RTW passes in Michigan

[Macbrother]

That's just what I'm getting from the tone of your posts. I trying to get you to step back and look at the larger picture as to why the starting wage hasn't risen. I'm assuming you came in after the 2008 contract? When exactly? Are you Saturday Air driving? Why not?
Most of the wage issue is related to problems P/T employees present as far as turnover etc. The Company has increased costs every time they have to train new employees so often. That and maintaining healthcare benefits for P/T was huge in the last contract.

Don't confuse resentment or bitterness for passion and intensity. Do you really think the turnover rate would be so high if PTers were paid a decent wage? Some of them aren't cut out for it, true; however there's plenty others who might be great employees but see the ridiculous workload, demands, and hours and say to themselves, "there's no way I'm putting up with this bull**** for $8.50" If the wages were actually commensurate for the work required (like it is for drivers) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you'd have a LOT more people sticking around.

As to representing everyone, "Everyone" does not include employees who haven't been hired and may never be hired. I think that is what you are asking us to do, take a stand for raising the starting wage for people that may never present themselves. I can't sell that to anyone and I wouldn't support it myself. Our Secretary Treasurer, Andy M, was shaking his head when the Company insisted on keeping the starting wage in the last contract. Not because he thought we should reject the Contract because of that, but because of the problems it would create in attracting better quality applicants and solving the turnover problem. Sure, I'd like the starting wage to be double what it is now, but that's just not going to happen overnight. I think you'd be lucky to see it rise to $9/hr in the next Contract.

I'm aware of the issue of turnover and actually I don't mind terribly making us wait a year for benefits -- provided the union gets something back in return. So fine, make it $9/hr during your training period but add a substantial raise at seniority, seniority + 6 months, or seniority + 1 year with a reasonable wage progression afterwards.

You realize due to inflation someone hired at UPS part time in 2000 was making 30% more than what they are starting out with now, right? Do you remember how much a gallon of gas cost back then? Zero increase in wages over that length of time period is just a shocking level of neglect.

 

[Grammarly1959]

My son was recently hired with UPS making $8.50/hr. Its his first "real" job (for pay); the others were volunteer warehouse jobs in charities our family is active in. I realize that pay sounds insane to most of you, but in this economy, he is lucky to have a job, period, and he knows it.

 

[804brown]

FOCUS | Michigan's New Corporate Servitude Law

 

[104Feeder]

Don't confuse resentment or bitterness for passion and intensity. Do you really think the turnover rate would be so high if PTers were paid a decent wage? Some of them aren't cut out for it, true; however there's plenty others who might be great employees but see the ridiculous workload, demands, and hours and say to themselves, "there's no way I'm putting up with this bull**** for $8.50" If the wages were actually commensurate for the work required (like it is for drivers) I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you'd have a LOT more people sticking around.

I think that would present another problem with creating a larger class of people who just want to stay part time and not ever move to full time. Movement goes in spurts at UPS, not a constant flow, so if the part time pay is too high the Company might have to turn to off-the-street hires. I would like to see it rise a little, but not enough that I think would satisfy you. I see too many people that have broken the $20 threshold staying part time and just stayed put. I put up with the same BS for $8 so it doesn't seem like an hurdle to me.

I'm aware of the issue of turnover and actually I don't mind terribly making us wait a year for benefits -- provided the union gets something back in return. So fine, make it $9/hr during your training period but add a substantial raise at seniority, seniority + 6 months, or seniority + 1 year with a reasonable wage progression afterwards.

What would you consider substantial? 10%? 20%? 30%? What happens when it bumps into the Drivers starting wage, which is set at a percentage of the top rate? They start out at 70% and work up over 3 years, with a huge bump at the end. You'd have people taking a pretty good haircut per hour to go driving, which might further discourage them from doing so.

You realize due to inflation someone hired at UPS part time in 2000 was making 30% more than what they are starting out with now, right? Do you remember how much a gallon of gas cost back then? Zero increase in wages over that length of time period is just a shocking level of neglect.

I not seeing how we could raise the starting wage 30% ($11.05) and not see repercussions in other areas that you might dislike more such as having to pay for healthcare. Plus that might not sit so well with those who have been doing the job and taking their annual wage increases to find out that they are barely staying above those who just came on. Really I think the problem is that Part time should have never been allowed in and certainly not allowed to expand to the levels it is today. UPS isn't a part time commitment.

 

[104Feeder]

My son was recently hired with UPS making $8.50/hr. Its his first "real" job (for pay); the others were volunteer warehouse jobs in charities our family is active in. I realize that pay sounds insane to most of you, but in this economy, he is lucky to have a job, period, and he knows it.

Tell him to stick with it and if he wants to go to College to focus on that. Then look around and see what his degree will pay vs. staying at UPS & make the choice. If he's not college bound encourage him to look for every opportunity available such as air driving until he can go full time driving. Encourage him to look to the senior drivers and ask how they've made it so far.

 

[brown_trousers]

I not seeing how we could raise the starting wage 30% ($11.05) and not see repercussions in other areas that you might dislike more such as having to pay for healthcare. Plus that might not sit so well with those who have been doing the job and taking their annual wage increases to find out that they are barely staying above those who just came on. Really I think the problem is that Part time should have never been allowed in and certainly not allowed to expand to the levels it is today. UPS isn't a part time commitment.

Starting wage is not the issue. In fact, it may be beneficial to leave starting wages low and leave the 1 year delayed benefits, it weeds out the non-serious part-timers. And we don't want a bunch of new-hires that just want to milk the system for a year and then quit. faster wage increases should be given to part-timers with seniority, not new-hires.

 

[Grammarly1959]

He's not going to college, he'd like to learn a trade, or work permanently with a company such as UPS or Fedex.

 

[Brownslave688]

I not seeing how we could raise the starting wage 30% ($11.05) and not see repercussions in other areas that you might dislike more such as having to pay for healthcare. Plus that might not sit so well with those who have been doing the job and taking their annual wage increases to find out that they are barely staying above those who just came on. Really I think the problem is that Part time should have never been allowed in and certainly not allowed to expand to the levels it is today. UPS isn't a part time commitment.

Starting wage is not the issue. In fact, it may be beneficial to leave starting wages low and leave the 1 year delayed benefits, it weeds out the non-serious part-timers. And we don't want a bunch of new-hires that just want to milk the system for a year and then quit. faster wage increases should be given to part-timers with seniority, not new-hires.

Yes this is the problem we need a wage increase that puts them around $15 an hour in 3-4 year. The low starting pay just weeds out poor employees anyway.

 

[104Feeder]

Looking at that progression again I just realized that I was only at $12.50 in 5 years while that progression tops out in 4. Seems like an improvement to me. I think the focus should be on combining p/t jobs to create full time ones and reduce the overall number of part time jobs to the absolute minimum. Perhaps we should go back to how we used to load/unload our own package cars (I notice the extended centers still do this). Have people come in and preload then drive, and others drive then unload in areas that aren't large enough for Day/Twilight/Midnight/Preload sorts. Phoenix could absolutely combine those sorts into full time inside jobs as there is already quite a lot of double shifting happening on a regular basis. The Airport could easily be transformed this way also. Our other hubs & Centers: Tempe, Mesa, & Estrella would be perfect for the loader/driver driver/unloader model.
Maybe this would adjust the workload a bit and take care of the 9.5 problem too. Start at 0500 off by 1500. Start up at Noon, off by 2200. I think the model of having most every driver start at 9 and work til they drop is antiquated.

 

[ftballer67]

I ask u again macbrother what would u find an acceptable wage and progression to be?

How about the same progression they give to part time air drivers or something similar. 12.50, 13.50, 14.50, top rate which I believe is around $22.

Even if it was a bit less, it would be nice to have a reasonable wage progression like every other union work group represented by the Teamsters at UPS receives.

 

[Macbrother]

I think that would present another problem with creating a larger class of people who just want to stay part time and not ever move to full time. Movement goes in spurts at UPS, not a constant flow, so if the part time pay is too high the Company might have to turn to off-the-street hires. I would like to see it rise a little, but not enough that I think would satisfy you. I see too many people that have broken the $20 threshold staying part time and just stayed put. I put up with the same BS for $8 so it doesn't seem like an hurdle to me.

I don't see this as happening. You have a set group of people who never intended to drive from the get go and are fine with the benefits and a part time job; however the vast majority I see join up to drive one day. Your mileage may vary. Once again, $8 for you, then, was significantly more valuable than $8.50 now.

What would you consider substantial? 10%? 20%? 30%? What happens when it bumps into the Drivers starting wage, which is set at a percentage of the top rate? They start out at 70% and work up over 3 years, with a huge bump at the end. You'd have people taking a pretty good haircut per hour to go driving, which might further discourage them from doing so.

Something like: starting: $10.00; seniority + 1 year: $12; with a 3 year progression that comes to 1/2 driver pay, whatever it is at the given time.

Whatever its original intent is not really relevant to the current point, it is what it is here and now, and you have an entire army of teamsters who have been grossly left behind the last two contracts.

 

[104Feeder]

How about the same progression they give to part time air drivers or something similar. 12.50, 13.50, 14.50, top rate which I believe is around $22.

Even if it was a bit less, it would be nice to have a reasonable wage progression like every other union work group represented by the Teamsters at UPS receives.

Why should it be the same? Do part timers have to pass a DOT physical? Maintain appearance standards? Pass random drug testing? Maintain their drivers license? Can they be out of a job in a year for a DUI? Are they limited by HOS?

The progression itself is reasonable, it's better than what it has been in the past (as there was no progression).

 

[104Feeder]

I don't see this as happening. You have a set group of people who never intended to drive from the get go and are fine with the benefits and a part time job; however the vast majority I see join up to drive one day. Your mileage may vary. Once again, $8 for you, then, was significantly more valuable than $8.50 now.
Do you have any facts to back up your statement on the "vast majority"? How long have you been with UPS to develop such insight? Isn't it just really the people you work with that are your 'vast majority'? How many would that be?

I made less than $130/week back when I was just starting out. It certainly didn't feel more valuable. I had a second job working 30 hours a week so I averaged 45-50 hours total plus putting myself through school. I've never worked less than 45 hours a week since I was 15 years old and minimum wage back then was barely over $3. So maybe that's why I'm not really feeling a whole lot of sympathy for your plight. Less than 1/4 of those I worked with in the hub went driving. An equal number have stayed part time. The rest either quit, fired, went into management, or checked out altogether. Just like when I went to Feeders I was midway on the third page of a list of people signed up to go, people don't do what they say they are going to do. I'm only interested in what people actually do.


Something like: starting: $10.00; seniority + 1 year: $12; with a 3 year progression that comes to 1/2 driver pay, whatever it is at the given time.

Whatever its original intent is not really relevant to the current point, it is what it is here and now, and you have an entire army of teamsters who have been grossly left behind the last two contracts.

What I don't think you are understanding is that the way it was done in the past was you go the Starting wage, and then a sort differential or sorter pay and that was it. Then you waited for your annual wage increases just like everybody else. The progression in place now is an improvement. Can you point to anywhere else, even any progression at UPS, where you receive a 20% raise after one year? Typically the Driver wage is pegged to a percentage of the wage in effect at the time of signing, in this case 2008. Then it's roughly 7% each segment by my calculation until you get a big jump to the top rate at the end.

Also, typically those in progression stay in progression (and it sounds like you are in progression now), until they finish then get the annual wage increases Those already through progression are red-circled at their previous wage and receive the annual increases just like we did when I was in part-time. As they say "time is on your side". So you could be asking for the interesting scenario of having to work along side newer part timers that make more than you. Unless you think we have the Company so far over the barrel that they will be willing to bump ALL part timers in or just out of progression up to $16/hr immediately after signing & that Full timers would be willing to forego most likely any raise at all to make that happen?

I'm also going to take issue with your "entire army of Teamsters who have been grossly left behind the last two Contracts" (only slightly ignoring the fact that nowhere near significant numbers of part timers are actual Teamsters in RTW States)
Someone who came part time after August 1, 2002 and started at the $8.50 rate should be making $15.97 today, so just under half the Driver rate which is what you are asking for in a great big hurry. If that person showed a little initiative and earned Sorter pay or transferred to Preload or Midnight sorts, the would be at $16.97/hr which is more than half of Driver pay. Also, you fail to take into account that on top of your wage is the Pension contribution, which in the case of the WCTPF is $7.60/hr for 2012 bringing your total per hour wage to $23.57 not including what is paid for your benefits. Throw that on top and I bet you are well over the top driver rate. I don't think it's very unreasonable to see that people starting a few years later in the either the 2002 or 2008 Contract should be making a less. At my 10 year mark I was making $20.88/hr. (we'll leave out the paid holidays, sick pay, and very generous vacation package just to keep things simple)

Don't get me wrong, I hope everyone- Full and Part Time- come away very happy in the next Contract. Everybody working here now that is. I'm not going to lose any sleep over people that may never be hired. This Company has made a lot of money and it's all been on the backs of Hub workers, Package & Air Drivers, and Feeder Drivers so we more than deserve to share in the wealth. However, I'm also cognizant of the fact that Companies have a life cycle and we may be getting near that point where if we take too much UPS will start to strain under the burden. I'm not interested in having this Company go the way of others that were overburdened by their Union contracts. Of course, many of those Companies had other issues that caused their demise and I think were are still competitive, strong, and still the best at what we do.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I've been working for UPS in a RTW state for over 14 years and still haven't "lost my right to collective bargaining" or " worked for less" or any of the other catch phrase talking points that those that wish to force everyone into union membership attempt to use to scare the uninformed. Strange huh? Maybe my state is the exception. Or maybe the overly die hards are just full of sh#¥!

 

[CharleyHustle]

Perhaps we should go back to how we used to load/unload our own package cars (I notice the extended centers still do this). Have people come in and preload then drive, and others drive then unload in areas that aren't large enough for Day/Twilight/Midnight/Preload sorts.

This is a great idea. 9 days out of 10 I have to finish loading my truck anyways, and every other day we get a message that they need everyone to unload their pickup pieces. Of course, here in Michigan they will no longer have to pay dues, so maybe the part timers will equate that to a raise and show up for work more. I hope all the part timers realize that if you don't pay dues, you can't go to union meetings, vote in union elections or vote on any contract offers. So, the only way for you to express your concerns is by posting on obscure message boards via the internet.

 

[104Feeder]

I've been working for UPS in a RTW state for over 14 years and still haven't "lost my right to collective bargaining" or " worked for less" or any of the other catch phrase talking points that those that wish to force everyone into union membership attempt to use to scare the uninformed. Strange huh? Maybe my state is the exception. Or maybe the overly die hards are just full of sh#¥!

Or maybe, it's the other 26 States that are propping your State up. We negotiate our Contract nationally so your individual State's RTW status doesn't factor in as much as it would if all States were RTW & our Union was weakened. Why don't you compare the wages of your State vs. Union Shop States near you? Use BLS statistics, not the fairytale ones on the NRTWC site. I can tell you that AZ fares quite badly in wages and benefits compared to CA, NM, and CO all across the board.

 

[moreluck]

Or maybe, it's the other 26 States that are propping your State up. We negotiate our Contract nationally so your individual State's RTW status doesn't factor in as much as it would if all States were RTW & our Union was weakened. Why don't you compare the wages of your State vs. Union Shop States near you? Use BLS statistics, not the fairytale ones on the NRTWC site. I can tell you that AZ fares quite badly in wages and benefits compared to CA, NM, and CO all across the board.

In CA., you have to join, but can drop out of the union with some official letter sent to the union!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Or maybe, it's the other 26 States that are propping your State up. We negotiate our Contract nationally so your individual State's RTW status doesn't factor in as much as it would if all States were RTW & our Union was weakened. Why don't you compare the wages of your State vs. Union Shop States near you? Use BLS statistics, not the fairytale ones on the NRTWC site. I can tell you that AZ fares quite badly in wages and benefits compared to CA, NM, and CO all across the board.

No one is "propping" anyone up. That is foolish union thug propaganda. If they were then why are locals in every RTW state spending money on picnics (some multiple picnics) every year and still have money left over to spend on local campaign mailers and presidential elections? Not to mention the Teamsters give millions to the democrat party on a consistent basis. Yeah......it sure sounds like the RTW states are struggling. SYKE!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

In CA., you have to join, but can drop out of the union with some official letter sent to the union!

We just had one drop out recently. He had to find out his anniversary date (date he joined) and send the letter within 90 days. The problem was that the local wasn't exactly very forthcoming on providing him with that date. Lets just say they did their best to derail the guy's plans. I'll leave it at that.

 

[packageman]

804 is done, anyone can see that 1400 members arent happy with this e-board now fat bill can pay the high medical fat bill don't run and the members voice wins this company will walk all over
them forsure now if you think it was bad for the last three years you aint seen nothing yet.