Tieguy vs Canon, the arena...

[canon]

Re: What type of route is easier on your body?

Why use sarcasm or other means to incite tieguy?? He admits that he was out of line in this thread but I think you like to get under his skin.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think things between you guys can be better.

You know, I had to go back and re-read the post that started it all, and follow along to see if I was indeed trying to "incite" (which means to provoke). I thought I had explained it well enough to convey I wasn't talking about all mgmt, rather about specific ones in a thread dealing with what it's like working for UPS. Quite appropriate I thought.

Each time I "lashed out" was in direct response to some insult or blanket statement aimed to insult all teamsters (which indirectly insults me). In fact, during the first thread I repeatedly requested the insults to stop and stick to dealing with the issues. I'll debate all day long and remain civil the whole time.. but once someone starts in with personal attacks I will not yield. Granted, I did more than my share to keep things going... but by defintion I would have had to cast the first stone to be inciting. In each case, I posted the quote which I was responding to. Would love to see where I "attacked" without provocation. Easy enough to do, simply a matter of copy and paste. But be sure to include the post I was responding to.

Why should I yield? Why should I refrain from sarcasm? Is sarcasm worse than insults? For some reason, me standing up to being insulted in a public forum makes me wrong? He insults me, so I like "getting under his skin" simply because I take him to task? How does that make sense? So what if he admits he was out of line in this thread... if this were the only thread he had cast insults I could see your point.

Why does it matter if someone calls somone a name? It doesn't really. For that matter, why bother with topics? It's not like US foreign policy or UPS business strategy is going to be based on our discussions. But if we're going to agree it doesn't really matter if one person engages in insults, we also have to agree it doesn't matter if someone defends against it. The end result has to support a community where communication can exist. Where does the breakdown begin? Insult or defense? Ultimately it boils down to having too much free time. Something I'm going to address tomorrow.

I know some people were upset about the threads being hijacked with our fights... and rightfully so. For that I am sorry. If nothing else comes from all this, maybe insults and off-topic fighting will be dealt with differently in the future.

I said in an earlier post in this thread I was done with him, and I am. He can call me names all day long now and won't get a single response from me. The only reason I took the time for this post was because I do have respect for you, even if we disagree on this. Looks like we agree on Iraq politics, but not on forum politics.

It's just the internet.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tie,

With respect to this forum, I don't think anyone is quite the lightning rod for this issue as you. Although, a few posts earlier, I did open the question up to everyone, this is a thread where we are discussing your propensity for attacking people personally when they disagree with you.

The thread is titled Tieguy vs. Canon, much of the content in this thread is reasonable discourse surrounding your behavior. Many have weighed in with responses, theories and conjecture as to why you call people names and attack them and not the issue. You have defended your actions by referencing specific passages, notating unprovoked attacks on your postings, and discussing mob mentality. Certainly, you wouldn't have posted those things to support your arguments- if you didn't think that your actions were in question.

Surely, you must be aware that this thread is very much about your behavior in this forum. Coy though you may be, this is not the first time that smoke has been found in proximity to fire with respect to your reputation on this board.

Many who have contributed to this thread have also expressed their frustration with your tactics. Again, and this is important, not just your tactics in this thread, but your overall reputation in this forum. Conspicuously absent from many of these contributions, are postings calling Canon out for having a reputation of belittling folks and calling them names. Some have come to your support and had questions about Canon's motivations, but again, nobody seems to be questioning his overall reputation for personal attacks. Could it be that Canon does not have a reputation for attacking people personally? If so, is Canon responsible for that reputation, or was it given to him magically, regardless of how he posts, and what he writes. I think it is safe to say that each of us is responsible for what we post - and -ultimately responsible for our own reputation.

The nice thing about answering a question of this magnitude, is that in the world of message boards, empirical evidence is only click or two away.

Tie, I think it's clear why many of us have asked you about your behavior in this forum, what is unclear yet still, is why you behave this way.

Now, if your defense to that is to say that your reputation in Brown Cafe is undeserved, and that you are not responsible for your own postings, and that it is actually the fault of others that causes you to lash out personally -Well, that is another story.

Until such a time that you address that theory, the question about why I am asking you about your actions in this forum, and not others, is clear - Few have a greater reputation in The Brown Cafe for disrespecting others than you.

 

[Iconoclast]

ICON...I think it's just the opposite on sites. People exaggerate, bloviate, lie, fib, etc. They think they are invisible and can become whoever they want others to think they are. For example, chat rooms have people 55 yrs. old saying they are in their mid-20's. They weigh in at 430 lbs. and say they are the "athletic type"......yeah, for Sumo wrestling!

There's a ton of cow manure that comes across sites. You have to take most of it with a grain of salt.

JMHO

Moreluck,

True enough!! Seperating the wheat from the chaff is not easy in cyber space that is for sure. Taking things with a grain of salt is certainly a healthy strategy when dealing with information in the message board world. We take for granted how much is communicated when we speak to each other. So many nuances are lost in computer communication that we make up for with a furitive glance, a leveling of the brow, or a simple hand gesticulation.

 

[Channahon]

When I first joined this board, I joined as a UPSer. As I started reading the posts, it was evident that the majority of users are hourly employees, with a few management and retirees, both union and non union.

I didn't think it would matter if you are management or hourly, as I thought the board was to express oneself as related to UPS.

Taking criticism is difficult for most people, as we take pride in who we are and how we present ourselves.

Now have there been some inappropiate actions on management and hourly jobs.
Sure, they've been posted on this board.
Has advice been given for resolution, sometimes, but only the employee who has the concern, can make the difference.

It's not a perfect world within any organization. Human nature dictates our work ethic, what we choose to do for a living, what our goals are for ourselves and our families. Do all UPSer's come to work whistling and in a great mood? Some may, some may not.

We all have our opinions and knowledge of UPS and a lot is shared and good advice given on this board. However, there is some mis-information given, and you'll have that on any board.

The battle between Tie and Canon has grown to
a full blown war. As you can see by the number of viewings, their posts draw a lot of attention.
Why? Because in some way, people like conflict and want to see the next post. Maybe to see how heated things are getting, or if either Tie or Canon will retreat their positions against one another.

My personal thoughts are both Tie and Canon
are very strong individuals with their opinions and attacks on one another.


Can Tie answer questions for all management?
Nobody can do that, I don't even think Corporate managers can speak to all of management issues. Is it fair to accuse him of sidestepping issues, he may not be able to answer? Does he possess overall UPS management philosoply? Sure he does, as do most UPS management.

Canon has leadership qualities as shown by the number of supporters he has on this board. Is that because the majority of this board is union/teamsters? I would say no, it's because he is very articulate in his postings, gives a lot of thought into what he posts and how he presents himself.

I have respect for both Tie and Canon as they both work for UPS. And in having respect for both, I would think they can put some of their posts behind them. Stop the name calling and belittling of each other.

A better forum may be post the issues, have a moderator, present both sides of a debate/issue. Or conduct a poll, where everyone can participate, express a view and present the results.

Integrity, self respect and respect for others are the most important values anyone can possess. In both your personal and professional lives.

 

[tonyexpress]

Re: What type of route is easier on your body?

I know some people were upset about the threads being hijacked with our fights... and rightfully so. For that I am sorry. If nothing else comes from all this, maybe insults and off-topic fighting will be dealt with differently in the future.

Good point, there can always be something positive found in a negative situation.

I said in an earlier post in this thread I was done with him, and I am. He can call me names all day long now and won't get a single response from me. The only reason I took the time for this post was because I do have respect for you, even if we disagree on this. Looks like we agree on Iraq politics, but not on forum politics.

It's just the internet.

Let's hope Tie has learned something from this as well and just maybe the next time a debate or conversation is in order it will be insult free. As I said before both you and Tie, minus the insults are admirable contributors to this forum.

 

[tonyexpress]

Integrity, self respect and respect for others are the most important values anyone can possess. In both your personal and professional lives.

That's it in a nutshell!! And I don't mean anything by NUTshell..

Thanks Channahon!

 

[tonyexpress]

"These are anonymous vehicles of expression. Rarely do people in any on-line forum not give you their honest....."

ICON...I think it's just the opposite on sites. People exaggerate, bloviate, lie, fib, etc. They think they are invisible and can become whoever they want others to think they are. For example, chat rooms have people 55 yrs. old saying they are in their mid-20's. They weigh in at 430 lbs. and say they are the "athletic type"......yeah, for Sumo wrestling!

There's a ton of cow manure that comes across sites. You have to take most of it with a grain of salt.

JMHO

More,

Bloviate...to speak pompously...One of my favorite words.

 

[tieguy]

Tie,

With respect to this forum, I don't think anyone is quite the lightning rod for this issue as you. Although, a few posts earlier, I did open the question up to everyone,

Iconoclast in fact I am grateful that you who claim to be a long lost member of this board have suddenly started posting here to save my soul. But alas I can not take the credit for all you claim. If you have been lurking here as long as you claim then you have seen many worthy of your admonishment over the years. Yet at this time and at this place you have graciously presented yourself here to save me from my sinful ways. Its truly humbling and alas also reeks of cow dung.

 

[tieguy]

Re: What type of route is easier on your body?

I said in an earlier post in this thread I was done with him, and I am. He can call me names all day long now and won't get a single response from me.
It's just the internet.

Well that should be the end of this thread since I have always responded in kind to canons attacks.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tie,

Ironically, If you go to the bottom of this page, you will see a feature titled, similar threads. If you open the calling Tieguy thread, you can view several of my posts under my old username, Interested. The thread dates back to 2003 and much of the discussion was surrounding the results of a recent ERI.

It's actually a very good thread!!

 

[canon]

These are anonymous vehicles of expression. Rarely do people in any on-line forum not give you their honest exegesis of a given situation, good or bad.

ICON...I think it's just the opposite on sites. People exaggerate, bloviate, lie, fib, etc. They think they are invisible and can become whoever they want others to think they are. For example, chat rooms have people 55 yrs. old saying they are in their mid-20's. They weigh in at 430 lbs. and say they are the "athletic type"......yeah, for Sumo wrestling!

There's a ton of cow manure that comes across sites. You have to take most of it with a grain of salt.

JMHO

I think there's a clash of two ideas here. One serves to elevate the status of a person, or their physical image. True More, everyone in the dating chatrooms are "hotties" and lead very exciting lives which always seems to include hiking. I do a lot of hiking, and can tell you the trails just aren't that crowded.

But while everyone gets to be someone they're not, they also have the opportunity to be someone they are.

The closet racist who keeps his thoughts to himself for fear of reprisals at work or socially, suddenly becomes the neo-nazi propaganda machine masked by the anonymity of the internet. The teamster who agrees with the company on some issues and remains quiet at work to keep the peace with coworkers finds an outlet here. The supervisor who has to curtail his animosity toward union personnel during the day becomes someone his subordinates would never recognize if they saw the things said in this forum.

I can't imagine an anti-war protester logging into a forum and pretending to be an ardent Bush supporter in favor of sending more troops to Iraq. Democrats don't pretend to be Republicans. Nice people don't log in and pretend to be mean. Equal rights supporters don't pretend to be a racist. And a good manager doesn't pretend to be a bad one. In cyberspace, physiques are lean and lives are exciting... but I'll have to agree that ideas and beliefs are honest. Probably more honest here than out there.

 

[tieguy]

Tie,

Ironically, If you go to the bottom of this page, you will see a feature titled, similar threads. If you open the calling Tieguy thread, you can view several of my posts under my old username, Interested. The thread dates back to 2003 and much of the discussion was surrounding the results of a recent ERI.



It's actually a very good thread!!

Ah yes now I remember you. Have you had a workgroup assigned to yet where you can practice your beliefs?

 

[tieguy]

The teamster who agrees with the company on some issues and remains quiet at work to keep the peace with coworkers finds an outlet here.

From my perspective that that was the case at one time but is changing. Many of those teamster could speak up freely in the past. Not so now. For instance I have a lot of sidebars with different posters who are thinking of getting into management and don't want to hear the normal shots that are fired at them when they post publicly.

Nice people don't log in and pretend to be mean. Equal rights supporters don't pretend to be a racist. And a good manager doesn't pretend to be a bad one.

and along that line good drivers don't try to find a management person on the web site they can use as their whipping boy for the boss they are frustrated with at work.
You keep trying to play the wounded picked on driver/ teamster role here but you went out of your way to generate much of the grief you recieved from me. Once generated you then tried to moonwalk away from any responsibility and act as if I maliciously without provocation acted in a mean spirited fashion towards you.

You've done a terrific job of provoking me. take your credit, your dues, your honors. You've earned it.

 

[canon]

I have respect for both Tie and Canon as they both work for UPS. And in having respect for both, I would think they can put some of their posts behind them.

I'm thinking it has been 3 times now that I've been asked by others to be the one to step up to the plate and "ignore" the insults for the sake of the community. It seems this whole event has polarized the forum into three groups: those who have, and those who have not been insulted. The remaining group is made up of those who stayed out of it, but still had to put up with the posts. Maybe he's insulted some of the have nots in the past, I can only deal with what I've seen since creating my account.

The ones that have been insulted, ended up being the ones refered to as the "dog pack". Those that have not were/are the ones asking the ones who have to show maturity and drop it when he instigates. I find that to be somewhat backwards thinking, as it makes more sense to me to target the one dealing the insults in the first place. There even seems to be a general consensus that this isn't new. I have to wonder if there isn't some level of loyalty to someone who has been here that long. Maybe it's the "villian you love to hate" syndrome. I don't even think I'd been here a week when I was first called stupid, so you'll have to forgive me for not seeing this behavior as something we all are supposed to look the other way on.

I thought I was doing right by not returning namecalling with namecalling, and continually asking to simply deal with issues. I even used the churchsign as an attempt to bring some humor in and lighten things up. Of course I was an equal player in the game and had my share of jabs in response. The difference between us is my jabs are in reply to attack and have most often been included with an appeal to return to mature discussion. I still ask for posts to show me attacking out of the blue. I certainly don't think I did, and would be the first to apologize. It just isn't my MO. Again, anyone who finds one also please include the post I was responding to. The closest thing I could find was one where I was still trying to lighten things up and included the text "just kidding!" as part of the post. That was long after my first attempts to eliminate the insults.

My "attitude" towards management is a fabrication you're using to justify the insults you use towards me.

Just face the issues, and leave the insults behind Tie.

I don't like the double standards he has for hourly and salary nor his constant reliance on insults rather than discourse.

Tie, I'm going to ignore your insults and ask you to directly address the above statements.

Address the issues please.

No tie, I don't. I think we all know the record of who is dealing out the insults. Now, please add to the discussion.

Yeah, I can tell it's sincere. All your insults are.

Again with the insults. You must be the pride of Brown.

Call me stupid again, call me anything you like. I really don't care. I plan to continue to address issues that interest me. If you want to participate on a more mature level, you're more than welcome in any conversation I'm in. If not, it's no surprise to me.

I know you didn't. You said I was wrong... and a liar and stupid.

But rather than addressing the points of that post such as the impossible expecations, poor looping, and failures inherent to PAS, you picked the route of trying to silence me with insults and twisted logic.

I've not twisted your words. I've not lied. I've not sunk to namecalling. I've tried to stand on neutral ground when dealing with union/company issues. Every complaint I've raised here and at work has been in an effort to become a more efficient employee. The vast majority of drivers only want management to appreciate their efforts... but it's impossible when the numbers reduce those efforts to nothing more than saying we're all stealing company time by not working harder. For this, i'm called a stupid liar.

And i'm sure this is all just a misunderstanding between tieguy and myself. We disagree, that's cool. But him not liking me and resorting to insults doesn't reflect poorly on me.

Anything else is simply redundant. Tieguy, you fought to say I was a liar and stupid; I fought to try to get you to understand I wasn't making an attack on management as a whole. You fought to redeem your image when accused of talking bad about drivers; I fought to get you to understand the post was about fixing the problems at UPS so everyone benefits (drivers and management).

I'll give you last word, i'm sure you have more insults lined up for me. And I'll keep trying to remember why i'm not supposed to have a bad attitude towards my fearless leaders.

Address the issues and stop with the insults.

Call me names and you think I'm not justified to ask you to stop? I wonder how many times in the PAS thread I asked you to refrain from name calling and insults and simply address the issues.

The "guff" I have thrown your way is because of the way you behave in here with the insults.

Why don't you do the same for my requests for you to drop the insults and simply discuss the issues. Or better yet, post the number of times you've called me stupid, a liar, or lazy. I've tried to discuss things with you tie. I've tried being civil. Yes, there are management that don't deserve the tie and I come down hard on them. But that doesn't make me the person you keep trying to say I am. And your lies to the contrary "ring hollow" in the face of the evidence.

I'm sure you'll dismiss this as "crying", but try to include answers to the questions along with the insults this time.

I could care less about the rep, but it's hilarious you resort to trying to levy discipline on the internet rather than simply responding without insults.

For me, respect has to be re-earned once it is lost. I find if difficult to maintain respect for anyone simply because of their place of employment if it means having to ignore their behavior. Channon, I do respect your position in the matter and attempt to mediate a peaceful resolve. As for trying to put all this behind us? Sorry, but that ship has already sailed.

 

[tieguy]

For me, respect has to be re-earned once it is lost. I find if difficult to maintain respect for anyone simply because of their place of employment if it means having to ignore their behavior. Channon, I do respect your position in the matter and attempt to mediate a peaceful resolve. As for trying to put all this behind us? Sorry, but that ship has already sailed.

And hence again your effort to somehow make you the victim. A lot of work here selectively picking and choosing quotes where you may have said the right thing though I won't take the time to go back and research the context.

There have been many others where you attacked without provocation simply because you have selectively choosen me as your work related whipping boy.

Your words are out there. Why not provide us an objective post and post them as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have been able to manuever around the archives with more success than I had originally hoped. I like Tie's idea of objectivity.

Canon, I say we take Tieguys Challenge, you tackle objectivity from your postings and see if you can produce some of what Tie asks for.

I will do the same with Ties postings and serve up a few healpings of some of his earlier transgressions from the archives.

Objectivity notwithstanding, emperical evidence is king!!

 

[canon]

Canon, I say we take Tieguys Challenge, you tackle objectivity from your postings and see if you can produce some of what Tie asks for.

I will do the same with Ties postings and serve up a few healpings of some of his earlier transgressions from the archives.

The little blue arrows next to my name in the post takes you to the source of the quote. I already said I know I was an equal player in keeping things going, and dished out my share of jabs as a result of taking jabs. The list isn't an attempt to paint me "innocent" from returning fire, rather as proof my attempts all along have been to engage discourse without namecalling. I'm not sure how "please stop with the insults and address the issues" can be taken out of context, but that too is food for the researcher.

The challenge remains for him to post one single event where I attacked without provocation. If he has such an event in mind and doesn't know how to use the search feature, he's more than welcome to post the basic concept of what it was I said, maybe a few key words, and I'll do the search for him.

 

[tieguy]

The challenge remains for him to post one single event where I attacked without provocation. If he has such an event in mind and doesn't know how to use the search feature, he's more than welcome to post the basic concept of what it was I said, maybe a few key words, and I'll do the search for him.

In fact this latest tiff started because you attacked me without provocation.

Well actually since I am your management whipping boy here to pay for all the sins of your managment team I guess I provoked you simply by posting.

Now that I have proven you did attack me without provocation I will await your apology. Or I'll await your next post of tears.

 

[tieguy]

I have been able to manuever around the archives with more success than I had originally hoped. I like Tie's idea of objectivity.

Canon, I say we take Tieguys Challenge, you tackle objectivity from your postings and see if you can produce some of what Tie asks for.

I will do the same with Ties postings and serve up a few healpings of some of his earlier transgressions from the archives.

Objectivity notwithstanding, emperical evidence is king!!

Interested this is our little thread created in our honor. Feel free to post elsewhere.

 

[tieguy]

I have been able to manuever around the archives with more success than I had originally hoped. I like Tie's idea of objectivity.

Canon, I say we take Tieguys Challenge, you tackle objectivity from your postings and see if you can produce some of what Tie asks for.

I will do the same with Ties postings and serve up a few healpings of some of his earlier transgressions from the archives.

Objectivity notwithstanding, emperical evidence is king!!

moderators I'm looking for a ruling here. I'm in a boxing match with canon. Iconclast a member of canons corner just jumped into the ring. Therefore the fight should be ruled in my favor due to interference