Vote count.

[Thoroughbred Teamster]

I

Love it. Yes, the laws are awful, and were so at the outset of the so-called 'golden age' of American capitalism, e.g., legitimate strikes are always worth 1000 times more than votes. Taft-Hartley passed in, what, 1947?

A Wobblie-esque side-note to the Janus v AFSCME decision which paves the way for a national 'right-to-work' law: if the unions didn't see this moment as the one to drop anchor, then I'm afraid they've already thrown in the towel. The same rationale the court used undermines the sacred 'no taxation without representation' principle. Basically the decision invoked free speech to nullify unchosen representation (for people who would still enjoy the said benefits of union representation). All right, fine. Rather than b**ch about it, why not turn this around on the government? If it's a free speech issue for public sector unions to collect dues from non-members, why isn't it a free speech issue for the government to collect taxes from those of us who haven't signed off on its rights to 'represent' us? (Haven't all our signatures been falsified?)

Even the few protections workers did have in the Gilded A

I thought similarly about the free speech & taxes comparison you mentioned, but instead of taxes I thought about my HOA dues, lol.

Love it. Yes, the laws are awful, and were so at the outset of the so-called 'golden age' of American capitalism, e.g., legitimate strikes are always worth 1000 times more than votes. Taft-Hartley passed in, what, 1947?

A Wobblie-esque side-note to the Janus v AFSCME decision which paves the way for a national 'right-to-work' law: if the unions didn't see this moment as the one to drop anchor, then I'm afraid they've already thrown in the towel. The same rationale the court used undermines the sacred 'no taxation without representation' principle. Basically the decision invoked free speech to nullify unchosen representation (for people who would still enjoy the said benefits of union representation). All right, fine. Rather than b**ch about it, why not turn this around on the government? If it's a free speech issue for public sector unions to collect dues from non-members, why isn't it a free speech issue for the government to collect taxes from those of us who haven't signed off on its rights to 'represent' us? (Haven't all our signatures been falsified?)

Even the few protections workers did have in the Gilded Age, aka Golden Age of Capitalism, they were rarely enforced and when challenged in the courts, labor never won.

I've followed Janus and have a good grasp on it but I don't hear much of any repercussions from it yet? Too early to tell or have a negative impact?
I thought similarly about the free speech & taxes comparison you mentioned, but instead of taxes I thought about my HOA dues, lol.

I know a lot of folks gripe about living in CA, and I have my own but I am grateful at how pro-union we are, but I constantly say that can't be taken for granted.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

After thinking on the matter some more, it occurs to me that fear is probably the most effective way to overcome people's apathetic inertia. It is used constantly by politicians to get people to support them and their agendas. I am not a fan of the idea, as it is often dishonest and manipulative, but if it is the only option to get people involved, it is worth discussing. What do union workers fear most?

 

[542thruNthru]

Members show a vested interest when they feel it's something that affects them. Yes they will come to you first when they feel you know what you're talking about but getting them to take the extra step in getting involved usually involves a career threatening/changing event in my eyes.

Like I said @zubenelgenubi

Most don't care until something like that happens.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Like I said @zubenelgenubi

Most don't care until something like that happens.

Right, they fear management, and the potential loss of their job, more than just about anything else. Management plays on that and keeps them cowed. Perhaps we could get them to fear their own spinelessness more? Show them they don't have to be manipulated? I don't know, just spit ballin'. If we don't at least try to come up with a solution, we may as well just accept the inevitable end of the era of unionism in the US.

 

[542thruNthru]

Right, they fear management, and the potential loss of their job, more than just about anything else. Management plays on that and keeps them cowed. Perhaps we could get them to fear their own spinelessness more? Show them they don't have to be manipulated? I don't know, just spit ballin'. If we don't at least try to come up with a solution, we may as well just accept the inevitable end of the era of unionism in the US.

Getting members to fear something is manipulating them. I want the members to be more involved but I don't think a shop steward should ever manipulate the members. It's a slippery slope and members should always feel they can trust their stewards.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Getting members to fear something is manipulating them. I want the members to be more involved but I don't think a shop steward should ever manipulate the members. It's a slippery slope and members should always feel they can trust their stewards.

I agree, and I wouldn't want to go that path either. Although it might be possible to do so and maintain honesty and integrity. Also, trustworthiness is kinda hollow when it is coupled with ineffectiveness. But I'm just trying to talk through the issue from the various angles.

The problem is that not only is management ok with manipulating and fearmongering, but it is their primary MO. When companies use such an effective tool to keep members complacent, what can be done to combat it? Even our culture informs us that it is normal and maybe even good to fear your boss. Appealing to a person's virtuousness might work on an individual basis, but not so much on a large scale.

Maybe the answer will be through attacking and altering the culture that encourages fearfulness.

 

[Whither]

Even the few protections workers did have in the Gilded Age, aka Golden Age of Capitalism, they were rarely enforced and when challenged in the courts, labor never won.

I've followed Janus and have a good grasp on it but I don't hear much of any repercussions from it yet? Too early to tell or have a negative impact?
I thought similarly about the free speech & taxes comparison you mentioned, but instead of taxes I thought about my HOA dues, lol.

I know a lot of folks gripe about living in CA, and I have my own but I am grateful at how pro-union we are, but I constantly say that can't be taken for granted.

Exactly. The good old days weren't so good. Still, in some ways I think they were better: the workforce was less pacified and, at times, capable of taking concerted, autonomous action to (try to) improve their lives.

It seems public sector unions haven't lost members in the wake of Janus. They just lost nearly all the dues-payers who never joined the union but were forced by law to pay 70-80 percent of regular dues. As someone who loathes being managed, I think the unions missed a golden opportunity to stop slowly fading away and at least go out with a bang. Okay, the government says we shouldn't be forced to pay membership fees against our will, even if the group we refuse to join and don't want to financially support provides outstanding benefits. Fine, we all get a choice whether to pay our taxes. HOAs too, haha. Hint: I will not be paying the government: the problem of Janus really resolves into this -- no taxation without representation isn't sufficient. Representation should not be coercive. Union representation is a minor case to me (let me be clear here, I am a dues-paying member!) compared to the government's representation of 'us'.

 

[LagunaBrown]

@542thruNthru You can go to a credit union and create a “Vacation fund” for your coworkers that people can contribute to but not eligible to withdraw on until the expiration date of the contract. (It is not wise to call it a strike fund thus the name “Vacation fund”). Speaking from experience don’t expect many people to do that either.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Love this thought. I have a hard time finding what I need on the spot due to the shear volume of the contract, then add in a supplement and label every topic as vaguely as possible. I read the contract a lot, but to memorize it seems daunting. I feel like it’s not even in a logical order, just a huge amount of rules and loose ideas strewn over 200 pages.

I put together an actual Table of Contents for the Master. I think it is better than the index format they used. There are a few articles that contain unrelated language, and some that have sections that really should be in other articles. I made some notes that should be helpful. I posted it in its own thread, but I'll upload it here too. Hope it helps, let me know what you think.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I put together an actual Table of Contents for the Master. I think it is better than the index format they used. There are a few articles that contain unrelated language, and some that have sections that really should be in other articles. I made some notes that should be helpful. I posted it in its own thread, but I'll upload it here too. Hope it helps, let me know what you think.

"And the Teamster Trade Unionist award of the month goes to...."


@zubenelgenubi


For.... not only helping himself, but offering the same help to others.

 

[Bubblehead]

I put together an actual Table of Contents for the Master. I think it is better than the index format they used. There are a few articles that contain unrelated language, and some that have sections that really should be in other articles. I made some notes that should be helpful. I posted it in its own thread, but I'll upload it here too. Hope it helps, let me know what you think.

"And the Teamster Trade Unionist award of the month goes to...."


@zubenelgenubi


For.... not only helping himself, but offering the same help to others.

I like it, I truly do.

....but it pales comparison to a digital (pdf) version of the contract on any device capable of downloading a (pdf) file and has a search function.

#FACT



~Bbbl~™

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I like it, I truly do.

....but it pales comparison to a digital (pdf) version of the contract on any device capable of downloading a (pdf) file and has a search function.

#FACT



~Bbbl~™

I agree, I like having the contract on my phone. It never hurts to have more tools in the tool box.

 

[Inthegame]

I like it, I truly do.

....but it pales comparison to a digital (pdf) version of the contract on any device capable of downloading a (pdf) file and has a search function.

#FACT



~Bbbl~™

Damn...and I thought you memorized the whole book!

 

[Faceplanted]

Our votes do not matter any more. The last 2 contracts have showed this. Many people simply don’t care because as they see it, there is no point.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Our votes do not matter any more. The last 2 contracts have showed this. Many people simply don’t care because as they see it, there is no point.

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

Our votes do not matter any more. The last 2 contracts have showed this. Many people simply don’t care because as they see it, there is no point.

The 2013 contract was actually voted in even though we had less than a 40% turnout. The 2018 had a little more people vote but it was voted down and imposed on us. Of we get enough people to vote maybe we will get a better contract next time?

 

[B-Brown]

THAT'S RIGHT!


And, where was your in 2013 when we voted the contract down?

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

THAT'S RIGHT!


And, where was your in 2013 when we voted the contract down in 2013?

It wasn't voted down in 2013

 

[B-Brown]

It wasn't voted down in 2013

No? It was a figment of our imaginations?

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

No? It was a figment of our imaginations?

Final Results For UPS Contract Vote Released