dannyboy said:
So in the industrial revolution, we would have been considered a fascist state? If so, when did we retreat from that position, in your opinion?
Yes Danny, in some sense you could say that but it was during this period we transitioned from Free Market to some form of economic fascism not that the industrial revolution itself was wholely fascist. Don't make the mistake of always believing that all fascism must be in the Hilter/Mussolini models of total terror and abuse. One aspect of fascism is for the production means and property of a nation to be maintained privately but it's output, methods and ways of using that production is regulated by the State itself. Under that pretext America does seem to match some of the principles of economic fascism as we do have a "planned economic model" as drafted by the centralized state from banking and currency down to the last means of output and labor. With Mussolini's quote he's actually dead on but the problem for those of us in America is that this slaps us right in the face because this is the very system we have in place. Under the Trotsky/Leninist socialism model or Engals/Marx Communism model all things are held in public by the gov't. Ironically Marx foresaw a future under communism where the gov't itself would be dissolved as the people would be conditioned to hold all things in common as a natural behavior. Nice thought but I'm not convinced eons of genetic imprinted behavior is so easily conditioned away.
As for corporations, in and of themselves they aren't always the evil but I'll admit my problem with them as I'm a believer in the old English and American Common Law systems and the ability of an individual or group of individuals to go to the gov't and create a paper person (this is what a corporation is) to absorb liability and when some wrong happens then dissolve that person from existence to null and void that liability and the physical real individuals walk away clean is just wrong IMO. This to me almost smacks of titles of nobility and the divine right of kings.
Corporations are in fact in bed with gov't and obtain special priviledges because the gov't needs the tax revenues these corporations generate to satisfy the ever growing demands of the populace in order to have these same people continue to vote them in office. In turn, the corporations go back for more as sometimes these citizen demands encroach upon the corporations and they need more special priviledge to overcome the encroachment. In turn the people demand more and thus the politician stands between the two absorbing more and more power as this Hegelian Dialectic plays out. Danny, go to K Street in Washington DC and look at whats there and who owns it all. You'll see in many respects who runs Washington at that locale. Nope K Street ain't 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. either.
Early Americans believed business was done via the individual contract and free market. If someone had a better idea he was free to market that idea but if you desire America to become something it wasn't intended, this approach to individual free trade would hamper that effort. Thus we see over time America moving more and more towards a planned economic model. At UPS you hear, "plan the work and work the plan" and this is not UPS, this is the way of smart business. If you plan the work then in order to work the plan you must also make sure no outside force intrudes on your efforts. Historically, most warfare comes about as a result of protecting from intruders on the plan or a potential to expand your area of influence thus making you plan's position even stronger. Sounds like business doesn't it. That's because gov't is business.
Yes, I do believe in several ways the American gov't, both democrat and republican, meet the criteria of some elements of fascism. However, I don't consider the American people fascist in any way and I doubt most elected leaders see it as such. Now the policy wonks, oh yeah! My personal belief is they know and the right/left warfare is nothing more than the European Fascist models (rightwing) verses the European Socialist models ie Trotsky/Lenin not Marx(leftwing) taking place in Washington as we are the meat in the middle they are fighting over. Our problem, all of us, has been to look at fascism only via the Hitler/Mussolini models. Is George Bush an overt Fascist? I'd be suprised if he was but like the rest of us, he's been caught up into a vortex started long ago by others. If he shut it off now, the effects for the American public would be catastrophic across the board so for the moment it's not an option. Many come to Washington with the idea of backing out gracefully only to run into the Tempest in the Storm. I believe Reagan was such in 1980' with talk of going back to the gold standard, massive tax overhaul and such but he soon saw the Tempest and all that went away. For good or bad depends on you point of view. Jimmy Carter was a kind and gentle person who also got slammed by the machine before he got his feet wet. Politically/economically I differ from both Carter and Reagan but I also think had they been allowed to do more history might be different today on both accounts. Good/Bad is a personal choice. Reagan BTW used a business practice to beat the soviets. He bankrupted them in a race of capital investments and knew they had no market to tax to cover the debt created. Yeah that opens another can of worms but that's for latter.
Nothing and I mean nothing will change or happen until Americans across the board begin to learn and understand just what is Washington DC and how it really operates. Just listening to someone's 30 sec. sound bites that sound good and then voting for that person is not enough. The Mussolini/Hitler models not withstanding, Fascism in some Americanized style might be good or some Americanized Leninist socialism or Marxist Communism for that fact or some concept between the extreme right or extreme left might work well for us but until Americans begin to understand the specifics of these concepts in full we are leaving to others to define and make policy using beliefs we have no knowledge of. Would you attend a religious institution where the preacher/preist was the only source of all dogma and law and that he had all authority to make up or decide what the beliefs and dogma for the people would be and that he had nothing more he had to do to justify his position. In some respects, I believe this is exactly what we do to ourselves on every election day and I myself am not immune from this either. It's frustrating to go vote and have high hopes only to see them dashed when the policies get voted in and it's the same ole' same ole'.
I think all Americans would do well to discuss the pros and cons of the many political/economic/social models out there and begin to see that many of these concepts from a variety of areas make up our govt's public policies. You want some fun go back and read the American Socialist Party's platform from the 1920's and then read the democrat and republican party platforms of today. Before you do make sure there are no loaded guns in the house as I don't want to read about you committing suicide!
Joking aside, it is a real eye opener.
Hee's another piece on economic fascism that has some good points you might find thought provoking.
http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1994archive/121_3/ts213l.html
I know this isn't a pleasant subject or position to take but I do believe just as some aspects of socialism/communism have been made into American public policy so to have aspects of Fascism. Our gov't has been crossbred so much to the point that the whole system is not working anymore. Our founding fathers started out with a pure model, oh yeah it had it faults, but over time and years we've had leaders who added a Ford part here and some Chevy parts there, some Dodge stuff and now we have some Toyota, some Nissan, some Volvo and a variety of others. If you took a car and did this, outside of some massive modifications, odds are the car wouldn't run well if at all. I sure it would take constant maintenance and adjustments and would never prove realiable of consistant when truly needed. Sound familiar?
What makes us think we can crossbreed political concepts and have them work well for us? My guess is those that push the crossbredding are the very ones to stand to benefit while the rest of us will either just stumble in and get lucky or be the unfortunate ones who get nothing. It all depends which side is in office at the time.
Take care Dannyboy!
