The Euro death watch

[brett636]

Brett, what I want is for the IRS to be scrapped and replaced with the Fair Tax.

I'll take my personal tax picture as an example. I grossed $65K yet only had taxable income of $48K and as a result received a modest refund ($1.5K).

Give me my whole paycheck and tax me at 23%.

Being a fairtax supporter myself I know where you are coming from. I just don't know if we will ever get to that point.

Fair Tax may eliminate the genreal public at large from direct contact with the IRS but they won't go away. They still have a mission from all the other various taxes to administer and they will also take on administration over collection of the sales tax under the Fair Tax system. People wrongly think the IRS came into being in 1913' but it was Lincoln under a 1862' Revenue Act that led to the creation of what we know today as IRS. People are also wrong in thinking there was no income tax before 1913' but Lincoln again can claim that honor in creating the income tax within the Revenue Tax Act of 1861'.

When we got our present income tax in1913', most wage earners were never effected but that began to change after the passage of the Victory Tax Act in 1942' and changed yet again after the Treasury Reorganization Plan of 1950' and the creation of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954' which replaced the IRC of 1939'. Later Reorganizations and the Code of 1986' have yet again changed the nature and function of the IRS and the Income Tax as we know it.

Sometimes you are as bad as TOS when it comes to facts and how you present them. The income tax was instituted during the civil war as a means to pay for the war, but was repealed once the tax was no longer necessary. It was the democrats in later years that attempted to reinstate the income tax following Karl Marx's call for a highly progressive income tax, but was struck down by the Supreme Court in 1894 (Pollock v. Farmers Loan and Trust Co.). It wasn't until the democrats were again in power in 1913 that they went with the amendment route with the income tax selling it as a tax that would only affect the very rich, and was able to ratify it on that basis. The income tax we suffer under today is purely the result of the democrat's class warfare tactics and their never ending bid to put every American under the increasingly crushing thumb of the government.

 

[wkmac]

Sometimes you are as bad as TOS when it comes to facts and how you present them. The income tax was instituted during the civil war as a means to pay for the war, but was repealed once the tax was no longer necessary. It was the democrats in later years that attempted to reinstate the income tax following Karl Marx's call for a highly progressive income tax, but was struck down by the Supreme Court in 1894 (Pollock v. Farmers Loan and Trust Co.). It wasn't until the democrats were again in power in 1913 that they went with the amendment route with the income tax selling it as a tax that would only affect the very rich, and was able to ratify it on that basis. The income tax we suffer under today is purely the result of the democrat's class warfare tactics and their never ending bid to put every American under the increasingly crushing thumb of the government.

I posted the link to IRS who covered that history. Look at my post again and follow the link at the words in red, "the condensed version". Guess you just ignored the link because your post shows it. If anyone is doing the TOS thingy........

It was the democrats in later years that attempted to reinstate the income tax following Karl Marx's call for a highly progressive income tax

So if Marx called for the income tax in his 1848' manifesto, 13 years later (1861') a republican President and Congress instituted an income tax, how do you go from Marx straight to the democrats when it comes to placing blame? Not that at some level democrats don't share blame too. And if the republicans are so anti-Marx and the income tax is so Marxist, how come the republicans when they controlled literally all 3 branches of our gov't didn't use their power to end the income tax? The republican opposition to the FairTax when Linder and Boortz first started pushing it should be proof alone that the income tax is going nowhere. Some only grabbed onto the Fairtax or the 999 plan as an election gimmick in the hopes of fooling enough voters that they might regain power but mark my word, even if those messiahs you place your faith in were to get elected, the income tax will still hold the day no matter what. I'm not even convinced Ron Paul can get rid of it.

Like I've said and will continue to say:

Democrats and Republicans, Two Wings of the same Bird of Prey!

And Marx was a Johnny come lately with income tax as the Chinese in 10 CE had an income tax and the British in 1799' had an income tax. And just a point of clarification, the Chinese weren't communist in 10 CE.

 

[wkmac]

The Tea party failed and any party would, because of the system. The government would shut down if we don't have a debt limit hike every time it needed. All it is a show back and forth between reps and dems, then later after long negotiations and struggle whoa la debt limit hike voted by both parties. Deficits don't matter. If the government does some serious cuts the economy will sink(deflationary), so the solution inflate, hike whatever it takes not to cut.
My take on Bush tax cut: since 2001 the median wages didn't go up any higher in real value if you take what you could by with it (that cannot be counterfeited like "money" ) oil, gold and other commodities. If you add up inflation it's around 30 % since 2001 till now. here is one link for calculator
CPI Inflation Calculator
Most wages didn't go up that much, but my tax rate did, suddenly found myself in the higher tax bracket. In real value I make less and taxed more, it's the stealth mode that nobody talks about: inflationary taxing. So basically it already offsets the Bush tax cuts if not make it even higher taxing then before him.

 

[Just_another_day_at_work]

Even a kid from elementary school would say why they just downgraded UK to AA- right timing for Queen's Diamond Jubilee. But hey Greece has it's close to friend rating.
Egan Jones Downgrades The UK From AA To AA- | ZeroHedge

 

[klein]

Canada dismisses German criticism over Europe aid

QUEBEC CITY (Reuters) - Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty dismissed German criticism on Friday of Ottawa's high-profile opposition to bailing Europe out of its debt crisis.
"The European countries including Germany did not support the United States financially when it had its crisis in 2008. What we've been encouraging the European countries to do, the euro zone countries to do, is to deal with this issue of a firewall and recapitalizing their banks themselves," Flaherty told a news conference.

(Basically what comes around, goes around - go friend yourselves) LOL

 

[Catatonic]

I put over 50% of my investments in cash about 4 weeks ago due to the Obama-style Socialists in Western Europe inability to be fiscally responsible and reduce their long-term debt.
I'll leave it there until they face reality or their banks and/or governments become insolvent.
Then I'll be back in.
I don't believe in timing the market but the downside potential at this point far outweighs the upside.

 

[pickup]

Canada dismisses German criticism over Europe aid

QUEBEC CITY (Reuters) - Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty dismissed German criticism on Friday of Ottawa's high-profile opposition to bailing Europe out of its debt crisis.
"The European countries including Germany did not support the United States financially when it had its crisis in 2008. What we've been encouraging the European countries to do, the euro zone countries to do, is to deal with this issue of a firewall and recapitalizing their banks themselves," Flaherty told a news conference.

(Basically what comes around, goes around - go friend yourselves) LOL

Good for Canada! Seriously.

 

[pickup]

Canada dismisses German criticism over Europe aid

QUEBEC CITY (Reuters) - Canadian Finance Minister Jim Flaherty dismissed German criticism on Friday of Ottawa's high-profile opposition to bailing Europe out of its debt crisis.
"The European countries including Germany did not support the United States financially when it had its crisis in 2008. What we've been encouraging the European countries to do, the euro zone countries to do, is to deal with this issue of a firewall and recapitalizing their banks themselves," Flaherty told a news conference.

(Basically what comes around, goes around - go friend yourselves) LOL

The more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. As far as I can tell, Canada, by not being a member of the European Union , did not enjoy any of the advantages that the member states did, in regards to shipping across borders without added customs(taxes).

But now when there are disadvantages to be paid for by EU, they are looking to Canada to help foot the bill.

SCREW THEM!

I have the same advice for Merkel that she dispensed to the Greeks, "Devalue internally".

I have to give the Germans credit for this European Union by the way. At its best they prosper, because Germany is very productive with relatively low unemployment rates. Ahh but low unemployment rates are linked to inflation which the Germans hate(think Weimar republic). By having the European Union, they can essentially outsource their extra production needs to member states with high unemployment(low wages) and bring this production into their country without any customs. This helps Germany power its economic engine at a high level without the inflation that would normally accompany it.

At its worst the European union doing badly means a lower value for the Euro which helps Germany with its exports. If Germany needs to help the other states a bit in return for them tightening their belts and giving Germany that cheap excess production, it's a good deal.

But Germany ain't stupid, they will only help if the benefits outweigh the cost. Even better, get countries like Canada to throw into the kitty. I understand that Merkel is eyeing the sovereign wealth fund of Norway (about 300 billion dollars , maybe more) for some help. And Norway , even though it is not a member of the E.U, does benefit somewhat from enjoying many of the same benefits because it is a party to the EEA (European Economic Area). So , maybe you can make a case for countries like Norway to share the pain, but to ask Canada??? Sheer Chutzpah!


But but BUT.... the European Union at its very very worst, member countries leaving(whether asked to or wanting to) and hence a smaller union. Or the very VERY worst, the total dissolution of the club which would leave Germany in particular, very very screwed.


I went out on some limbs here so my analysis might be suspect. Sue me!

 

[klein]

I have to give you credit pickup, you sure know what you're talking about, and you know world politics pretty well, even it's history.

 

[pickup]

I have to give you credit pickup, you sure know what you're talking about, and you know world politics pretty well, even it's history.

AWWW!, thanks for the compliment.

As someone said about me and Upstate at one point, it looks like we have a "bromance" going on.

Let's both enjoy it while we can because we both know the honeymoon won't last.

 

[bbsam]

What I remember is that in 2008, Europe was rather smug about the financial meltdown in the U.S. Six months later they realized that they were intricately tied to that meltdown. Before we "let Europe take care of itself", I'd like to get a fair sense of what the implications for the U.S. before we too are forced to eat crow in a bitter sauce of smugness. Any ideas?

 

[Catatonic]

What I remember is that in 2008, Europe was rather smug about the financial meltdown in the U.S. Six months later they realized that they were intricately tied to that meltdown. Before we "let Europe take care of itself", I'd like to get a fair sense of what the implications for the U.S. before we too are forced to eat crow in a bitter sauce of smugness. Any ideas?

It is indeed a global economy.
However, this fundamentally comes down to supporting Socialism gone too far.
These countries have to pull back from their extensive, over-reaching Social programs.
That is the fundamental problem in Western Europe.

 

[pickup]

What I remember is that in 2008, Europe was rather smug about the financial meltdown in the U.S. Six months later they realized that they were intricately tied to that meltdown. Before we "let Europe take care of itself", I'd like to get a fair sense of what the implications for the U.S. before we too are forced to eat crow in a bitter sauce of smugness. Any ideas?

Well, if the U.S is asked to help, it would have to do so by borrowing more. Assuming the extra borrowing would be from China, why not eliminate the middle man and the interest and have the E.U. proceed straight to China to ask for help.

 

[bbsam]

It is indeed a global economy.
However, this fundamentally comes down to supporting Socialism gone too far.
These countries have to pull back from their extensive, over-reaching Social programs.
That is the fundamental problem in Western Europe.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting supporting the status quo. Changes obviously have to occur. But it does seem that alot of times we don't engage when perhaps we should. What would Eatern Europe look like today if we had entered into strong economic agreements with Russia when the Soviet Union imploded? The stakes may too large to take any measure of shautzenfreuden (sp?) at this juncture, something Europe may have been smarter to acknowledge in 2008.

 

[wkmac]

It is indeed a global economy.
However, this fundamentally comes down to supporting Socialism gone too far.
These countries have to pull back from their extensive, over-reaching Social programs.
That is the fundamental problem in Western Europe.

Sure thankful America doesn't have a state socialism problem. We should be indebted to our captains of capitalism!

OH WAIT, WE ARE!

 

[bbsam]

Well, if the U.S is asked to help, it would have to do so by borrowing more. Assuming the extra borrowing would be from China, why not eliminate the middle man and the interest and have the E.U. proceed straight to China to ask for help.

That's assuming that is the only economic tool at our disposal which I am not sure of.

 

[bbsam]

Sure thankful America doesn't have a state socialism problem. We should be indebted to our captains of capitalism!

OH WAIT, WE ARE!

Do the insurance companies in this country realize that they are the captains and directors of socialism?

 

[wkmac]

Do the insurance companies in this country realize that they are the captains and directors of socialism?

SSSHHHHHH! It's suppose to be a secret, wait how do we know?

 

[brett636]

I posted the link to IRS who covered that history. Look at my post again and follow the link at the words in red, "the condensed version". Guess you just ignored the link because your post shows it. If anyone is doing the TOS thingy........

I read very few of your posts, and click on almost none of your links. When I do they are usually the opposite of what you claim and when I call you out on it you fail to explain why. Your post made it seem like the republicans invented the income tax when they did not, and I was simply filling in the blanks you conveniently left out.

So if Marx called for the income tax in his 1848' manifesto, 13 years later (1861') a republican President and Congress instituted an income tax, how do you go from Marx straight to the democrats when it comes to placing blame? Not that at some level democrats don't share blame too. And if the republicans are so anti-Marx and the income tax is so Marxist, how come the republicans when they controlled literally all 3 branches of our gov't didn't use their power to end the income tax? The republican opposition to the FairTax when Linder and Boortz first started pushing it should be proof alone that the income tax is going nowhere. Some only grabbed onto the Fairtax or the 999 plan as an election gimmick in the hopes of fooling enough voters that they might regain power but mark my word, even if those messiahs you place your faith in were to get elected, the income tax will still hold the day no matter what. I'm not even convinced Ron Paul can get rid of it.

Like I've said and will continue to say:



And Marx was a Johnny come lately with income tax as the Chinese in 10 CE had an income tax and the British in 1799' had an income tax. And just a point of clarification, the Chinese weren't communist in 10 CE.

The republicans did institute an income tax in 1861, but what major event was taking place in 1861? If you guessed the civil war you would be correct. The most bloody war in American history was underway, and wars are expensive. To cover the war costs the republicans instituted an income tax to help pay for it promising to repeal it once the war was over, and they did. The democrats desire to institute an income tax was not meant as a means to bring the country together, but to use it as a divider to play the class warfare game. Sometimes looking into intent is a good idea before making assumptions that are just plain wrong.

I will agree with you that the income tax is a difficult system to remove. Too many people are too used to the way the system works today despite the fact that few actually understand it. I prepared tax returns professionally for 6 years and met many people who relied on their income tax return to fund their summer vacation or buy a new car, tv, etc. Its a system designed to breed complacency and ignorance to the benefit of the politicians, and honestly I don't see it going away in my lifetime. That doesn't mean I won't continue to support its replacement with a better system like the fair tax or Herman Cain's brilliant 999 plan.

 

[bbsam]

LOL! Herman Cain...999...brilliant! Priceless!