Stupidvisors working...a political debate

[Mike Hawk]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

I think it was the North Vietnamese president(during the war) that said “If you kill ten of our men for every one of yours we kill you will run out of men before we do.”

The terrorists we kill are martyrs in the eyes of their fellow countrymen, his death will convert more to his cause, the same way an innocent bystander killed by an american bomb will rally people to the terrorist cause. This is'nt WW2, if we fight long enough we wont win some unconditional surrender. This war has more paralels to Veitnam, we can win the battles but overall we may not win the war.

 

[Braveheart]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Keep voting for the opposite party of the one currently holding the job. If they keep getting voted out maybe someone will come along that actually does something to deserve retaining the job. Goes for all levels of govt.

Great idea. Always make a change of who is in power. It helps to balance the other side. I hold views on both sides. The last 8 years have been tough. The pork spending in congress is triple what it was in 1999!!!

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

I think it was the North Vietnamese president(during the war) that said “If you kill ten of our men for every one of yours we kill you will run out of men before we do.”

The terrorists we kill are martyrs in the eyes of their fellow countrymen, his death will convert more to his cause, the same way an innocent bystander killed by an american bomb will rally people to the terrorist cause. This is'nt WW2, if we fight long enough we wont win some unconditional surrender. This war has more paralels to Veitnam, we can win the battles but overall we may not win the war.

Nice discussion. However it appears we are winning in Iraq. conditions have improved dramatically in Iraq in the last year.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

If I remember correctly (history channel) we pushed the Vietnamese almost out of Vietnam, but China attacked and pushed us back when we approached the Chinese border with Vietnam. "Lost" that war because the public got fed up with a pointless conflict. If democrats take the Whitehouse and some dramatic event polarizes the nation we might just pull out, unless Obama has money invested in Halliburton of course.

 

[Jones]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

If I remember correctly (history channel) we pushed the Vietnamese almost out of Vietnam, but China attacked and pushed us back when we approached the Chinese border with Vietnam. "Lost" that war because the public got fed up with a pointless conflict. If democrats take the Whitehouse and some dramatic event polarizes the nation we might just pull out, unless Obama has money invested in Halliburton of course.

You're confusing Vietnam and Korea as far Chinese intervention goes.
Interestingly enough, the Chinese actually did invade Vietnam in 1979, but they didn't do any better than we did. They were smart enough to not to stick around for ten years though...

 

[trplnkl]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Mike Hawk, do you really believe that NOT fighting against terrorists will help? Do you really believe that our country will be safer if we just walk away from Iraq? Please tell.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

To be honest I don’t believe the Iraq war is justified in the first place, congress did not declare war, Bush did. it is in the constitution that the power to declare war rests solely with congress. Bush claims he had emergency powers from the 9/11/2001 attacks, but we invaded iraq in 2003, were we really in a state of emergency for 2 years? Saddam did not deserve to rule, but who are we do decide who is good and evil? Millions have died in Africa because of civil wars and genocide, that’s quite a few less than Saddam has killed, pity oil is worth more than conflict diamonds. Now that my rant is done, yes i do think we would be better off not fighting in Iraq, estimates put the cost past half a trillion USD, that’s 500,000,000. What has it accomplished? Has every terrorist surrendered? Do you think every one will at some point if we keep occupying Iraq? I think half a trillion spent on the defense of America would make us safer than half a trillion spent attacking an enemy that can't be defeated.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

If I remember correctly (history channel) we pushed the Vietnamese almost out of Vietnam, but China attacked and pushed us back when we approached the Chinese border with Vietnam. "Lost" that war because the public got fed up with a pointless conflict. If democrats take the Whitehouse and some dramatic event polarizes the nation we might just pull out, unless Obama has money invested in Halliburton of course.

Korea was the the war where we pushed them back to the chinease.
This war is now being won due to the surge and due to our working to ally local leaders against the terrorists.

 

[brownmonster]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

I have alot of Dinars riding on the outcome.

 

[trplnkl]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

To be honest I don’t believe the Iraq war is justified in the first place, congress did not declare war, Bush did. it is in the constitution that the power to declare war rests solely with congress. Bush claims he had emergency powers from the 9/11/2001 attacks, but we invaded iraq in 2003, were we really in a state of emergency for 2 years? Saddam did not deserve to rule, but who are we do decide who is good and evil? Millions have died in Africa because of civil wars and genocide, that’s quite a few less than Saddam has killed, pity oil is worth more than conflict diamonds. Now that my rant is done, yes i do think we would be better off not fighting in Iraq, estimates put the cost past half a trillion USD, that’s 500,000,000. What has it accomplished? Has every terrorist surrendered? Do you think every one will at some point if we keep occupying Iraq? I think half a trillion spent on the defense of America would make us safer than half a trillion spent attacking an enemy that can't be defeated.

You may want to go back an re-read some of the history of this war. First of all, the majority of the congress gave their blessings in effect when they allocated the money.. Second, It isn't just Bush's claim that he had the authority to, the law is on the books. Third, Saddam was in violation of several UN sanctions, one being that he refused to show proof of removing his WMDs and refusing to allow investigators into "sensitive areas" , these are only two of many more that he violated. Fourth, OIL? OIL? Where's the freekin OIL? The pundits that keep repeating that the war in Irag is about oil has never shown where the USA has gotten one drop of oil out of this war. It's time to see that the drivel of the DNC is just that, drivel. What has it accomplished? There has been no attacks against the USA on USA soil since President Bush waged war on terrorists. Has every terrorist surrendered? No, that will never happen, but you can not over look the fact that unfettered the terrorists would be in your and my back yard. I think that it is better to keep the terrorists fighting in Irag and Afghanistan than in Jersey of Nevada. How much is you not having to take up arms to defend your hometown against an evil invader that will not ever fight by the "rules"? Given today's laws(The patriot act) Timothy McVie (sp?)would not have slipped under the radar to blow up the federal building in OKC. How much would that have been worth?
You never answered my question. Do you really believe that our country will be safer if we just walk away from Iraq?

 

[Mike Hawk]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Bush declaring war was still unconstitutional, claiming that he had "emergency" powers from well over a year ago is totally abusing the law. Just because congress approved money for the war doesn’t mean they wanted to go to war and would have voted to begin it in the first place. WMD-Weapons of Mass Disappearance, where are they? Oh wait they weren’t there to begin with. Oil, do you think Saddam sold oil to the US after getting beat in Kuwait? Now that we occupy Iraq we can buy oil from them, we don’t take it as that would be stealing but we do have a reliable source of oil.

There has been no attacks against the USA on USA soil since President Bush waged war on terrorists. Has every terrorist surrendered? No, that will never happen, but you can not over look the fact that unfettered the terrorists would be in your and my back yard. I think that it is better to keep the terrorists fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan than in Jersey of Nevada. How much is you not having to take up arms to defend your hometown against an evil invader that will not ever fight by the "rules"?

How many times was the US attacked by terrorists before 9/11? I'l bet more innocent civilians from Iraq have died to our bombs than innocent Americans have died to terrorist attacks, who is the terrorist now? If we took that half trillion wasted in Iraq and spent it on homeland/border security terrorists would not be running around in our backyards.

Given today's laws (The patriot act) Timothy McVie (sp?)would not have slipped under the radar to blow up the federal building in OKC. How much would that have been worth?

Given today’s laws we can now be held by the U.S. government without trial indefinitely if we are accused of terrorism, with no right to habeas corpus, a trial or a lawyer because "technically" we are still at "war" so we are "PoWs", more bending the law to George Bush’s will. Personally I like my liberty, but hey that’s just me.

You never answered my question. Do you really believe that our country will be safer if we just walk away from Iraq?

"i do think we would be better off not fighting in Iraq"
In bold this time.

 

[trplnkl]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Bush declaring war was still unconstitutional, claiming that he had "emergency" powers from well over a year ago is totally abusing the law. Just because congress approved money for the war doesn’t mean they wanted to go to war and would have voted to begin it in the first place. WMD-Weapons of Mass Disappearance, where are they? Oh wait they weren’t there to begin with.

Wrong again.
Thursday, October 10, 2002
WASHINGTON (CNN) --
The House voted 296-133 to give Bush the authority to use U.S. military force to make Iraq comply with U.N. resolutions requiring it to give up weapons of mass destruction. Across the Capitol, a companion measure cleared a procedural vote by a wide margin earlier Thursday and drew the support of the chamber's Democratic leader.

How many times was the US attacked by terrorists before 9/11? I'l bet more innocent civilians from Iraq have died to our bombs than innocent Americans have died to terrorist attacks, who is the terrorist now? If we took that half trillion wasted in Iraq and spent it on homeland/border security terrorists would not be running around in our backyards.

One time that pops in mind suddenly was February 26, 1993, the first time the World Trade Center was bombed. Didn't do as much damage and only 6 people were killed, but hey, they didn't use airplanes filled with American citizens. There have been several other "un-explained" occurrences in the years preceding 9/11/2001 that could have been done by Al Quida favts were swept under the rug by Clinton's people. Anyone that doesn't believe that McVey was not a terrorist just don't listen. Several people stated that he had been seen before his handy work in company of "mid-eastern" looking people, yet again the government forces in charge at that time hushed that up pretty quickly. So, the answer to you question, we don't know for sure how many attacks there were before 9/11.
You tell me, just how many innocent civilians have died to OUR bombs?
No WMD to begin with? Who you been listening too? There was proff of WMDs for years before 9/11 or there would have been no need in the UN placing restrictions on Iraq to begin with. Granted there were not Nukes lieing around when we invaded, but geez SH only had a year or so to hide them in friendly neighboring countries (supply convoys were regularly observed going into Syria), not to mention all the sand that can very well hide lots of stuff. Then there were more than one or two places where there "pieces" of what could be parts for WMDs. Reports by the (Clinton) CIA and other intel agencies from other countries indicated the presence of WMDs. So to say they didn't exist is pure ludicrous.

Oil, do you think Saddam sold oil to the US after getting beat in Kuwait? Now that we occupy Iraq we can buy oil from them, we don’t take it as that would be stealing but we do have a reliable source of oil.

Hmmmm, if I'm not mistaken we don't buy oil from any mid eastern gov. We get it from OPEC.

Given today’s laws we can now be held by the U.S. government without trial indefinitely if we are accused of terrorism, with no right to habeas corpus, a trial or a lawyer because "technically" we are still at "war" so we are "PoWs", more bending the law to George Bush’s will. Personally I like my liberty, but hey that’s just me.

There is something to be said for " Abstain from the appearance of evil". I'm wondering how many American citizens have been/are being held indefinitely, being accused of terrorism? Is this possibility really a worry for you, me and/or the average American citizen?
George Bush's will was to establish a single agency to coordinate the intel needed to protect Americans in America. TO prevent the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Most of the so called "lost freedoms" are nothing compared to having to learn to speak Arabic to be able to stay alive in the USA.

"i do think we would be better off not fighting in Iraq"
In bold this time.

Oh, Goody I get to type in bold also. I believe we are SAFER today that we were on 9/11/2001.

 

[toonertoo]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

I never saw any terrorist attacks before 9/11. I never paid attention to the news until then.
I pay attention now, and for all George Bush faults we are safer.
Apparently some people were not glued to the news like I was, then and now. When that plane in PA flew over my house, my husband saw how low it was.
while all my businesses closed early and I was still out delivering, I was watching the sky.
while I didnt know who Bin laden or the taliban were, I do now.
I was really really scared. And while I didnt know anyone who perished, when I saw people jumping out of building windows, I felt the terror.
Its called education, and I worry how safe I will be after January 2009. Its a discussion we can have forever. We should be doing this or that. But right now whatever we are doing and we may not know what that is, its working. Id vote for that over health care, and more social programs, and the HOPE and Change any day.

 

[moreluck]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

My feelings exactly, Tooner.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

Bush declaring war was still unconstitutional, claiming that he had "emergency" powers from well over a year ago is totally abusing the law. Just because congress approved money for the war doesn’t mean they wanted to go to war and would have voted to begin it in the first place.

Are you kidding. they voted to support the war by funding it and you think some other type of support was needed?

How many times was the US attacked by terrorists before 9/11?

quite a few.

I'l bet more innocent civilians from Iraq have died to our bombs than innocent Americans have died to terrorist attacks,

Oh well if thats the case you probably lost an easy million in iraq before we went in.

who is the terrorist now?

You're not suggesting our troops are terrorising iraq civilians are you?

If we took that half trillion wasted in Iraq and spent it on homeland/border security terrorists would not be running around in our backyards.

didn't work before.

Given today’s laws we can now be held by the U.S. government without trial indefinitely if we are accused of terrorism, with no right to habeas corpus, a trial or a lawyer because "technically" we are still at "war" so we are "PoWs", more bending the law to George Bush’s will. Personally I like my liberty, but hey that’s just me.

You're right we should let the terrorists dictate where we fight them next.

 

[Griff]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

The media has done a great job of pushing this terrorism "threat" through the heart and mind of fearful Americans. People in this country need the illusion that they are safe and their SUV is safe. Too bad that's all it is, a mere illusion to justify being over there. How can you possibly sit here and defend the notion, "we gotta fight em over there, so we don't gotta fight em here!". Do you even hear yourself? There's a reason why they hijacked a plane because they wouldn't last a day on the ground in this country. You're scared of a bunch of people who run around in rags and live in mudhuts? This war could of been won in a few hours if the goal was to actually win, victory isn't the real goal. We are on a Jesus sponsored mission to spread democracy, by submission or brute strength, because it's what Jesus would do. I remember reading that 600,000 iraqi's have died and that was several years ago, so I assume it's near 1 million now.

We have the war on crime, the war on aids, the war on illiteracy, the war on poverty, the war on litter, the war on cancer, the war on drugs and now the war on terrorism. Ever sit back and wonder why we continually declare bogus impossible-to-win wars on these things? It really isn't very hard to figure out. Politicians and the corporate elite are robbing this country blind, but you and your SUV are safe -- no need to worry.

 

[Ptrunner]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

This is a discussion that could make any Bush supporter look bad. Bush has still not fulfilled much of the 9/11 commission ideas. And the idea that there were many acts of terrorism before 9/11 is wrong. You can look and see many Americans committing acts of terrorism but foreigners is plain wrong. The first trade center attack is that killed what 6 people. Why dont we attack China, they have killed innocent Tibetans for the last 50 years. They are always top 3 in human rights violations. There so much more then meets the eye in Bush then people know about. If we want to have a debate on history youre going to lose. These facts are there that the US isn't safer with Bush, he just makes you believe it is. By the way we spent 500 billion so far in the war that shouldn't of been started. Our economy could use the 500 billion, the real terrorist who plotted 9/11 are in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Also if you look at who Bush's and Cheneys financial supporters are, its the military industrial complex and the oil companies. Do you think its just plain coincidence that Bush got all his money from those people. By having this war, his friends keep getting richer and richer. The facts don't lie, don't let stubborness get the best of you.

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

This is a discussion that could make any Bush supporter look bad. Bush has still not fulfilled much of the 9/11 commission ideas. And the idea that there were many acts of terrorism before 9/11 is wrong.

Some terrorist attacks:

april 18,1983 bombing of the us embassy in beirut. 17 americans killed.

october 23, 1983 bombing of marine barracks in beirut -241 marines killed.

dec 12 1983 - bombing of the embassy in kuwait

1984 - various americans being kidnapped including william buckley in march.

september 20, 1984 - bombing of beirut embassy annex

december 3rd , 1984 - kuwaiti airliner hijacked. two americans killed when demands are not met.

june 14th 1985 - twa flight highjacked. navy diver robert stetham shot and killed and his body dumped on the tarmac.

october 1985 - hijacking of the achilli lauro . this was a nice one. american leon klinghoffer . disabled . 69 years old killed while sitting in his wheel chair.

OCTOBER 1986- bombing of a discotheque in berlin known to be popular to us servicemen.

december 21st - bombing of a pan am flight of lockerbie Scotland. 259 dead.

you mentioned the first bombing of the world trade center in 1993 and you dismissed the killing of six americans and don't forget the 1040 others that were injured as a result.

1995 - oklahoma city -168 dead

1996 - saudi arabia - 19 us sevicemen dead

1998 - tanzania truck bombs next to two us embassys - killing hundreds

2000 - yemen - attack on the US cole


not sure what you call many but there were quite a few .

 

[tieguy]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

This is a discussion that could make any Bush supporter look bad. Bush has still not fulfilled much of the 9/11 commission ideas. And the idea that there were many acts of terrorism before 9/11 is wrong.

quite a few . You should do some googling before you open your mouth.

You can look and see many Americans committing acts of terrorism but foreigners is plain wrong.

huh? americans are terrorists now?

The first trade center attack is that killed what 6 people.

don't forget the 1040 that were also injured as a result. How many dead americans would you consider a good number?

These facts are there that the US isn't safer with Bush, he just makes you believe it is.

What facts? Produce please. Tell me how many americans have died on us soil since 9/11 as a result of a terrorist attack?

Too much spying on the boss and not enough studying your facts?

 

[Ptrunner]

Re: Stupidvisors working...

On your long list of terrorist actions. Only one was made by a guy of middle eastern decent on homeland. Thats the problem. Bush has got the American people to believe were going to get hit at home. The Oklahoma City bombing was Tim McViegh and he does not have any al queda ties. Or are you going to pull a Cheney and link him to al queda and along with iraq. Which reports have already proven there were no such ties.

Theyre always going to be terrorist actions across the world. Its just how the world is going to be until theres an even playing field where people across the world aren't dying from disease and malnutrition, people around the world are going to be pissed off at America at its high and mighty status. How many more leaders are we going to assassinate, or how much money are we going to give to underground revolutions for our benefit. This is why theyre pissed at us, its our fault. We gave money to Israel to push out Palestinians. This is what is central to the whole thought of al queda.

Did bush stop the london train bombing, did bush stop the madrid train bombing, no he didn't. Its impossible to be a world police. You know and I know our borders are still letting millions of mexicans to do cheap labor. Why dont we put a stop to that. Im sure a terrorist could walk across so easily and arrive at the destination of bombing it wouldnt be hard since the millions of mexicans that have come into this country. The money we need for our infrastructure is going to iraq which whenever we leave iraq will go to hell anyways. You no idea of the history of iraq. Thats why Saddam was so cruel. Its three ethnic groups just unified as a country. Kurds who want their own country, Sunnis and Shiites. The Shiites want to be with Iran. Sunnis dont like Shiites and Kurds dont like either of them. The violence is not due to al queda as much as Bush says it is its between these 3 factions but mainly the Sunnis and Shiites. Thats why the whole education world who actually know history know that this is a war that cant be won. Bush and UPS are sorta alike. They like to lie in order to get people to believe in what they say.