Spies, Lies and Wiretaps

[tieguy]

I think you make be a bit confused on what the problem some are having with NSA spying. This is not about cameras in a public space, or even taps on known terrorists. The concerns are that this is a fishing expedition, casting a wide net on a variety of means of communication, involving people with no connection to any terror organization.

Concern is fine. The litmus test still has to be who has been hurt by this. If they are spying on phone conversations and they do so responsibly without hurting the average joe then I have no problem with it.

FISA laws allow the government to listen in on anyone, as long as they get a warrant within 72 hours. Only a handful of requests have been turned down on the last five years. There is a perfectly workable law in place that was put there for good reason. It should be followed. There are also concerns that a program known as TIA (Total Information Awareness) has been resurrected by the Information Awareness Office, in spite of Congress explicitly disallowing its use. Most everyone expects of government to do everything it can to disrupt terrorist activity, just do it legally. It's not that difficult. When we start to relinquish any of our rights for 'security' reasons we are traveling down a very slippery slope that is hard to climb back up.

And if we inhibit the efforts of those providing that security then we could be traveling down an even slicker slope. In protecting the rights of the citizenry we must ensure we do not allow the terrorist uninhibited access to our shores.

If I'm not mistaken, the Magna Carta was written in response to a ruler who thought he was above the law, and became the foundation for our laws, as well. Lets not toss it aside so lightly.

and we have a process for holding those who think they are above the law accountable. The first step would be to determine if the average citizen has been hurt by this action. Have they?

 

[tieguy]

Dan
That you are talking about ended up in the majority of the German population not having a clue with what was going on in the concentration camps. I am sure you would not knowingly turn a blind eye to that type of activity just because you want to see only results.

the problem is the threat is not coming from within. There is no nazi government spewing hate against the jews running this country. There is however a force of terrorists threatening americans trying to get in. Lets deal with the immenent threat first.

What has made this country great is the ability of man to take control over his destiny, to become whatever his heart and drive wants. And to go along with that, the responsibility of greatness, to be a moral compass to all those around him. Not to force the morality on them, but to guide them by example.

If the price of my being this moral compass requires I unnecessarily risk the lives of innocent americans at the hands of terrorists then I would decline doing so. Remember the lives of close to 300 courageous firefighters who died in the line of duty, remember the lives of close to 3000 innocent americans when you make this argument. NSA and the CIA collectively have never flown any airplanes into any buildings. Don't punish them when they are trying to save our behinds.

 

[dannyboy]

HHHuuuhhhh?

d

 

[wkmac]

Dboy,
You're wasting your time. Unless Tie is willing to read the record and consider the history then he's quite comfortable with where we are with CIA, NSA, etc. Sadly, if the mechanism for protecting the rights of Americans is broken then why has the gov't leadership whether from the executive branch or legislative branch failed to step up and fix it? Neither the President or the Congress have acted on this front and that is a dereliction of duty on both parts IMO.

You are right in that once the genie is out of the bottle, it's rare if not impossible to get it back in. It's ironic that much of the info out there used to jusify the Iraq war which turned out not to be true was via CIA, NSA and so much from them before turned out bogus. Now we want to lay all our chips on that horse again?

Saw this morning where a former Iraqi General has written a book entitled Saddam's _ _ _ _? (sorry I can't remember the entire title) that sez Saddam used 50 something bogus humanitarian aircrat flights to Syria to ship out his WMD in the year 2002' before the invasion. I could believe that and that does make sense. We know he had the stuff because he had used it before. Maybe CIA, NSA need to focus their missions on that rather than monitoring phone calls and emails. Besides, has this President once proposed shoring up border security? I might take his other less tasteful efforts more serious if he'd get serious about our wide open borders. Bush sometimes comes across as a quack doctor trying to give aspirin for an advanced case of cancer. We'll let em' get in here and then we'll spy on everyone to flush out the bad ones! Sounds like a good plan to me!

 

[tieguy]

Wkmac and Danny its real simple. I think you two spend too much time slamming our government.
The last time I looked my government was trying to protect me from the bad guys. They have never done anything to me which means they are not the bad guys.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

Lemme see, letting in a whole population of illegals, many of which are terrorist, just not on the scale of 9-11, and hoping that they will stay and be good? Lying about keeping the budget in line with what Reagan attempted to do, but ending up going far into the red?

Yeah, I know you can blame part of the over spending on 9-11 and the destructive canes of the last two years. But really, could he not at least try?

As for comments by myself or Mac stating that all of the worlds evils have connections to our government, I think that neither one of us ever made that statement. I know I have not. So why exaggerate? You just blow your logical support of our gooberment with statements like that.

While not everything that has gone wrong over the last 100 years is the fault of the US gooberment, much has been.

Take the division of Germany after the war. Patton had it on the nose. Recruit the German army and take on the Russians. Take care of that problem right here and now. And if needed, pull the nuke option.

OR China during Korea. Why hamstring the generals that knew not only could we win, but it would save thousands of lives many years down the road.

And why not wean ourselves of oil? We have the knowledge, we have the technology. We proved that we could change our fuel distribution industry within two years if the proper push was given. Why not get us off the oil wagon? Or let us drill our own reserves instead of allowing some rag head terrorist country to dictate policy to us?

Too many of our thorns in our side were put in power by our gooberment, only to pose a threat later on when our plant turned on the hand that placed him in power. Why? Why should we ever get so involved with crap like that? Why should hundreds if not thousand of our servicemen die for nothing. Can you say Vietnam? CIA got us involved, promised the "freedom fighters" the USA would be there for them, then when we bugged out, tens of thousands of them died when we left them hanging.

OR like Iraq 1, when we promised the Kurds that we would protect them if they attacked from the north creating a diversion to split Saddam's troops as we went in? How did we help them when we stopped without taking him out the first time?

There are may more screw ups just like these, all on the international level.

Now take here at home. We punish the law abiding citizen with 48% taxes if they are lucky, 75% if they are not. we let criminals out because of a technicality, or worse, because we think they have served enough time and we dont have room for them. We stop innocent people from being able to purchase legal drugs over the counter, but do nothing to stop those that would use them illegally. We have managed to keep 25% of our prison population in our jails, even though they are not even US citizens? Why?

You know, you have posted many things similar to what I have just posted, but that does not make you un-American, but yet when I post it, you get on your high horse and proclaim we are un-American.

You poor pitiful fool. I am proud to be an American. But there are many things that I can not be proud of that this country has had part in.

As for the wire taps, they have been going on for many years with and without judicial approval. Only if you intend to use it during the course of prosecution would you need it to be a legal wire tap.

d

 

[automated]

America Expects Surveillance

The terrorist surveillance program is necessary and appropriate.

Link To Original Article

 

[tieguy]

Now Danny I understand the point you and Wkmac make about the U.S. government being some really mean guys and not trustworthy. All I'm saying is I like them a hell of a lot better then those terrorist fellas. So I guess If I have to choose between the two I guess I'll just have to take the US government cause hell they've been pretty dang good to me no matter how ****ty they have treated the rest of the world.

 

[dannyboy]

Precisely why we all live here and not somewhere else. It is a great place to live. And while there are some problems, problems that can be handled and solved and not swept under the rug, it still is one of the best places to live in the world.

But just because all is great in our lives and in this country does not make us beloved elsewhere.

Maybe we need to butt out of other peoples business, let the s kill each other over oil and holy lands. Problem is that the oil money has now translated into investments elsewhere. Kinda like taxing the tobacco companies out of existence. Ain't gonna happen. Too diversified. Same with the oil countries.

As for the people getting rich off of the oil in their country, why are we pushing that idea? Why should we force the countries there to allow the average Joe and Jane Ahmed share in the wealth that is there in oil? Do we do so here? When was the last time that the vast profits in oil, coal, timber, etc, etc were shared by everyone here? That is just BS and communism. but yet we want to force them into doing just that very thing?

Anyway, glad we now see eye to eye!

d

 

[wkmac]

I guess this goes under the "another slam from wkmac" department! Ah what the hell!

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060205-065029-9962r

 

[wkmac]

Wkmac and Danny its real simple. I think you two spend too much time slamming our government.
The last time I looked my government was trying to protect me from the bad guys. They have never done anything to me which means they are not the bad guys.

Tie,
Let me just say this and that will be that. Like I said much earlier, until you are willing to take the time and walk into a law library or various gov't office building to ask questions and look for the answers then you will never understand the least hint at where I'm coming from. Gov't has a place, even a federal gov't has a place, that part I've never denied. My problem is when gov't writes laws, it should be the very first to set the example and uphold it and if the law is flawed then go through the Constitutionally prescribed manner and change it. We are a nation of law and our founding fathers set us up that way. They never intended us to be a nation of men and live by the whims thereof!

More and more people are speaking out with Arlen Spector being the latest that the Bush adminstration violated the law when it went around FISA. If we cast aside principles, even for someone more politically aligned to our beliefs that the other fella then we indeed play a dangerous game. We tell the other side that when they are back in power and yes someday they will be, that the law is meaningless so do whatever you feel like. You willing to take this same position if say Hillary becomes President and that isn't as much a longshot as you might think. Are you willing to sit by and let them say the Constitution is an outdated, outmoded document. That freedom of speech, freedom of religion, that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are not gifts of grace from God but are situations and conditions granted by men via gov't and they are commodites to be taken and given at the will of men or doled out to party loyalist as payment for loyality? What happens if Bill Clinton could come back into office or what if Gore comes back and gets in? Then what? It may be easy right now but what happens when someone you disagree with gets to drive the ship of State and you took the "Chains of the Constitution that bind gov't" off and it's full steam ahead right over you and the rest of us as well?

No sir, you call me what you want. If you believe that I am America's greatest traitor because of my principles then on those principles I stipulate to your claims and declare myself guilty as charged and proud to do so! Worship men and place your faith there if you must but I will NEVER do that! The real America is strong and can stand the challenge of proving her need to act in defense of her people. The real America welcomes her positions challenged so that she may prove herself worthy. Only a weak America hides from challenges and tries to put down open and honest questions of her actions.

Take care.

 

[tieguy]

Mac,

You enjoy the government conspiracy angle. I do not. If I did I know I would have thousands to choose from some truthful some not.

When you bring up Spector saying Bush lied that in your mind proves your point.

It also proves mine. Specter will make his case and over time be proven right or wrong. The system works. No need for me to cower in the corner and worry about what the government will do to me.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/tmw.jpg

 

[dannyboy]

And and and while they are at it, tell us who killed JFK too!

d

 

[tieguy]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/tmw.jpg

gee TS thought you would be gone monday and tuesday. Everytime you say you're going to dissapear you reappear again. Just like a lying liberal democrat.

 

[wkmac]

Tyrone and Dboy,

Interesting op-ed piece you might enjoy. Interesting comments on the right to life crowd who also fight tooth and nail to keep certain drugs that may either comfort for someone's last days or maybe just have some kind of positive outcome to help them live a little longer. Hope you enjoy.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer130.html

 

[wkmac]

Is the CIA becoming the Rodney Dangerfield of the Spy bidness?

"I Get No Respect!"

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/hamas.htm

 

[tieguy]

Is the CIA becoming the Rodney Dangerfield of the Spy bidness?

"I Get No Respect!"

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/hamas.htm

Don't know if anyone could predict our elections must less a foriegn entities.

 

[wkmac]

Don't know if anyone could predict our elections must less a foriegn entities.

They're called polls Tie and they are the mainstay of many societies other than our own. Some get it right and some get it wrong and it's a judgement call as to which one to go with. Appears CIA may have went with the wrong one by listening to the Israeli's. You could say Democrats listened to the wrong polls in 1994' and lost Congressional power. Some polls suggest the republicans aren't listening on fiscal responsibility and gov't growth and we'll have to wait until November to see how accurate that forecast is. American voters are funny as they bitch about Congress all day long and then go right back and vote for their guy everytime.

You know, this doesn't taste good to say this but I wonder if the British of the day thought of our founding fathers and the revolutionists and their new gov't like we in the west view HAMAS? No, we didn't carbomb, etc. but the end result of no more British crown was still the same. I guess what's one man's patriot icon is another man's terrorist!

Saw a program recently where for many years the Beast of Revelation was seen as anything from ancient Rome to the recent Soviet Union and now in some parts of the Christian world America is coming to be seen as the Beast. I guess depending on where you are does give you a different perspective.

 

[wkmac]

Some valid points IMO in this op-ed piece.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory108.html