question to gun-control advocate Rev. Al Sharpton. His eyes opened wide, and he said, "We'd be living in a state of terror!"

In fact, it was a trick question. Most states now have "right to carry" laws. And their people are not living in a state of terror. Not one of those states reported an upsurge in crime.

Why? Because guns are used more than twice as often defensively as criminally. When armed men broke into Susan Gonzalez' house and shot her, she grabbed her husband's gun and started firing. "I figured if I could shoot one of them, even if we both died, someone would know who had been in my home." She killed one of the intruders. She lived. Studies on defensive use of guns find this kind of thing happens at least 700,000 times a year.

And there's another myth, with a special risk of its own. The myth has it that the Supreme Court, in a case called United States v. Miller, interpreted the Second Amendment -- "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" -- as conferring a special privilege on the National Guard, and not as affirming an individual right. In fact, what the court held is only that the right to bear arms doesn't mean Congress can't prohibit certain kinds of guns that aren't necessary for the common defense. Interestingly, federal law still says every able-bodied American man from 17 to 44 is a member of the United States militia.

What's the special risk? As Alex Kozinski, a federal appeals judge and an immigrant from Eastern Europe, warned in 2003, "the simple truth -- born of experience -- is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people."

"The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do," Judge Kozinski noted. "But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once."
 
W

wkmac

Guest
I saw a story the other day that rapes and murders had gone down in the US. Can't remember by how much but that they had gone down. The majority of murders are ones where the victim and assailant knew one another and generally revolved around some personal dispute between them.

Although I'm very supportive of the right of an individual to have and own a firearm or firearms and even an automatic weapon if they so choose I'm not so sure this or the carrying of weapons is the reason for this drop. What I do think is a factor is that like robbing a bank, it's very hard to "get away with murder" these days especially if it involves a gun. Guns are just to traceble these days and forensic science has gotten very good.

Most murders are passion of the moment when victim and assailant know one another and I do think the reality of the simple fact that murders via firearms generally end in convictions and jail and/or death sentence weighs in this equation. This is where murder by other means comes into play.

As for carrying a firearm, I'm not opposed to that at all but do I personally do it? Nope. I've always felt by not carrying one I would use my brain and just totally avoid places and scenarios where one might be needed. However, don't force your way into my home as I have no problem dusting your sorry arse from the face of the earth because in the end I hate everyone on this sorry planet except myself and my family!

That said however, there is also a general truth to everyone carrying a firearm on their side as "a gun toting society is a polite society!"

I wonder if UPS management would be as abusive at times if all the drivers carried guns? Then again if management toted guns at work we would be more productive.
 
S

susiedriver

Guest
"The only category of violent crime in which the number of incidents rose was forcible rapes -- to 94,635 in 2004 from 93,883 in 2003, an increase of 0.8 percent. But accounting for an increase in population, the rate of forcible rapes dropped 0.2 percent."

CNN, three days ago
 
W

wkmac

Guest
suzi,
Now that I think about it I do believe you are right about rapes. It was only murder that was down but then again the specific point of my post was about murder and guns only to begin with.

Like murder, forensic science has come a long way with DNA testing and all. Forensic science not only is proving helpful in convicting rapists but it is also helping to clear someone charged with rape when the claim was false in the first place. I also believe that many rapes in the past went unreported because it was a she said/he said kinda deal and then the victim got run through the mud in order to clear the rapist. Now with DNA you can prove that the act happened but under what pretext and circumstances would be the issue. In the case of a total stranger it likely pretty clear cut to conviction but if it's a date rape kinda deal and there is no other physical marks boy now that gets tough. As a father of 3 daughters I've told them the importance of how they conduct themselves in public and who they associate with is and always will be very important. Choose those closest to you very wisely and keep a sharp eye for any trouble and never lead on in any way. Men also have to start doing a must better job of not being such pigs either as we all are. I say that in jest but it does ring true also.
 
S

susiedriver

Guest
mac,

Do a little research on Brazil & firearms, see what you come up with.

The excellent book, "Freakanomics" makes a correlation between legalized abortion and the crime rate...check it out.
 
T

therodog

Guest
WASHINGTON - Congress gave the gun lobby its top legislative priority Thursday, passing a bill that would protect the firearms industry from massive lawsuits brought by crime victims. The White House says President Bush will sign it into law.

The House voted 283-144 to send the bill to the president after supporters, led by the National Rifle Association, proclaimed it vital to protect the industry from being bankrupted by huge jury awards. Opponents, waging a tough battle against growing public support for the legislation, called it proof of the gun lobbyfs power over the Republican-controlled Congress.

Under the measure, about 20 pending lawsuits by local governments against the industry would be dismissed. The Senate passed the bill in July.

Story continues below
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
advertisement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The billfs passage was the NRAfs top legislative priority and would give Bush and his Republican allies on Capitol Hill a rare victory at a time when some top GOP leaders are under indictment or investigation.

gLawsuits seeking to hold the firearms industry responsible for the criminal and unlawful use of its products are brazen attempts to accomplish through litigation what has not been achieved by legislation and the democratic process,h House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., told his colleagues.


Click for related content
Live Vote: Is lawsuit bill fair?



Katrina momentum
Propelled by GOP election gains and the incidents of lawlessness associated with the passing of Hurricane Katrina, support for the bill has grown since a similar measure passed the House last year and was killed in the Senate.

Horrific images of people without the protection of public safety in New Orleans made a particular impression on viewers who had never before felt unsafe, according to the gun lobby.

gAmericans saw a complete collapse of the governmentfs ability to protect them,h said Wayne LaPierre, the NRAfs executive vice president.

gThat burnt in, those pictures of people standing there defending their lives and defending their property and their family,h he added, gwhere the one source of comfort was a firearm.h

With support from new Republicans who arrived for this session of Congress, the bill passed the Senate for the first time in July. House passage never was in doubt because it had 257 co-sponsors, far more than the 218 needed to pass.

The billfs authors say the bill still allows civil suits against individual parties who have been found guilty of criminal wrongdoing by the courts.

Critics cite D.C. sniper
Opponents say the strength of the billfs support is testament to the influence of the gun lobby. If the bill had been law when the relatives of six victims of convicted Washington-area snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo sued the gun dealer from which they obtained their rifle, the dealer would not have agreed to pay the families and victims $2.5 million, they said.

gIt is shameful that Republicans in Congress are pushing legislation that guarantees their gun-dealing cronies receive special treatment and are above the law,h said Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Calif.

The Brady Campaign, which campaigns to control firearms, said it would challenge the legislationfs constitutionality in court.

Dennis Henigan, director of the Brady Centerfs Legal Action Project, said, gThis shameful law will not stand. We will challenge the constitutionality of this special interest extravaganza in every court where the rights of gun violence victims are being threatened.h

gThis bill is an unprecedented attack on the due process rights of victims injured by the misconduct of an industry that seeks to escape the legal rules that govern the rest of us,h he added.

Product lawsuits still allowed
Bush has said he supports the bill, which would prohibit lawsuits against the firearms industry for damages resulting from the unlawful use of a firearm or ammunition. Gun makers and dealers still would be subject to product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits, the billfs authors say.

Democrats and Republicans alike court the NRA at election time, and the bill has garnered bipartisan support. But the firearms industry still gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle.

Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats that cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
 
M

moreluck

Guest
Number of physicians in the U.S. 700,000
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year 120,000
Accidental deaths per physician 0.171

Number of gun owners in the U.S. 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500
Accidental deaths per gun owner 0.0000188

Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Scary, huh?
 
O

ok2bclever

Guest
The fact that the doc was involved because you already had problems kind of skews those stats now doesn't it.

On the other hand if you compare the stats where a doctor purposefully kills you versus a gun owner purposefully killing you the odds show the guy with the gun is by far the more dangerous.

But hey, next time your sick or hurt go to the guy with the gun, who knows.

Reminds me of the hunter who called 911 . . .

Two men were out in the woods hunting.
Suddenly, one of them clasped his chest, suffering from a heart attack.

Instantly, his friend whipped out his cell phone and dialed 9-1-1. When the operator came on, she heard a frantic voice say that his friend had just had a heart attack and died. Calmly, she replied that he should make sure that his friend was really dead. He said ok and asked her to hold. A few moments later, the operator heard a gunshot, followed by the man coming back on, confirming the death and asked what he had to do next.

Guns don't kill people, stupidity does.

If only we could keep guns out of the hands of the stupid.
 
T

therodog

Guest
NRA-ILA Grassroots Alert Vol. 12, No. 42 10/21/05

U.S. HOUSE PASSES S. 397--
"The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act"!!!

Thanks to your efforts, yesterday the U.S. House of Representatives passed S. 397 by a strong bipartisan vote of 283-144! Yesterday's vote marks the final legislative action on the bill, which now heads to President Bush for his expected signature. After the President signs the bill into law, it will take effect immediately.

S. 397 will end the campaign of reckless lawsuits being filed in an attempt to hold the lawful firearm industry responsible for the acts of criminals. The law will not preclude suits where the law is broken or where a defective firearm is manufactured.

During Senate debate earlier this year, the Pentagon stated its concern over the consequences if the American firearm industry was litigated into extinction. The Department of Defense stated that it "strongly supports" S. 397 and "that passage of S. 397 would help safeguard our national security by limiting unnecessary lawsuits against an industry that plays a critical role in meeting the procurement needs of our men and women in uniform." Echoing this point, NRA-ILA Executive Director Chris Cox noted, "We are a safer country today because Congress passed this critical legislation. Our men and women in uniform abroad and at home now will not have to rely on France, China, or Germany to supply their firearms."

Hailing the House action yesterday, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said, "This is an historic victory for freedom. Truth and justice prevailed, and today S. 397 is one step closer to becoming the law of the land. America is a better place because Congress acted to save American icons like Remington, Ruger and Colt from politically motivated lawsuits." NRA-ILA's Cox stated, "Today's vote by the House marks the dawn of a new day; a day when no longer will anti-gun officials and trial attorneys be able to do an end run around the legislative process by trying to bankrupt the firearm industry through irresponsible litigation. Passage of the 'Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act' would not have been possible without the support of the 257 House co-sponsors from both sides of the aisle. We appreciate the tireless efforts of Reps. Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Rick Boucher (D-Va.), and the members of House leadership who worked to move the bill in this chamber."

Despite the desperate efforts of anti-gun Representatives yesterday, who one-by-one prefaced their remarks against S. 397 by shallowly professing to support the Second Amendment, the lopsided and bipartisan vote showed that support for this common sense reform was wide and deep.

While yesterday's vote was indeed a landmark event in the history of the Second Amendment, sadly, the long term fight isn't over. Even before yesterday's vote, the gun banners at the Brady Center promised to resist in court. So while victory was ours yesterday, and the House took a monumental step toward protecting the lawful firearm industry, our fight will continue to ensure that any attempt to weaken or overturn this law is thwarted.

Again, all of us at NRA-ILA want to thank you for making this victory possible. Without your steadfast support and your tireless efforts meeting with and contacting your lawmakers, we would not have been able to finish the job we started years ago. As always, you deserve a lion's share of the credit for this hard fought victory, and you have earned the gratitude of America's 80 million lawful gun owners. As Wayne LaPierre aptly said "I would like to thank our members who played a pivotal role in making this bill a reality. Together, we have protected the sanctity of the Second Amendment. And this right will continue to be proudly preserved by freedom's largest, most compelling, and devoted voluntary organization in the world."

Take note of how your Representative voted, and please thank those who voted in support of gun owners and let those who voted against our rights know that you will keep their votes in mind when they are up for re-election.
 
O

ok2bclever

Guest
Sigh, it doesn't seem fair that your intelligent post got wiped wkmac and the stupid one showing anyone can use stats to arrive at the dumbest suppositions survived.
 
W

wkmac

Guest
At least I have one witness here(you ok2bc) that at one point in my life, for that perfect moment, I did in fact have some intelligence!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Hypocrisy in the US Senate

This story of what is happening in the Senate IMO just proves except for a handful, there is no difference between democrats and republicans. This should make each one of us question the folks that represent us in Washington DC.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I love this quote because in it's funny way it sez alot!

"If guns kill people then misspelled words are caused by the pencils!"

Larry the Cable Guy
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Hey FE. It says the militia is to be well regulated, not the fire arms that they carry.

I dont know who posted it, and now the post is gone. It stated that the gun makers should be responsible for the sales of guns, and should not sell guns to those that should not have them.

Well lets see. Cars kill more people than guns each day. And alcohol kills many more too. So what we need is to make ford, Chevy, bud and miller responsible for the proper sales of their product. Cant sell it to any one that has ever committed a crime, mentally unstable, substance abuser. Hell, I could even make a point that if you got a speeding ticket, you should not be able to buy a car or a beer; it would make you just too dangerous.

You see just how absurd this thought is.

There are enough laws on the books to keep the guns away from those that should not have them. The laws are not enforced, and the low lives just steal what they can not legally buy. Proper enforcement of current laws and adding teeth to prison terms for those that are caught carrying would help a lot.

d
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I said it DBoy

Dannyboy,

The point didn't hinge on gun ownership or even the right to own and posess firearms. The real point of the whole example was this. Do you believe you are better able to regulate yourself and assure your friends and neighbors that you are responsible or do you believe gov't is better and in fact should be that regulatory body? Don't worry Danny as what I purposed would never happen because we all are too collectivist oriented these days for such stupid libertarian idealism but the point is we either regulate ourselves or the gov't will do it for us at the overblown emotionalism of folks like Suzi. You think about that for a moment. I'd rather regulate myself than have someone else do it for me. That was my real point.

Oh and one other thing, you and I will lose our guns before this thing is over and you can take that to the bank. Read some of the international treaties our fine US Senate has ratified and will ratify in the future that also require certain laws to be codified into the law and it's all a matter of time. Oh, and they will remove them from your cold dead fingers if you are mentality inclined to think that way! Guns are on the way out and will go the way of the bow and arrow and sword as means of defense. Here's a piece of advice, watch and learn about sound and energy technolgy. Remember this word. Scalar. Even makes nuclear meaningless as a weapon. I've added this link for a small taste of the issue.

http://www.livescience.com/technology/ap_050713_phasers.html

I know those 200 plus year old documents don't mean a thing anymore but Federalist #29 written by Hamilton is a worth while read on the issue of militia and guns. Kinda interesting what Big Al has to say about the ability of the Federal gov't to raise and maintain a standing army 200 plus years ago as our young nation was debating the ratification of it's new but not yet excepted Constitution. Sounds to me like if he were alive today he just might be out there protesting the means and waging of war this country is currently engaged in. How interesting!

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fed_29.html
 
Last edited:

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Shame they are not making this technology available to the guys overseas. Well over half of the deaths and injuries have been by remote controled landmines and explosives. With this stuf they could explode it before we even get close. or render it harmless by frying the controls.

Oh and I am with you. I would much rather regulate myself than have someone control my life and regulate it for me. Unlike the game company slogan there are bounderies that a person needs to stay within. And one of those is respect for others. Call me oldfashioned, but the lack of respect for others and thier property is a root cause for many problems we have in the country today.

d
 
Last edited:

susiedriver

Well-Known Member
Self regulation has worked so well with UPS and OSHA, we should have everything self-regulated; firearms, energy, the stock market, transportation, savings & loans, etc...[/sarcasm]
 
Top