ajblakejr
Age quod agis
I was not aware. Thank you for pointing it out.
I found the link very interesting.
I am a conservative.
The difference between Conservatives and Liberals
- Thread starter Overpaid Union Thug
- Start date
I was not aware. Thank you for pointing it out.
I found the link very interesting.
I am a conservative.
TechGrrl
Space Cadet
NOT involuntary! Purely voluntary. All paid work. No coercion allowed. And it is certainly not original with me. Every community has to choose some form of governance, and some way to allow/disallow participation by those governed. We have a republic, not a direct democracy, but still we need to find some way to decide who gets to vote on the rulers. Right now, we are a 'warm body' democracy: the right to vote is yours if you are a citizen. You can lose that right by committing a felony, and some other ways, but by and large, you breathe, you can pull the lever.
Not sure how we would transition to my suggestion, but it seems to me that it would be better if voters had demonstrated the ability to look beyond the immediate day and defer gratification for some goal. AND demonstrated that they have at least an inkling of the need to take the needs of the entire country into account when balancing tradeoffs, rather than focusing on their own selfish needs.
Over the course of human history, there have been many many ways attempted to accomplish good governance. Right now, I am afraid that we are becoming the Republic of Gondor, only the corporations have the money.
For some years now I've felt that anyone who pays any form of tax should be eligible to vote. That includes non-citizens working here legally and high school kids working part time at McDonald's. If the government is taking part of your income, you should have a voice in how that money is spent.
But even people who don't work pay sales tax, excise tax etc.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Who was it that cried "No taxation without representation?"
Excellent point Jones!
And where would the money come from to pay these people? Taxes? We're right back to coercion and servitude again as those who pay the taxes are forced to serve the economic betterment of others. We don't live in a voluntaryist or mutualist world so all means are achieved via force compliance. If we did live in such world, your idea would be welcomed and place in the, wait for it, "free market" and then those who wanted or desired could freely choose such devices.
How is your idea, noble intent it may be, any different from a "Gondorian" corporation being granted priviledge (monopoly) in return for a specific service (function in the State's Central Planed economy) to the Steward and this includes State Salvation from the Steward via the pockets of the masses when the wheels of the corporation start coming off because the very corporation took off the lugnuts themselves! Borrowing your LOTR's analogy which I thought was pretty slick.
That's a very good observation IMO and being that Tolkin's tale was as much political, economic commentary as it was pure fantasy for the kiddies. I'm sure the head orcs of Mordor would scream bloody murder if I dare point out that your observation is a stinging indictment of State Capitialism which they love and has nothing to do with free market, the strong emphasis being on the word "FREE" meaning unbound from all forms of coercion.
The way to escape a cage is to loosen the bars, not tighten their grip!
And if you think I'm leaving out the Blue State Orcs?
Not a chance!
island1fox
Well-Known Member
Is it the age,the person or the process that we have the most problems regarding voting.I for one believe the process as it continues to evolve should be closely scutinized.
Election day when I was a much younger person was on one day with long hours. Absentee ballots were controlled to people being out of the country and the military.
Now we have a very high % of absentee ballots ---some counted some do not.
Some military ballots for unknown reasons never get counted.
In Philadelphia Radical Black Panthers stood outside an election place with bats in their hands to intimidate white voters. When they were arrested and went to trial ----Obama's AG Holder had the case dropped.
Acorn has criminal investigations ongoing in numerous states for voter registration fraud.
In the state of Washington recently in a very close race for governor -a few hundred vote difference ---it was discovered that over 6,000 dead people had voted in the very liberal Seattle area(some may claim all are brain dead there anyway)
I think at 18 0n election day if you care enough to get out of bed --be informed and involved --it is a very good thing --BUT --with the last election being allowed to register AND VOTE before election day at a Jon Bon Jovi or Bruce Springstien concert is insane ----many of those people who were enticed to vote had no idea of the issues.
I was in a very liberal city having Breakfast one sat morning before election day--a group of what looked to be "soccer moms" with their daugters were raving about OBAMA. One ot the women stated she works in an old age home and had already registered and VOTED for about 75 of the elderly patients she cared for .
Elections in the U.S. are usually very close with the country basically evenly split ----voter fraud is very real, can sway elections and must be looked at much closer.
At many airports in the last election -such as all California Airports you could vote weeks before election day. I know many people that spend 6 months in one state and live 6 months in a different one ---example N.Y. and Florida ----there is no cross check for people that have two legal residence addresses -they can register and vote twice in multiple states .
Having more people vote is great --but the further we get from one "election day" the more people will scam the system.
Every vote does count ----legal or not!!
1989
Well-Known Member
I for one believe the process as it continues to evolve should be closely scutinized.
Election day when I was a much younger person was on one day with long hours. Absentee ballots were controlled to people being out of the country and the military.
Now we have a very high % of absentee ballots ---some counted some do not.
Some military ballots for unknown reasons never get counted.
In Philadelphia Radical Black Panthers stood outside an election place with bats in their hands to intimidate white voters. When they were arrested and went to trial ----Obama's AG Holder had the case dropped.
Acorn has criminal investigations ongoing in numerous states for voter registration fraud.
In the state of Washington recently in a very close race for governor -a few hundred vote difference ---it was discovered that over 6,000 dead people had voted in the very liberal Seattle area(some may claim all are brain dead there anyway)
Liberals cried foul in 2004 until the 3rd recount and they finally skewed the
vote their way. I am surprised only 6000 dead people voted in 2008. Liberals and voter fraud go hand in hand in Washington state.
I think at 18 0n election day if you care enough to get out of bed --be informed and involved --it is a very good thing --BUT --with the last election being allowed to register AND VOTE before election day at a Jon Bon Jovi or Bruce Springstien concert is insane ----many of those people who were enticed to vote had no idea of the issues.
I was in a very liberal city having Breakfast one sat morning before election day--a group of what looked to be "soccer moms" with their daugters were raving about OBAMA. One ot the women stated she works in an old age home and had already registered and VOTED for about 75 of the elderly patients she cared for .
Elections in the U.S. are usually very close with the country basically evenly split ----voter fraud is very real, can sway elections and must be looked at much closer.
At many airports in the last election -such as all California Airports you could vote weeks before election day. I know many people that spend 6 months in one state and live 6 months in a different one ---example N.Y. and Florida ----there is no cross check for people that have two legal residence addresses -they can register and vote twice in multiple states .
Having more people vote is great --but the further we get from one "election day" the more people will scam the system.
Every vote does count ----legal or not!!
diesel96
Well-Known Member
I for one believe the process as it continues to evolve should be closely scutinized.
Election day when I was a much younger person was on one day with long hours. Absentee ballots were controlled to people being out of the country and the military.
Now we have a very high % of absentee ballots ---some counted some do not.
Some military ballots for unknown reasons never get counted.
In Philadelphia Radical Black Panthers stood outside an election place with bats in their hands to intimidate white voters. When they were arrested and went to trial ----Obama's AG Holder had the case dropped.
Acorn has criminal investigations ongoing in numerous states for voter registration fraud.
In the state of Washington recently in a very close race for governor -a few hundred vote difference ---it was discovered that over 6,000 dead people had voted in the very liberal Seattle area(some may claim all are brain dead there anyway)
I think at 18 0n election day if you care enough to get out of bed --be informed and involved --it is a very good thing --BUT --with the last election being allowed to register AND VOTE before election day at a Jon Bon Jovi or Bruce Springstien concert is insane ----many of those people who were enticed to vote had no idea of the issues.
I was in a very liberal city having Breakfast one sat morning before election day--a group of what looked to be "soccer moms" with their daugters were raving about OBAMA. One ot the women stated she works in an old age home and had already registered and VOTED for about 75 of the elderly patients she cared for .
Elections in the U.S. are usually very close with the country basically evenly split ----voter fraud is very real, can sway elections and must be looked at much closer.
At many airports in the last election -such as all California Airports you could vote weeks before election day. I know many people that spend 6 months in one state and live 6 months in a different one ---example N.Y. and Florida ----there is no cross check for people that have two legal residence addresses -they can register and vote twice in multiple states .
Having more people vote is great --but the further we get from one "election day" the more people will scam the system.
Every vote does count ----legal or not!!
Liberal this, ACORN that, Black Panthers, absentee's, Soccer Moms, Concert Fans.....Man, cut to the chase. Forget about the 2000 election? The biggest fraud in election history. How about the 2004 Election fraud in Ohio, entailing 350,000 voters.What about Diebold Electronic voting machine controversy and it's CEO holding fundraisers for then 2nd term seeking Bush vowing a victory. There's alot you leave out for someone who claims to be Independent....But then again, I'd be embarrassed to call myself a Republican also....
1989
Well-Known Member
What about Diebold Electronic voting machine controversy and it's CEO holding fundraisers for then 2nd term seeking Bush vowing a victory. There's alot you leave out for someone who claims to be Independent....But then again, I'd be embarrassed to call myself a Republican also....
You are right we need to get all the criminals out of politics. OOPS...That means there may only be one democrate standing. Don't worry i'll try to find at least one.
I was actually just considering income tax, but over makes a good point. In addition I'm sure you pay property tax on your house, car, etc.
Overpaid Union Thug
Well-Known Member
Its the lack of responsibility that makes me wish the voting age was higher. Kids just don't have the life experiences anymore that lead to good judgement.
TechGrrl
Space Cadet
Uh, "The Curious Republic of Gondor" was a story by Mark Twain where he described a fictional country where the vote was awarded depending on a person's education, and also on their monetary worth. Twain was clearly pointing out that the difference between the two kinds of votes were that the ones based on knowledge and education were 'immortal' and those based on money in pocket were 'mortal', since risky behavior could result in the loss of money. The story was utopian, in the sense that Twain indicated that education and knowledge were more highly valued than mere money.
My cynicism is that we have a perverted version of that republic, in that monied special interests control our political process, not the individual voter.
It's available in Project Guttenberg if you'd like to read it.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I'll look for it! Project Guttenberg didn't show it in the list they had but I'll look again and to my surprise, nothing at googlebooks either. When did he write this and the reason I ask is that just after the civil war he became a republican but in his latter years he became a solid democrat over his fear the republicans were trying to establish a type of monarchy. IMO this has been done but what he may not have counted on was the democrat party helping the efforts along the way. The Presidency has become a power unto itself these days.
As to your cynicism of the perversion of the republic? Spot on! Couldn't agree more. The irony that seems to get lost is that the whole concept of corporations are antithetical to free markets and as such in light of the US courts via the 14th amendment making them a legal person with rights, they are again antithetical to a truly free society.
Roderick Long, philosophy professor at Auburn University and a self described left libertarian expanded this contrast of corporations to free markets very well IMO and you might enjoy also.
Wendy McElroy presents a simple but eloqent answer that IMO should be given wider discussion (across society, not just here) but it's obvious her ideas threaten both the larger central state and the corp. apparatus that is it's silent partner. Utopian maybe but then so was at one time going to the moon and flying in the air like birds!
Take care!
TechGrrl
Space Cadet
just google "republic of gondor" and twain...
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Republic of Gondor in it's entirety.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3192/3192-h/3192-h.htm
I enjoyed the essay by Roderick Long
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/11...orations-versus-market-or-whip-conflation-now
The short article by is a concise and accurate (IMO) explanation of an anarcho-capitalist.
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1321
Salutes to wkmac and techgirl on goodreads.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3192/3192-h/3192-h.htm
I enjoyed the essay by Roderick Long
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/11...orations-versus-market-or-whip-conflation-now
The short article by is a concise and accurate (IMO) explanation of an anarcho-capitalist.
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1321
Salutes to wkmac and techgirl on goodreads.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
You might also enjoy thumbing through "Markets, Not Capitalism" if you liked Wendy and Roderick's piece. The book is open source obviously and IMO has many good reads. Gary Chartier, one of the book editors is at this moment scheduled to be on John Stossel's show this Thursday night on Fox Business.
I say at this moment because I talked with Gary over the weekend and he told me it's not completely firm. I think the issue is Stossel may go with a different guest and issue but we'll see. One of the rare times I'm recording just in case.
I've posted this elsewhere but if you've not seen it and curious as to a sample of Gary's argument, this short segment from Reason TV is pretty good.
ImWaitingForTheDay
Annoy a conservative....Think for yourself
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