The 2020 Presidential Debates

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
Or maybe we break up the country into several countries that cooperate for mutual defense but otherwise go their separate ways. The cultural divide between regions has grown too great to continue as a "united" nation much longer. People could choose which nation they want to live in, could freely travel between the nations as they do now with states, but we need to stop this trying to force our particular values and economic priorities on each other. And the only way that seems possible is to seperate. And if "court packing" or creating new states in an attempt to insure one party dominance happens it may very well hasten the end of the U.S. as one country.
This is all nonsense to me. First off there is no peaceful way to break up a nation. There is no peaceful way to divide resources. And most importantly, Americans aren't that ideologically or culturally distinct from one another for this idea to make any sense.
My only question is do Americans support the idea that all our votes should count equally in determining political power? And that the majority of American voters should determine who gets to wield the majority of political power?
 

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
One thing I have come to understand is that a large percentage of republican voters refuse to believe the actual policy positions of elected republicans. There has been reporting about focus groups or interviews with republican voters where they are told hey this is what so and so wants to do, now the republican voters don't support what so and so wants to do, and so they refuse to believe so so actually supports the policy he/she clearly supports. Like elected republicans at the national level really don't support popular policies.

I have long held that most republican voters don't really care about policy.
 

Brown echo

If u are not alive than for sure truth is not real
One thing I have come to understand is that a large percentage of republican voters refuse to believe the actual policy positions of elected republicans. There has been reporting about focus groups or interviews with republican voters where they are told hey this is what so and so wants to do, now the republican voters don't support what so and so wants to do, and so they refuse to believe so so actually supports the policy he/she clearly supports. Like elected republicans at the national level really don't support popular policies.

I have long held that most republican voters don't really care about policy.
The great problem is that the facts don't vote people do.
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
This is all nonsense to me. First off there is no peaceful way to break up a nation. There is no peaceful way to divide resources. And most importantly, Americans aren't that ideologically or culturally distinct from one another for this idea to make any sense.
My only question is do Americans support the idea that all our votes should count equally in determining political power? And that the majority of American voters should determine who gets to wield the majority of political power?
Why not? Canada almost broke up but narrowly survived Quebec's vote whether to secede. You seem unaware that Democrats completely controlled Congress for 40 years. They lost control because they started pushing for things large numbers of Americans disagreed with. Now you're saying it's unfair that your side isn't in control. Get control by getting out the vote. If your policies don't motivate enough people to vote for your party that's on you. And pay attention to what's going on. There are enough Democrats moving into Texas to seriously change that state's voting patterns soon. A Republican winning the presidency already has to overcome the electoral votes of California, New York, and Illinois. Throw in Texas and Republicans may never win. You say it's unfair that the majority doesn't control policy. Presidential elections come down to a handful of swing states. Convince those people that your policies are better. Trump won in states that had voted Democratic for decades. But enough of their voters felt they weren't being well served by their own party so they gave Trump a chance. Elections have consequences. If you only want one party rule are you going to throw out the Constitution? Elections? And please don't come back at me with Republicans don't believe this or that, blah blah blah. That's intellectually lazy. Instead of always attacking Republicans you need to examine what works to get votes. Bill Clinton did. Most people don't want extremes. Somewhere in the middle wins elections.
 
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tonyexpress

Whac-A-Troll Patrol
Staff member
China Censors Debate, Drops Signal During Pence Coronavirus Remarks

Nathan VanderKlippe, a Beijing correspondent for Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper, noted on Twitter that the CNN signal was cut during the debate. He posted a picture of the interruption, showing a screen reading: "No signal, please stand by." VanderKlippe wrote: "China censored Pence's comments on China. Signal returned when Harris began talking again."

Obvious who the commies want in office.
 

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
Why not? Canada almost broke up but narrowly survived Quebec's vote whether to secede. You seem unaware that Democrats completely controlled Congress for 40 years. They lost control because they started pushing for things large numbers of Americans disagreed with. Now you're saying it's unfair that your side isn't in control. Get control by getting out the vote. If your policies don't motivate enough people to vote for your party that's on you. And pay attention to what's going on. There are enough Democrats moving into Texas to seriously change that state's voting patterns soon. A Republican winning the presidency already has to overcome the electoral votes of California, New York, and Illinois. Throw in Texas and Republicans may never win. You say it's unfair that the majority doesn't control policy. Presidential elections come down to a handful of swing states. Convince those people that your policies are better. Trump won in states that had voted Democratic for decades. But enough of their voters felt they weren't being well served by their own party so they gave Trump a chance. Elections have consequences. If you only want one party rule are you going to throw out the Constitution? Elections? And please don't come back at me with Republicans don't believe this or that, blah blah blah. That's intellectually lazy. Instead of always attacking Republicans you need to examine what works to get votes. Bill Clinton did. Most people don't want extremes. Somewhere in the middle wins elections.
You are completely misunderstanding my posts. I said nothing about it being unfair if Democrats aren't in charge. My post said as American voters do we agree that all our votes should count equally in determining who has political power. I also said as American voters can we agree that whomever the majority of American voters support they should wield the majority of the political power.

For example should a political party in a state be able to shield itself from the will of the majority of voters? For example there is a US state that in 2018 had 99 state assembly seats up. And one party in that election received 52.99% of the total votes, yet those voters only elected 36 state assembly seats, the other party received 44% of the total votes and those voters elected 63 state assembly seats. To me no matter the party, no matter the state, the will of 53% of the voters should trump the will of 44% of voters in deciding who has political power in that state. Such a result is anti American voters.

As far as the idea of America breaking up, it just doesn't make sense. The nation is far less divided than its really ever been in many ways. And there is no way right now a state or a collection of states can vote themselves out of the united states and that not cause an armed conflict.
 
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refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
You and @Turdferguson are right. If the USA doesn't find someone, or something, to come together against and annihilate overseas soon, we'll be in civil war.
I have mentioned nothing about civil war because I seriously doubt if that would occur. What I think is far more likely is that we have sham elections because one party has entrenched itself in power with a minority of voters.
 

DriveInDriveOut

Inordinately Right
To me no matter the party, no matter the state, the will of 53% of the voters should trump the will of 44% of voters in deciding who has political power in that state. Such a result is anti American voters.
You think that is unamerican because you are clueless about the fundamental American concept of local governance.

A large population in Milwaukee doesn't get to choose the representatives for a small town hundreds of miles away. This is basic stuff buddy, educate yourself.
 

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
You think that is unamerican because you are clueless about the fundamental American concept of local governance.

A large population in Milwaukee doesn't get to choose the representatives for a small town hundreds of miles away. This is basic stuff buddy, educate yourself.
What you posted makes no sense. In no situation should 44% of voters get to elect 63% of state representatives while 53% of voters get to elect 36% of state reps based on a system that says to the majority of voters that because you live in this part of the state, you'll get to elect a minority of state reps and thus your individual vote in determining political power in our state only counts .67 per voter and because these other people live in another part of the state they'll get to elect the vast majority of state reps and thus their individual votes count 1.43 per voter. if someone lives in a lightly populated area, they shouldn't get to elect the majority of state reps over the majority of other voters in that state. One individual vote shouldn't count more in determining who has political power. All our votes should count the same. This is not a partisan issue.
 
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refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
It makes no sense to you because you are clueless about the fundamental American concept of local governance.
This has nothing to do with local governance. This is about state governance. No one is stopping those localities from electing a town mayor or village president or a local elected board, but creating districts in elections for the whole state that allows 44% of voters to elect 63% of state reps and 53% of voters to elect 36% of state reps is denying the majority of voters equal representation in state government. It creates a situation where 53% of voters individual votes only count .67 per voter and 44% of voters, their individual votes count 1.43 per voter. That has nothing to do with local governance. Smh. As American voters all our votes should count the same in determining political power.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
What you posted makes no sense. In no situation should 44% of voters get to elect 63% of state representatives while 53% of voters get to elect 36% of state reps based on a system that says to the majority of voters that because you live in this part of the state, you'll get to elect a minority of state reps and thus your individual vote in determining political power in our state only counts .67 per voter and because these other people live in another part of the state they'll get to elect the vast majority of state reps and thus their individual votes count 1.43 per voter. if someone lives in a lightly populated area, they shouldn't get to elect the majority of state reps over the majority of other voters in that state. One individual vote shouldn't count more in determining who has political power. All our votes should count the same. This is not a partisan issue.
Works both ways. Much of Illinois is conservative yet Chicago dominates the state.
 
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