RTW passes in Michigan

[Jones]

 

[Macbrother]

If there is one thing you should have learned at UPS is that it pays off for the long haul not the short term.

That would be quite fine if driving was right around the corner for us, like it was for you. It isn't. Most PT-hires now are looking at a 5-7 year wait at least to make FT. If the union / FT response is "just suck it up and wait your turn," well, you can see how we might react to that.

I was paid slightly less than that progression when I was part time so I don't see what the problem is. I did the same work you are doing. I might point out that the pace was quite a bit higher then as we didn't have to scan anything. We loaded trailers almost twice as fast as they do now.

How long ago was that? Are you really suggesting it's perfectly fine that PT starting pay hasn't risen one cent in over 10 years? Would you accept this as a driver if you were making just barely over minimum wage? As to your latter point, I load package cars -- if you think you were loading that faster back then than now; well, come stop by the belt sometime at 6:00am and tell it to me again.

 

[Catatonic]

That would be quite fine if driving was right around the corner for us, like it was for you. It isn't. Most PT-hires now are looking at a 5-7 year wait at least to make FT. If the union / FT response is "just suck it up and wait your turn," well, you can see how we might react to that.

It was 6 years for me and longer for most people I knew and that was 35 years ago.
Most people are looking at 10 or more years.

I don't know who mislead you but P/T jobs at UPS are just that ... good for students mostly.
I was told that 40 years ago and I have told new P/T hires that for the next 20 years I was in Operations.
Whoever told you different was "pissing in your ear and telling you it is raining".
You don't get things just because you want them.

 

[trickpony1]

It was 6 years for me and longer for most people I knew and that was 35 years ago.
Most people are looking at 10 or more years.

I don't know who mislead you but P/T jobs at UPS are just that ... good for students mostly.
I was told that 40 years ago and I have told new P/T hires that for the next 20 years I was in Operations.
Whoever told you different was "pissing in your ear and telling you it is raining".
You don't get things just because you want them.

If that's true then why is there language in the contract referring to retirement and pension benefits for PT'ers?

 

[Catatonic]

It was 6 years for me and longer for most people I knew and that was 35 years ago.
Most people are looking at 10 or more years.

I don't know who mislead you but P/T jobs at UPS are just that ... good for students mostly.
I was told that 40 years ago and I have told new P/T hires that for the next 20 years I was in Operations.
Whoever told you different was "pissing in your ear and telling you it is raining".
You don't get things just because you want them.

If that's true then why is there language in the contract referring to retirement and pension benefits for PT'ers?

That is a weird question or maybe I'm a bit slow this morning ... what is the relationship between my post and your question?
Perhaps if you highlighted or stated the postulate, I would understand.

 

[PiedmontSteward]

I hope no UPS union members were involved in the heinous acts seen in the video linked below.

UNIONS ASSAULT ON CAMERA!! - YouTube

You mean all of those heavily edited/provoked heinous acts? Crowder is a cheap Andrew Breitbart clone.

 

[moreluck]

Those old people in wheel chairs in that tent were really provoking those poor union men.
And the union men were taking cut up pieces of that tent to memoralize their trauma!!!

 

[moreluck]

I don't care if a person reminds you of G.Beck.....you have no right to hit them......unless they are hitting you and then you can defend yourself.

So it's OK to hit anyone that reminds you of Breitbart???

 

[Catatonic]

Passing RTW in Michigan sucks for us in the south.
All those jobs that were coming here might be staying up there.
I hope it fails.

 

[104Feeder]

That would be quite fine if driving was right around the corner for us, like it was for you. It isn't. Most PT-hires now are looking at a 5-7 year wait at least to make FT. If the union / FT response is "just suck it up and wait your turn," well, you can see how we might react to that.

If you consider 5 years "right around the corner" then I guess you've got me. I think a few people jumped ahead of me by a few months because I wasn't finished with school yet. The economy & the Company are responsible for your wait into friend/T, not the Union.


How long ago was that? Are you really suggesting it's perfectly fine that PT starting pay hasn't risen one cent in over 10 years? Would you accept this as a driver if you were making just barely over minimum wage? As to your latter point, I load package cars -- if you think you were loading that faster back then than now; well, come stop by the belt sometime at 6:00am and tell it to me again.

It was more than 10 years before it rose $.50. The Company insisted on the lower starting wage during the last negotiations. But yes, we loaded faster back then. Preload started at 5 and was done by 8 (rarely did I even see my preloader in my early driving days. She had already gone home). Now it's as early as 3:30 and they aren't even wrapped by 9. I'm not saying you or any other worker is to blame, it's because they've added more crap that slows you down like Over 70's, more package cars per loader, and those stupid labels that aren't nearly as fast as a good preloader that knew his/her load charts by rote.

You can keep fighting me, Hoax, and the others but we're not putting you down or thinking we're better. We've just done your job and put in decade of service to this Company so we know that it's worth it in the long haul. When I started there was no progression. You got $8, $9 for sorter or preload pay and then you just waited getting typical $.50, $.55/hr raises every year. friend/T had a two year progression then, and I was lucky to keep my wage for a year until I caught up. People hired after me had to give up their P/T wage which was typically higher and start at the bottom of the progression. In many cases this was more than $4/hr. Funny thing is, nobody ever complained about that to me they just stuck it out til they made top pay. Top pay is nice but you have to earn it. It's part of why you might notice a certain pride bordering on cockiness in senior Drivers and Feeders alike: because they've earned where they are at. I would seriously consider looking at yourself and seeing if this bitterness & resentment is what you want because at the rate you are going you are going to have a lot of it at UPS. There will always be some rule you feel is unjust, some other driver you feel is being favored, some route you were cheated out of, some Management decision that is completely unfair. The grievance procedure won't satisfy you because it's slow and deliberate and, just like the justice system, not always just or fair.

I'm curious what you think a fair wage or progression should be for P/T considering all their issues with theft, absenteeism, and turnover? When I was P/T I topped out at $18k, part of it earned working as a Helper. Top pay now at 25 hrs/wk would put you at almost $17k (and consider that the pension contributions are higher and there is more vacation). A friend/T driver at the time had a base salary of about $40k ($19.75/hr). Since Drivers make a base of about $66k a year, do you think P/T pay should be about $33k a year? (Roughly $25/hr) That's pretty close to the Median personal income for people working full time.

You might be careful what you wish for. If your pay rises enough, the Company is going to demand a lot more in return. Gone will be the Friday Pizza etc that they use to try to keep you guys from quitting. Gone will be the unspoken truth that they need you more than you need them. P/T sups would love your pay to rise because theirs will too and they will be on your ass more than you can ever imagine.

 

[104Feeder]

That's because the funds provided for P/T employees which they rarely use, is used by the Teamsters to subsidize friend/T Health benefits.

I don't know if there is any truth to that! Most of the senior P/T around here are doing it for the benefits and they have kids and/or wife/husband without benefits. When I started it was mostly college students so sure, you never used your benefits unless you had an accident. I guess word got out after we switched to DES hires. I always tell any Driver hot for some hub person "find out how many kids she has first".

 

[tonyexpress]

Jimmy Hoffa Warns Of "Civil War" As Michigan Governor Signs "Right-To-Work" Into
Law


Hoffa Vows To Fight Right-To-Work-For-Less In Michigan - YouTube

 

[Macbrother]

It was 6 years for me and longer for most people I knew and that was 35 years ago.
Most people are looking at 10 or more years.

I don't know who mislead you but P/T jobs at UPS are just that ... good for students mostly.
I was told that 40 years ago and I have told new P/T hires that for the next 20 years I was in Operations.
Whoever told you different was "pissing in your ear and telling you it is raining".

Nobody misled me about anything, I was fully aware of the state of affairs before joining, so you can save your bloviating, patronizing speel. The length of wait for FT is not an issue I have with the union.

You don't get things just because you want them.

If only UPSers had listened to management when they said this in '97, the strike would've never happened!

104 feeder

If you consider 5 years "right around the corner" then I guess you've got me. I think a few people jumped ahead of me by a few months because I wasn't finished with school yet. The economy & the Company are responsible for your wait into friend/T, not the Union.

You said it was two years back then, but that's immaterial. I'm aware the union isn't at fault, and nowhere did I blame them for this. You said the goal was to "reduce part timers" by making more full time jobs. Well, FT jobs aren't being created. So where does that leave PTers?

You might be careful what you wish for. If your pay rises enough, the Company is going to demand a lot more in return. Gone will be the Friday Pizza etc that they use to try to keep you guys from quitting. Gone will be the unspoken truth that they need you more than you need them. P/T sups would love your pay to rise because theirs will too and they will be on your ass more than you can ever imagine.

I'm curious, do you think UPSers should have accepted this line of reasoning in '97 and accepted management demands for fear of reprisal / fear of more work? No? So why would you feed me this line of reasoning? Besides, we are already swimming in boxes, what am I going to do, stack out more? Management is already squeezing every nickel they can get out of preload and if you were on the belt you'd know that. Friday pizza? Never heard of it -- I don't hear or see from management unless it's once a month for the misload I got.

I'm not here to fight anyone, nor do I have any bitterness or resentment. I take pride in the work I do, and I especially take pride in the gentlemen that I work across from/with; they know the battle we do each and every day to get everything in the truck despite the ridiculous production demands of corporate. That doesn't mean, however, I'm not going to voice my displeasure about how I (and many, many others, look around) feel about part-timers being completely left behind in compensation by the union. Aren't you supposed to be representing everyone? Or just a percentage?

 

[104Feeder]

Nobody misled me about anything, I was fully aware of the state of affairs before joining, so you can save your bloviating, patronizing speel. The length of wait for FT is not an issue I have with the union.



If only UPSers had listened to management when they said this in '97, the strike would've never happened!

104 feeder


You said it was two years back then, but that's immaterial. I'm aware the union isn't at fault, and nowhere did I blame them for this. You said the goal was to "reduce part timers" by making more full time jobs. Well, FT jobs aren't being created. So where does that leave PTers?
At the time where I found out that our P/T turnover rate was almost 60% it was about 2 years before people could go driving. In my personal experience it was 5 years. Part of the disconnect we are having is that UPS rarely does a slow, steady hiring that provides opportunity for everyone. It's more like "do without as long as we can, subcontract, use supervisors, deny there is a problem, then reverse course and declare a crisis & hire more than we can train". So you get this bottleneck that works it's way up and down the chain. We have language in our contract that establishes how many 'training routes' each Center should have depending on the number of drivers and with a maximum of 4. At that time of 2 years wait we only had 2 actually designated as such and they were bastardized into nothing like a training route should be (mixture of business & resi for example). We also have language that no drivers bid route could be altered to become a training route. For once, the Company's failure to bid routes in a timely fashion gave us an outlet to create 4 actual training routes and we had to come to an agreement to use a driver's route who was out on disability so we could train a 5th. You can imagine that this created another problem with the swing drivers who liked to cover that route. So again, the Union is put in the unenviable position of having to piss off someone in order to create full time opportunities for others.



I'm curious, do you think UPSers should have accepted this line of reasoning in '97 and accepted management demands for fear of reprisal / fear of more work? No? So why would you feed me this line of reasoning? Besides, we are already swimming in boxes, what am I going to do, stack out more? Management is already squeezing every nickel they can get out of preload and if you were on the belt you'd know that. Friday pizza? Never heard of it -- I don't hear or see from management unless it's once a month for the misload I got.
Ask any Package driver how his allowance is cut every time we get a raise and see if you think they can't demand more. My old package route has increased by about 65 stops per day from when I had it, and the area hasn't changed.

I'm not here to fight anyone, nor do I have any bitterness or resentment. I take pride in the work I do, and I especially take pride in the gentlemen that I work across from/with; they know the battle we do each and every day to get everything in the truck despite the ridiculous production demands of corporate. That doesn't mean, however, I'm not going to voice my displeasure about how I (and many, many others, look around) feel about part-timers being completely left behind in compensation by the union. Aren't you supposed to be representing everyone? Or just a percentage?

That's just what I'm getting from the tone of your posts. I trying to get you to step back and look at the larger picture as to why the starting wage hasn't risen. I'm assuming you came in after the 2008 contract? When exactly? Are you Saturday Air driving? Why not?
Most of the wage issue is related to problems P/T employees present as far as turnover etc. The Company has increased costs every time they have to train new employees so often. That and maintaining healthcare benefits for P/T was huge in the last contract.

As to representing everyone, "Everyone" does not include employees who haven't been hired and may never be hired. I think that is what you are asking us to do, take a stand for raising the starting wage for people that may never present themselves. I can't sell that to anyone and I wouldn't support it myself. Our Secretary Treasurer, Andy M, was shaking his head when the Company insisted on keeping the starting wage in the last contract. Not because he thought we should reject the Contract because of that, but because of the problems it would create in attracting better quality applicants and solving the turnover problem. Sure, I'd like the starting wage to be double what it is now, but that's just not going to happen overnight. I think you'd be lucky to see it rise to $9/hr in the next Contract.

 

[Fullhouse]

He already has done that, the day Jr let UPS leave Central States!

 

[Catatonic]

He already has done that, the day Jr let UPS leave Central States!

Perhaps using the "Reply With Quote" link will clue people as to which post you are responding to.

 

[Anonymous 10]

I think we should give Michigan to Canada.

 

[Fullhouse]

Hoffa is rolling over in his grave werever that may be!

He already did, when Jr let UPS leave Central States!

 

[Brownslave688]

I ask u again macbrother what would u find an acceptable wage and progression to be?

 

[bogeyball]

Don't be fooled by all the scare tactics you'll hear about the locals going broke and management getting the upperhand once a state becomes a right to work state. Its simply a lie. When those things happen its because of funds mismanagement and the weakness of the local members and agents. Being in a right to work state will be blamed but in most cases (if not all) the problems already existed before. The members are responsible. Not the right to work laws.

Unions cannot and don't have the right to complain about not getting enough dues when they are giving millions of dollars to political organizations and have squandered pension funds in the process.

I am a dues paying member in a right to work state.

Well said.... couldn't agree more.