UPS offer on the Table for takeover of Central States fund !

[wyobill]

In case you are wondering, I am still here reading all the information before coming to conclusions as many of you do. It appears that UPS wants to buy out of Central States so that its employees can receive what we are due. UPS is tired of contributing more and more each year, but their workers receive less and less. It doesn't make much financial sense. Do you agree? If the Teamsters continue on their present course of running/sinking (you choose) the pension fund, the insurance fund will kick in in a few years, and we all will receive a measly $1000 for our retirement after working 30 years or longer. One of the Trustees of the pension fund has stated in writing that the CS pension fund can not be fixed. You can verify this information on another thread on this forum.. Also, I have a document from the CS annual report saying that administration fees for 2005 were $120,123,218. Would you agree that this is beyond excessive? Are the Teamsters grabbing a nice piece of the pie for themselves? That is only for the pension plan. The Teamsters took an additional $62,070,842 in administration fees for the Health and Welfare benefits. It looks as if the only ones receiving benefits are the fat cats who run the Teamsters.

Before thr 97 strike cs retirement was 1,000 a month after 30 yrs of service. When UPS anounced the withdraw and offered upsers 3,000 a month with 30 yrs the teamsters hit the street
matching the offer the next day on Nat'l telivision.
UPS threw the towell in and the Teamsters resumed control
of cs and we all went back to work with the Teamsters claiming the biggest victory of all time. This current contract
we are still in the same boat and I cant see anything changing in the next one. Nothing will happen untill the earthquake really happens. At least apwa will make the teamsters think.
(maybe) ........ We need our own Union and UPS dollars
go to UPS employees only.

 

[mittam]

You have some interesting points of view, i to am happy with the pay. But what worries me is the change of the pension from a multi-employer to a ups-teamster pension. If ups continues to grow and stay the top dog then theres no worries, but if businees slips and we lose a fair market share over the next 30 plus years we will be revisiting a whole nother pension crisis! Example look at the uaw, once the big dog now not even a puppy anymore. Who will float our (retirees) pensions if that shoud happen. If ups cuts there workforce in half over the next 50 years and you have 200,000 pensioners drawing from it, thers no one else to float it. Now with the multi-employer fund we would be a burden on the then top dog pension fund contributer, and also have other companies assisting. We all hope that ups will continue to be the big dog, but as history has shown its not that likely!

what business do you have commenting here red? If we go to a single employer plan and it fails there is noone to bail us out? Interesting you say that cause there is noone to bail out the current plan other than ,,,, Oh yeah UPS...

 

[brett636]

what business do you have commenting here red? If we go to a single employer plan and it fails there is noone to bail us out? Interesting you say that cause there is noone to bail out the current plan other than ,,,, Oh yeah UPS...

Obviously your small mind doesn't comprehend what he is saying. UPS can bail us out now, but that may not always be the case. If UPS starts losing business to competitors they won't have the money to keep the pension fund afloat and we will be in the same boat 20-30 years from now. I still support the proposed idea, but going both directions have their associated risks.

 

[705red]

what business do you have commenting here red? If we go to a single employer plan and it fails there is noone to bail us out? Interesting you say that cause there is noone to bail out the current plan other than ,,,, Oh yeah UPS...

Me,me,me,me mittam, open your eyes and look at all the scenarios you horses . Brett hit it on the head!

 

[krash]

Let me guess AC/DC rocking on out ! Or Peter Frampton "Do you feel like i do" ! Cause feeders makes me feels that way too ! So Krash we do have some things in common - Biscuits n gravy too ?

Mmmmmmm, gravy. Gravy goes with everything
WG, for some reason, after going into feeder, my pants started to shrink1
It's the darndest thing. It also appears they started making them smaller so I had to go up two sizes

 

[krash]

Obviously your small mind doesn't comprehend what he is saying. UPS can bail us out now, but that may not always be the case. If UPS starts losing business to competitors they won't have the money to keep the pension fund afloat and we will be in the same boat 20-30 years from now. I still support the proposed idea, but going both directions have their associated risks.

One of the benefits I received from the multi-employer plan was from the fact that I received credit while working as a casual at Carolina Freight. Also, if anyone of us was to leave UPS for whatever reason, we could go to a Teamster represented LTLer to to get the rest of our time in.

 

[krash]

Before thr 97 strike cs retirement was 1,000 a month after 30 yrs of service. When UPS anounced the withdraw and offered upsers 3,000 a month with 30 yrs the teamsters hit the street
matching the offer the next day on Nat'l telivision.
~Are you sure it was the very next day? Because the Teamster would have to get the board members to agree to such an increase along with discussing it with CS to see if it was doable.
UPS threw the towell in and the Teamsters resumed control
of cs and we all went back to work with the Teamsters claiming the biggest victory of all time.
~Well I felt it was an improvement. We finally got some language to start creating more FT jobs
This current contract
we are still in the same boat and I cant see anything changing in the next one.
~The amount we can draw is still higher than it was before 97, correct.
Nothing will happen untill the earthquake really happens. At least apwa will make the teamsters think.
(maybe) ........ We need our own Union and UPS dollars
go to UPS employees only.
~ I think we need to get more involved and start electing those that will better represent and actually vote a contract down that doesn't full fill all our proposals.

 

[wyobill]

It may have not been the next day but the counter offer came real fast by a Teamster spokesman. If UPS didnt try to bail out in 97 we would still be recieving 1,000 a month.
Creating those full time jobs was nothing more than a smokescreen. The strike was all about the pension!
CS is a teamster controlled pension fund. Remember unions are in business to control pensions. Little fingers have been in this cookie jar and I can only imagine who has been behind it.

 

[Cezanne]

The strike in "97" was all about creating full time jobs for the sole reason to add additional younger participants along with their monetary contributions. I have contract bulletins from the "93" contract that stated that UPS brought to the table the orginal idea of getting out of the teamster's multi-pension funds. It did not take much time after the "97" contract passed that the Central States fund raised their pension to the 100 dollars a year service levels. Just how much effect that the failed take over had to with Carey pressuring those trustees for those increases who knows. Truth be told since the federal government has been snooping around the Central States funds since the early 80's for corruption, I believe the facts of why the funds took a dive to the current levels. It had to be some real bad investment decisions made my the investment firms that were handlng these trusts with additional burdens from bankrupt/defunct companies leaving the contributor base. Add the increase of members eligible to retire and you can see the disaster. Question should be asked to were where the fiduciaries involved in these actions, should they have seen this "perfect storm" on the horizon. I have a feeling that there is alot of smoke over this issue just to cover up some "Good Old Boys" who should of not been in the high risk positions as Central States trustees that they were given.

This Central States buy out is very doable, most of us are vested orginally under the companies part time plan. It roughly took 8 to 15 years seniority to bid on a full time position. Four billion is nothing to UPS, they will probadly take it out of their management's retirement trust and still have 6 billion to pay their promised benefit. I would imagine that any contractual monetary increases will occur with the pension and health and welfare part of our compensation. The teamsters will still have equal representation, much in line with the Chicago's and New York's joint pension funds. All vested rights under the Central States fund that current and retired participants are protected under ERISA laws. That being said things to watch out for if this occurs are the fine print with any benefit package, like the ability to subtracting any social security earnings when eligible from your retirement benefits.
Add to that any fine print with retirement medical, the costs and when will you be eligible. Agree with everybody on this so far at least we might be seeing a "light at the end of the tunnel", guess we have to wait and see

 

[krash]

Four billion is nothing to UPS, they will probably take it out of their management's retirement trust

Now I like that idear

 

[mittam]

Me,me,me,me mittam, open your eyes and look at all the scenarios you horses . Brett hit it on the head!

I understand what both of you are saying, about future of UPS. Same as current times though UPS is all that can bail out these funds, if we go bad these funds are over, same as in future if UPS goes bad in single fund. There is no strenght in numbers in the current plan the only number is UPS . Start throwing names around you idiot I can take it, come on give it your best shot, till then kiss mya$$

 

[705red]

I understand what both of you are saying, about future of UPS. Same as current times though UPS is all that can bail out these funds, if we go bad these funds are over, same as in future if UPS goes bad in single fund. There is no strenght in numbers in the current plan the only number is UPS . Start throwing names around you idiot I can take it, come on give it your best shot, till then kiss mya$$

Whos the idiot? Go through your posts and then go through my posts, now whos the idiot? Remember one of the rules here is dont type anything you wouldnt say to the person face to face. Let me know when you apwa puks are coming to chicago, we can have that face to face, until then smarten up and post with real solutions or positive ideas and not the chicken little mentality you have been using!

 

[jware]

Let me start out by saying Im40 years old with 12 years at ups, and 7.5 of those years as a full time employee. This pension problem is my number one concern with this up comming contract. I'm all for watching out for those who came before me, believe me, I'm a third generation union man. However, saying that, its hard for me to understand that after the latest pension cuts, all of which are being absorbed by those of use that are still working is anywhere fair. Those that came before us are the ones that put us in this situation. And look at social security, it's the same thing. More taking out than putting in. Those that are allready reitred don't want any changes that will effect the amount of money they recieve each month, even if those of use that are still working will be the ones that haft to sacarfice. At some point you haft to get of that dead horse. I for one, am not ready to sell out my future for the sake of those that came before me. It would be differnt if there was some light at the end of the tunnel, as for me I see none. Ive got a pension plan that hasn't been viable for at least 5 years, social security thats in the same boat, and I have 25 more years before I'm 65 and can retire. And if you believe I can retire at 65 in 25 more years I've got some swamp land in Florida I'd be glad to sell you. The comparison of UPS with ENRON is not a way to look at it for those against this deal. UPS makes money doing a tangable thing, picking up and delivering packages. ENRON made money over the computer trading commodities. Not saying that UPS will always be the giant in the shipping industry, but thier really two differnt monsters. All I'm trying to say is think about about it for a while, especially those of us that have a while to go before we're able to retire. At what cost to your future are you ready to gamble away on faith. There's no guarantees in this world, but if your honest with yourself do you really think that the plan we're under now is going to be there when it's our turn to collect.

 

[705red]

Let me start out by saying Im40 years old with 12 years at ups, and 7.5 of those years as a full time employee. This pension problem is my number one concern with this up comming contract. I'm all for watching out for those who came before me, believe me, I'm a third generation union man. However, saying that, its hard for me to understand that after the latest pension cuts, all of which are being absorbed by those of use that are still working is anywhere fair. Those that came before us are the ones that put us in this situation. And look at social security, it's the same thing. More taking out than putting in. Those that are allready reitred don't want any changes that will effect the amount of money they recieve each month, even if those of use that are still working will be the ones that haft to sacarfice. At some point you haft to get of that dead horse. I for one, am not ready to sell out my future for the sake of those that came before me. It would be differnt if there was some light at the end of the tunnel, as for me I see none. Ive got a pension plan that hasn't been viable for at least 5 years, social security thats in the same boat, and I have 25 more years before I'm 65 and can retire. And if you believe I can retire at 65 in 25 more years I've got some swamp land in Florida I'd be glad to sell you. The comparison of UPS with ENRON is not a way to look at it for those against this deal. UPS makes money doing a tangable thing, picking up and delivering packages. ENRON made money over the computer trading commodities. Not saying that UPS will always be the giant in the shipping industry, but thier really two differnt monsters. All I'm trying to say is think about about it for a while, especially those of us that have a while to go before we're able to retire. At what cost to your future are you ready to gamble away on faith. There's no guarantees in this world, but if your honest with yourself do you really think that the plan we're under now is going to be there when it's our turn to collect.

Jware great points, it looks like a great fix, but when you look at it more its not a great long term fix. Do you think the uaw ever thought they would be over ran by imported cars? The uaw was the big dog for many decades, now they feel the pain. I am up for looking at any and all ideas, but im never going to agree to a single employer, and thats not the selfish teamster in me speaking, it just makes more sense to be in a multi-employer fund. I also think every one related to the cs pension fund should resign and lets get some competent financail investors to fix it over a slow sensible timeframe, instead of high risking all the eggs in one basket.

 

[Braveheart]

I agree to a point, you have just retired and your company goes under, should you lose what you have earned to that point, or should your pension become say 50% of it because your old company no longer pays into the plan?

Companies come and go and is it fair to penalize already retired retirees? Our problem is with the cs and obviously some very bad investments not with the retirees.

If we option out are we turning our backs on the retirees and saying we dont care about you?

Or should we stay and fight and help the plan stabilize and carry some of the burden of the retired teamsters?

Not picking sides just looking through several different sets of eyes at the overall big picture.

Good points. It reminds me of when my father said that the military would give them medical for life. Now they only get it to 65. Not a good analogy but what are we doing to the retirees who built both this company and the Teamsters?

One thing is for sure. Never trust UPS! We should hire 3 different outside companies to read the fine print. And not the idiots we hired last time that told us what we got for the pension was enough.

 

[Braveheart]

if u are collecting a pension and the compamy u worked for goes out of business or stops contributing to the fund those participants should have to go to the pbgc fund. it is unfair to have them collect a full pension at the expense of other members whos companies are paying their fair share. to argue otherwise is like saying u should get paid for not working isnt that socialism

So because our SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM IS SHOT WE SHOULD TELL ALL OF OUR RETIRED RELATIVES TO HIT THE BRICKS SO WE CAN TAKE CARE OF OUR SELVES? You know cut their checks, pull money out, invest it in another venue and tell them too bad? You guys forget that they paid in through all of their years of hard work too. CS sucks. But we got to take care of the guys we made promises to regardless of where they worked.

 

[badpas]

You have some interesting points of view, i to am happy with the pay. But what worries me is the change of the pension from a multi-employer to a ups-teamster pension. If ups continues to grow and stay the top dog then theres no worries, but if businees slips and we lose a fair market share over the next 30 plus years we will be revisiting a whole nother pension crisis! Example look at the uaw, once the big dog now not even a puppy anymore. Who will float our (retirees) pensions if that shoud happen. If ups cuts there workforce in half over the next 50 years and you have 200,000 pensioners drawing from it, thers no one else to float it. Now with the multi-employer fund we would be a burden on the then top dog pension fund contributer, and also have other companies assisting. We all hope that ups will continue to be the big dog, but as history has shown its not that likely!

 

[Ms.PacMan]

My guess if that were to happen then future employees would be affected first. They would discontinue pensions for new-hires and offer a matching contribution to their 401K.

 

[wildgoose]

So because our SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM IS SHOT WE SHOULD TELL ALL OF OUR RETIRED RELATIVES TO HIT THE BRICKS SO WE CAN TAKE CARE OF OUR SELVES? You know cut their checks, pull money out, invest it in another venue and tell them too bad? You guys forget that they paid in through all of their years of hard work too. CS sucks. But we got to take care of the guys we made promises to regardless of where they worked.

Looks like Central States dropped the ball when it comes to responsibility eh Braveheart ? If UPS were to pay the 4 billion to buy out Central States where would that money go and ABF saying the same ? They would have many a less receipients to pay for in the future ? yes. Making it more solid. They might have to restructure but they`re going to have to do it one way or another if it goes below the 40% funding and Fred Gregare says the fund is beyond repair at its present state ! New England fund is ahead of us in lack of performance to and if you look at My2cents funding list, the rest have lackluster funding too ? Not a pretty site for sure. Now the teamsters have set up the company with the Edge when it comes to nogotiotiations with this egg hanging over their head ! They have a compromised position (broken leg) going into battle. It really makes me wonder most of the time what they are doing ?

 

[JonFrum]

"Beyond Repair" . . . Really???

. . .Fred Gregare says the fund is beyond repair at its present state !. . .

I doubt Central States Trustee Fred Gregare ever said that. Can you provide proof?

The fund is in poor shape, but there is a (painful) recovery plan in place. The benefit accruals were cut to reduce expenses, and the employer contribution rates were increased to improve income. Normally decreased outflow and increased income will lead to an improving situation over time. Unfortunately Central States is starting from a very low point to begin with, and it will take years for the strategy's positive results to accmulate. It may even take a year or two to "turn the ship around" before the funding percentage begins to steadily climb.

The present stock market rise is helping as well don't you think?

[As always, I'm not *defending* the poor state of the fund, just trying to comment on it evenhandedly.]