The Immigration Issue

[wily_old_vet]

Slothrup-Some thoughts please. Seems the Heritage Foundation (yeah I know, it's a dreaded conservative think tank) found some interesting provisions in the Senate immigration bill. I'm curious if you think these are fair and equitable.

1. The bill supposedly gives protection to American workers, saying that new immigrants wouldn't take their jobs but the definition of "US Worker" includes temporary guest workers. This does not protect US workers. FAIR?

2. It extends the Davis-Bacon Act to pay "prevailing wages" to ALL temporary guest workers. American workers only have this protection on federal job sites. FAIR?

3. Guest farmworkers can't be fired except for "just cause" where American farmworkers can be fired for any reason. FAIR?


Just so you don't go screaming about how I just did a cut and paste job, I read this inforation in the column of Robert Novak, a GASP conservative.

 

[tieguy]

Or perhaps she will take a position you can stand behind.



d

Ugh. for some reason large vats of wrinkled cellulite come to mind.

 

[Slothrop]

wily,

I haven't found the time to actually read the Senate bill. It probably won't pass in its current form, in any case, and a compromise has to be reached with the House.

I won't comment on Novak's reporting of Robert Rector's work. I do find some of his figures grossly misleading.

Immigration is what has built this country and kept it dynamic. The arguments I have heard here opposing immigration all seem to be racist in origin.

 

[moreluck]

"Immigration is what has built this country and kept it dynamic. The arguments I have heard here opposing immigration all seem to be racist in origin."
******************
TS...that's where you are mistaken. People here don't oppose immigration.....they oppose Illegal immigration. Big difference!!

 

[wily_old_vet]

Amen Moreluck Why is it racist to want people, of whatever nationality, who are entering our country to do so legally?

Slothrup- Under your reasoning are the Mexican immigration laws racist? Would you object if we adopted their laws? And how would you deal with Fox, who will not even admit that his people enter our country ILLEGALLY?

 

[Slothrop]

Amen Moreluck Why is it racist to want people, of whatever nationality, who are entering our country to do so legally?

Slothrup- Under your reasoning are the Mexican immigration laws racist? Would you object if we adopted their laws? And how would you deal with Fox, who will not even admit that his people enter our country ILLEGALLY?

wily, the problem is not so simple. There are millions here who are staying no matter what. They can be considered a part of America or apart from America, the choice is ours.

My stance has always been:
1) enforce the laws we have, especially protect our border, the entire border. Fund it.
2)allow a path towards citizenship for those already here, working, law abiding, and willing to learn English.
3)Punish lawbreakers, especially the corporations that enable this to happen. Put chief executives in jail if they hire people not eligible to work in the USA. That'll stop it...no more $500 fines.

If you really want to solve the problem, raise Mexico's standard of living up to what the poverty level is here, then you won't have people willing to leave their home and risk their life to better their family. That should never be a crime.

Fox ran on a platform that promised easier access to American jobs, and an easier path for Mexicans to immigrate to America if they so desired. Sept 11 changed that, but not one terrorist entered through Mexico.

There are many reasons to encourage immigration from Mexico and Central America, a lot of them security based. I'd be wasteing my time here. explaining them. PM me if you really care.

 

[moreluck]

I guess it was about a week or so ago up in the L.A. area, 7,000 people were sworn in as new Americans. I applaud these folks and welcome them to our country. They took the proper roads to citizenship. I imagine it was a moving experience with the Pledge of Allegience. I'll bet those people could answer more questions about American history than I could. I've forgotten so much since high school history.

Anyway, on TV they all looked extremely excited about their new country.

 

[DS]

Thats right more,and eventually every one of them will buy a car.I know how much you like driving in LA.

 

[tieguy]

My stance has always been:
1) enforce the laws we have, especially protect our border, the entire border. Fund it.
2)allow a path towards citizenship for those already here, working, law abiding, and willing to learn English.
3)Punish lawbreakers, especially the corporations that enable this to happen. Put chief executives in jail if they hire people not eligible to work in the USA. That'll stop it...no more $500 fines.

Thats funny same thing I said and yet you called me a phobe and a racist.


If you really want to solve the problem, raise Mexico's standard of living up to what the poverty level is here, then you won't have people willing to leave their home and risk their life to better their family. That should never be a crime.

Mute point I can't control Mexicos standard of living only mexico can.

Fox ran on a platform that promised easier access to American jobs, and an easier path for Mexicans to immigrate to America if they so desired. Sept 11 changed that, but not one terrorist entered through Mexico.

Fox does not have the right to promise easier access to another country.
We have tightened up the legal ways for terrorists to enter this country. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that terrorists who want to attack us will be more likely to use illegal means. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the mexican border is an easy way to cross. The news tells us this each night. There was a time when we would never have dreamed that terrorists would fly planes into the twin towers and bring them down. At that point you would have said "it has never happened before".

There are many reasons to encourage immigration from Mexico and Central America, a lot of them security based. I'd be wasteing my time here. explaining them. PM me if you really care.

And hence my point . You have no problem attacking other posters here calling them xenophobes and racists when you have no basis for such an outrageous accusation. It is a typical liberal ploy though to scream racist whenever you are called upon to try to take a position on an issue that has a lot more going on with it then the color of ones skin. You have no problem attacking other posters but when called upon to take a position and to state your case you ask that you be PM'd so you can speak in private. You are a coward. If you're really interested in hanging out on this board then do so, state your position support your position and take the stupid xenophobe/racist nicknames out of the discussion. What an insult to everyone here to think you can quickly discount their opinions by calling them a racist. You are and always have been the true racist because you the white carpetbagger liberal do gooder thinks you do a person of color justice by telling them that the other white person who is not a liberal will keep them down. You destroy their pride in thierselves , suck out their life and fill them up with unwarranted hate. And then you have the gall to blame me for destroying their hope,opportunity and feeling of self worth. The white liberal should run for grand dragon of the kKK they deserve the title more than the ignorant cracker who is too stupid to know any better.

 

[DS]

tie you put a lot of effort into that...
do you have an opinion on the issue?

 

[Slothrop]

My stance has always been:
1) enforce the laws we have, especially protect our border, the entire border. Fund it.
2)allow a path towards citizenship for those already here, working, law abiding, and willing to learn English.
3)Punish lawbreakers, especially the corporations that enable this to happen. Put chief executives in jail if they hire people not eligible to work in the USA. That'll stop it...no more $500 fines.

Thats funny same thing I said and yet you called me a phobe and a racist.

Show me where you said that. I believe you are lying.

Mute point I can't control Mexicos standard of living only mexico can.

I believe you mean 'moot' point, and the USA can most definitely effect the standard of living in Mexico.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that terrorists who want to attack us will be more likely to use illegal means. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the mexican border is an easy way to cross.

Rocket scientist you aren't, that's for sure. One can easily make the arguement that having a border where millions of people enter illegally makes it easier for criminal elements to control and enter. If you think the crossing is easy, join me for hike in the AZ desert. If we allowed a legal means for the migration of people, and a legal means to remain in the country, criminals would have less power in the barrio.

The fact remains that not one known terrorist has entered across the Mexican border. They have flown first class into Logan, or entered through Canada.

 

[Slothrop]

tie you put a lot of effort into that...
do you have an opinion on the issue?

ds, I'll save you the trouble. Here is a collection of tie's opinions:

We should not reward those who were successfull in sneaking across our borders with citizenship.

its good to know there are economic benifits to illegal immigration. Despite that I think we need to control our borders to ensure we do not have terrorist sneaking across.

Build the fence and control it.

You couldn't dispute the point that Santa Anna was a terrorist who came across the mexican border and terrorized american settlers therefore you chose to resort to name calling as a last desperate defense.
Seal the border. Protect americans. Control the border to squelch what has become a resurgence of the wild wild west. Then talk about what we should do with those who crossed before we sealed the border.

I really don't care about the immigration side of this debate though I was thrilled to see us finally arrest a major employer the other day.

I believe we have serious security issues with the mexican border. I believe its time to build the fence and control who comes through. The 12 million that got through before we sealed the border can die of old age for all I care.

Its clear that you are having a difficult time focusing on this issue. Let me help you. I am a xenophobe. I will sign my post xenophobe. That should help you focus on the issues at hand rather than trying to spend all your time finding a label for me.

I think we close the borders first. Squash the wild west crime spree along the border then discusss the immigration issue. Until then there is nothing stopping terrorists from sneaking across our border.

As for breaking up families its real simple if the whole family is here illegally then deport them all.

If they were born here due to their mother illegally entering the country then the child should not earn status as an american born citizen. That is the biggest scam the liberals have sold us to complicate the immigration issue.

sure for those legally born here. not for those illegally born here. Kick them out.

I didn't know you were allowed dual citizenship. my understanding has been you have to renounce any other citizenship when you take the US oath.

I have been very clear on the point that I don't begrudge anyone seeking a better life and that my primary concern all along has been our security.

Clear as mud!

 

[tieguy]

ds, I'll save you the trouble. Here is a collection of tie's opinions:



Clear as mud!

Absolutely despite your best efforts to muddy them. Then lo and behold all of a sudden you claim to be for controlling the border even though you have been shooting anyone who spoke for controlling border as being a xenophobe and sadly; lately your worst moment when you threw up the liberal defense shield by yelling racism. Even here again we see your style of posting at its best. Do you stand up and try to support your position? Do we see you try to clarify any points you feel we may have misunderstood? No you try to attack another poster instead. Thats because Susan my dear you have no principles , no morals , no position. You have no soul. You are a political termite. Your only purpose here is to try to eat at and destroy everyone elses foundation.

 

[tieguy]

tie you put a lot of effort into that...
do you have an opinion on the issue?

Actually I do. Slothrope has no position other than to attack everyone elses. Slothrope went as low as she could when she threw out the racist word.
Ms. Susan is an olympic sewer swimmer.

 

[Slothrop]

control doesn't equate to close.

looks like you are wallowing in some of that mud that defines your position.

 

[tieguy]

Now Now I was kind of enjoying the new conservative version of susan. You have to be able to close off the border to control access across the border. Don't start waivering on your new position already.

 

[Slothrop]

tie,

Find some legs and take a stand. Closed border or open border? All borders or just Mexico? Fight terrorism or stop migration?

still waiting for you to point out where you said:

1) enforce the laws we have, especially protect our border, the entire border. Fund it.
2)allow a path towards citizenship for those already here, working, law abiding, and willing to learn English.
3)Punish lawbreakers, especially the corporations that enable this to happen. Put chief executives in jail if they hire people not eligible to work in the USA. That'll stop it...no more $500 fines.

I've searched the entire thread, and you've yet to spell out your solution, beyond 'close the borders'.

See if you can reply without slinging some of that mud.

 

[tieguy]

tie,

Find some legs and take a stand. Closed border or open border?

you said you're for controlling our borders. You can't control the border until you have the ability to close them. Once you have the ability to close them you can then control who comes across. You appear to be having a hard time with this concept and therefore keep trying to make more out of it then what it is.

All borders or just Mexico?

This is the street you keep trying to take us down in order to then throw up the liberal nuke where you call us a xenophobe or a racist. I have clearly stated that I want to control our borders and keep the terrorist out. You then keep trying to get me to say that I only want to control the mexican border so that you may then label me a racist.

Fight terrorism or stop migration?

fight terrorism and eliminate illegal immigration. eliminate slow down and hamper the flow of illegal drugs into this country. Eliminate slow down and hamper the illegal smuggling and victimization of immigrants trying to sneak across the border by organized criminal enterprises. Restore the lawless border areas into lawfull border areas. Eliminate the influx of any thousands of illegal contraband items that can be smuggled across a border that is not controlled.

still waiting for you to point out where you said:

1) enforce the laws we have, especially protect our border, the entire border. Fund it.
2)allow a path towards citizenship for those already here, working, law abiding, and willing to learn English.
3)Punish lawbreakers, especially the corporations that enable this to happen. Put chief executives in jail if they hire people not eligible to work in the USA. That'll stop it...no more $500 fines.

That point I can't help you on. Whether its slinging mud or not I've made my point many times throughout this thread that we need to control the border. To control the border we have to have the means to seal it off. I've conceeded the difficulty of point two. Where you and I differ is I don't believe someone sneaking across the border illegally and having a baby here should be rewarded for their crime by granting the child citizenship.I don't believe it was ever anyones intent to reward illegal behavior with citizenship. I have also addressed point three in this thread. You're problem is point three mentions lawbreakers. Lawbreakers are also those who illegally sneak across the border. Those people you want to reward by giving them my job, my house and my future as a reward.

 

[Slothrop]

Dang tie, could you learn to close quotes and post in a legible manner? I'll be glad to point out how, if it will keep you from changing font colors, not knowing how to italicize and not knowing how to post a block quote.

So you are saying close the borders (all borders) to prove you can do it(for an undetermined length of time), then control who enters? Is this your plan, in a nutshell?

 

[wily_old_vet]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that Mexico has a huge income from oil, which is to grow larger after their ecent discovery in the Gulf and a very good income from tourism. Maybe if the government of Mexico used this income to better their standard of living their people wouldn't want to leave. How about a little conspiracy theory here. Mexico still smarts from the states of AZ, New Mexico, Texas and California once belonged to them and there are some (how large a percentage I don't know) who believe that this land should be retaken. They know they can't do this militarily so what better way than to send your poor over the borders in such large numbers that a non military takeover is begun. Just a little food for thought