Spies, Lies and Wiretaps

[tieguy]

Unlike you Tie I don't buy the reasserting of the cold war by the military industrial complex and the "commie under every rock" thinkin'. Why is it that we hear these new tapes time and time again from Osama and his underlings but the terror threat level never changes.

See and here is where you and I and tyrone slothmore ( who has conviently shown up at our doorstep as susan and okie dissapear spouting the same liberal mantra) differ. You are hell bent to determine that our country and our government is the one true threat to your safety and livelyhood. I am hell bent and determined to view terrorist who have actually done something to this country as the real threat. Your little government conspiracy theories are titallating and all that but the fact still remains the george bush and bill clinton never flew no gosh darn plane into the twin towers. So get your government conspiracy head out of your ass and think about who is the real threat here.

 

[tieguy]

On second thought Wkmac you may actually be the real threat to this country. Your thoughts on goverment work to undermine a system that basically works. Ain't perfect but it does work. Bestiat was a political ferret. If he really had the right answer then the guy should have run for office and shown as all how it was done. Instead he talked theory and pissed his pants everytime he thought about actually applying what he preached. You can talk all the government conspiracy BS you want but the fact remains the government is not trying to kill me but that brainwashed zealot in the middle east dang sure is. God bless america, god bless our country , god bless our political system and god bless our eavesdropping NSA people. And godbless a system that allows you to sit back and stab it in the back as much as you do.

 

[wkmac]

Tie,
I'm glad I'm that much of a threat to your thinking because that has been the whole point to this entire exercise. BTW, before you cast me off as being unAmerican, which you are completely free to do and if you are the pinnicle example of an American then you are correct and I am very un American, you might read the ........ oh I forgot, you' re not into reading something you've already pre-determined as disturbing so never mind. Sad to becaue the founding fathers sure wrote a lot of good stuff. Enjoy the boat ride!

You ever considered the potential that from a founding fathers point of view that you might be the real threat to America? Wrote your Congressman yet on modifying the 1st amendment because I think you've got one real good letter in ya on that subject!

 

[wkmac]

Oh, and you are correct. I am a threat! Anyone willing to consider all the facts and other points of view generally are.

 

[tieguy]

Let it be a threat when it needs threatening.
Don't undermine the governements effort based on what you fear might happen.
Be vigilant against what you fear but support as long as the process stays on track.
Deal with the realities and not the what you fear might be hiding in the closet.
Appreciate what you have because while your ride burns a little oil its still the best ride out there.
Don't hate your ride because bestiat has a concept car out that looks so much prettier.
Its okay to want a better ride but don't wreck yours while you're waiting.
If your ride does not start one morning it does not mean its because the car is possessed and hell bent on being evil.
If your neighbor does not crave bestiats concept car it means he might just be very happy with his functional but not too flashy ride. It does not make him blind.

God bless america and our slightly worn but very functional system. God bless americans who still get a tear in their eye and a flutter in their heart when they see the flag go by in a parade. God bless the unconditional love of the us fighting man. God bless teddy kennedy who's lunatic rantings and ravings prove the strength of our country. May bestiat go engage himself himself in ameobic self replication and leave the old red , white and blue and all it stands for alone. If those sentiments make me blind then let me be the first to proudly grasp the leash of my seeing eye dog and lead the way. If those sentiments now make me a nazi then order me a size 12 pair of knee boots so I may proudly stomp down main street during each memorial day parade. You and Suzie and okie and the new characters who are probably the old characters spend too much time crying about what you don't have. I love the old red , white and blue and all it represents.

 

[sendagain]

Go ahead NSA, listen in, and when all the little dots are connected, let the CIA take the bastard for a little boat ride.

 

[Jones]

"When facism comes to America, it will wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"
- Sinclair Lewis

 

[tieguy]

The trouble with this country is that there are too many people going about saying, "The trouble with this country is..."

Sinclair Lewis

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

What made this country what it is is the protection each one of us has to have the freedom of conscience.

This is what made this country great. What has torn it down is the total lack of conscience of several generations.

Remember when gambling was bad and wrong. Hard to find a state that does not have it. Remember loose sex was something no one ever talked about much less bragged on. And now it is on each night during prime time, including same sex promotions.

Freedom of conscience. To some it means that you can do what ever you want. To others it is responsibility.

As for the CIA, better do some reading. Without a doubt the largest organization in the drug distribution business. Why do you think that we have not destroyed the poppy crop in Pakistan? We have plenty of troops there, more than willing and able to do so. So why not clean house? Because much of the funding that enters the CIA through the back door is drug money.

So while mac and I are at odds at times, there is nothing unAmerican about either one of us.

I look at him as the early warning device, Kinda like the alarm clock. Rings too early. So hit the snooze a dozen times. But you must heed the alarm eventually.

d

 

[tieguy]

Danny,

I won't deny you or mac the right to vigilance. I do think maybe we spend too much time worrying about what is wrong and not talking about what is right in our world.

What perturbs me is those of us who are patriots are now ostracized as being blind to reality. I think I can be real and still be positive about this country.

The problem with the CIA example you give and the current buzz about the NSA eavesdropping is those organizations can not give us the details on their accomplishments without revealing confidential information. Therefore this debate will always be one-sided.

I think the question you originally asked is a good test. Who has been hurt by this . If the eavesdropping has resulted in the average citizen being hurt or embarrassed then we have a problem. We have heard all the horror stories about our country and the CIA. We have apparently done or supported everything rotten that has ever happened in the world. And yet neither you or I or any neighbor or any family member has ever had the black booted storm troopers breaking our doors down.

So when being a patriot now means I get accused of being a blind nazi then I have a real problem with that.

 

[Jones]

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against its government."

- Edward Abbey

 

[dannyboy]

Ah....Tie, as a matter of fact, my family did have the hobnailed booted "storm troopers" in the form of the gestapo break down the door early in the morning. They gave my grandfather the option of either volunteering to fight the Russians or be shot there in the street. And since my father was a 13 year old, they pressed him into the service at the same time.

This followed my families expulsion from Austria by the Bolsheviks, but luckily that time they were one step ahead of the mob in their flight to Germany and freedom. That is why we changed our name at that time, to protect what was left of the family from eradication.

So while your statement would hold true for the majority of the board members, it is not in my case. And this from the government that promised to take care of the family unit, who was very tough on criminals, etc etc.

As to being proud to be an American, yes I am. But there are things that the USA has done, not officially, but behind the scenes, that are very disturbing. And some of them go back to within months of our gaining the freedom we sought.

As for being a patriot, no one doubts your heart. Its just like being married to a prostitute. Trust, but keep one eye open to what you see happening around you. And never be afraid to ask questions.

Best!

d

 

[tieguy]

I don't know about equating my country to a prostitute..

I guess this country thang is kinda like meeting someone with a bad reputation. I'll judge em by what they show me. My country has shown me nothing but good. I keep hearing all those bad things that make up its alleged reputation but I don't see it. I did see some fellas grab some planes over here and try to land them in the strangest places. If the ole USA needs to step into the grey area to stop that from happening so be it. When this conversation starts leaning towards my not trusting the government and allowing those middle east chaps landing rights I think I'll stand behind my government instead.

For those of you that believe you should take the risk of Al Quida over the risk of a government violating our phone rights well thats just great too. In fact don't pusillanimous foot around with your convictions. Develop a friendship with those guys. Find out where they are going next and make sure you are standing right in the middle of that area when the bombs go off. Its important you show us just how much you're willing to keep this american government with the bad CIA reputation in check. Hell I may even drink a beer in your honor as I mutter stupid under my breath.

 

[tieguy]

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against its government."

- Edward Abbey

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen, but his country's cause.
~ Homer[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[DanLee1950]

I don't care if there's a camera on every street corner...If it makes us safer in our own country. Truth is, besides the proper security clearances, the other thing anyone viewing sensitive or classified material must have is the "NTK"...the Need To Know...If you don't have it, you can't view it, move it, handle it, etc...This would include the judges who would be asked to authorize this surveillance, and members of the intelligence committees as well...If someone in this country is talking to a suspected, confirmed, or wanna-be terrorist, either here or in another country..then the authorities most certainly should know about it....And no one else should. I don't care about their methodology....I care about results.

 

[dannyboy]

Dan

I understand the thoughts you posted. And I agree with some of them. Problem is that this very same

then the authorities most certainly should know about it....And no one else should. I don't care about their methodology

That you are talking about ended up in the majority of the German population not having a clue with what was going on in the concentration camps. I am sure you would not knowingly turn a blind eye to that type of activity just because you want to see only results.

What has made this country great is the ability of man to take control over his destiny, to become whatever his heart and drive wants. And to go along with that, the responsibility of greatness, to be a moral compass to all those around him. Not to force the morality on them, but to guide them by example.

d

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I don't care if there's a camera on every street corner...If it makes us safer in our own country. Truth is, besides the proper security clearances, the other thing anyone viewing sensitive or classified material must have is the "NTK"...the Need To Know...If you don't have it, you can't view it, move it, handle it, etc...This would include the judges who would be asked to authorize this surveillance, and members of the intelligence committees as well...If someone in this country is talking to a suspected, confirmed, or wanna-be terrorist, either here or in another country..then the authorities most certainly should know about it....And no one else should. I don't care about their methodology....I care about results.

I think you make be a bit confused on what the problem some are having with NSA spying. This is not about cameras in a public space, or even taps on known terrorists. The concerns are that this is a fishing expedition, casting a wide net on a variety of means of communication, involving people with no connection to any terror organization. FISA laws allow the government to listen in on anyone, as long as they get a warrant within 72 hours. Only a handful of requests have been turned down on the last five years. There is a perfectly workable law in place that was put there for good reason. It should be followed. There are also concerns that a program known as TIA (Total Information Awareness) has been resurrected by the Information Awareness Office, in spite of Congress explicitly disallowing its use. Most everyone expects of government to do everything it can to disrupt terrorist activity, just do it legally. It's not that difficult. When we start to relinquish any of our rights for 'security' reasons we are traveling down a very slippery slope that is hard to climb back up.

If I'm not mistaken, the Magna Carta was written in response to a ruler who thought he was above the law, and became the foundation for our laws, as well. Lets not toss it aside so lightly.

 

[dannyboy]

The government that gives us everything can also take it all.

I can understand the closed mouth attitude of the NSA. With the liberal judges we have, and all those nasty leaks if very private information, the fewer people that know how information is gathered, the better.

I guess my take is parallel to the news media. It used to be that journalists thought their jobs were to report the news, any news, to record and to report. Anymore though, they see their ambition in life is not to report, but to attempt to make the world a better place, and to slant the news to fit what they think is important.

The CIA is to gather intel. Not to make or carry out their own policy. They are not to set up leaders in other countries (most of the strife we have known in the last 40 years has been with leaders hand picked and trained by the CIA) or to remove them from office. They are not to start wars that our servicemen and women have to finish.

One last thought, one that has been mentioned but bears repeating. Once rights (that have been hard earned in the past) have been given up to the government, it is almost an impossible task to ever get those rights restored back to the individual.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I can understand the closed mouth attitude of the NSA. With the liberal judges we have, and all those nasty leaks if very private information, the fewer people that know how information is gathered, the better.

dannyboy,

There are eleven FISA judges. They are neither conservative or liberal. They are judges picked by the Justice of the Supreme Court Justice, and they rotate. They have turned down five requests for warrants out of over 15,000 since 1978. FISA is there for a reason. Some folks wish to obfuscate that reason.

No one is above the law. There is no reason to circumvent the law to protect our citizens. Anyone who says otherwise can wrap themselves in an American flag, but that does not make tham a patriot. Quite the opposite, IMHO.

 

[rushfan]

Judges who are neutral? I don't think so. Some lean left, some lean right.

No matter how many times I mention to people the previous administrations used "illegal wiretapping", the people have selective memory. The spying that Nixon did was wrong, it was used to get political gain. In cases of national security, sure, use it. What do I have to hide. I'm not calling Afganistan, or Pakistan.

My point is, those that are against the wiretapping are beating a dead horse...Can we move on to the next scandal?