Vote count.

[zubenelgenubi]

I take it you've seen Harlan County, USA? Yes, that's only one example of many in which it's clear that the rank and file's interest is not identical to the union's, let alone the company's or the government's.

It's hard to say that a fair portion of people don't face awful circumstances. How many children are considered malnourished in this country, by far the richest that's ever existed? How many people commit suicide or else wreck their lives via drug/alcohol addictions? How many people are on prescriptions for depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc etc etc? As RPCDs we still make good money, but that's the exception that proves the rule. And of course even our working conditions are very far from ideal, and we are correct to detest them. Last week I narrowly missed ending my career thanks to a set of 110lb irregs ... was this close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 pieces that had been jammed on top of several other irregs and between the shelves ... was this! close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 ft pieces that had been jammed on top of numerous other irregs and was stuck between the shelves of my P-1200 to boot ... would've hit my ramped hand truck on the way down to the deck ...

Since the Recession I have watched the midwestern city where I reside slowly but surely go the way of the coastal cities. More lofts and condos, more boutiques, higher rents, flatlined wages -- at a glance everything looks bright and shiny. But you walk and drive the streets, the bum population grows every year. The murder rates are almost as high as during the peak of the 80s-early 90s crime wave. People are working 3 part-time jobs with no benefits to hack it in an 'affordable' city.

I will never deny anyone the dignity of their struggle.

 

[Whither]

@zubenelgenubi FWIW I think you've captured an essential hurdle: contentment breeds complacency. Someone wisely warned that it was not enough for workers to demand a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, but that we should go ahead and insist on the abolition of wage labor altogether. It's a darkly comical fact of history that some Roman slaves were fabulously wealthy.

I don't consider myself a leftist because I think the Bill Gateses and David Abneys of the world are more preoccupied with the whims of the market than I am ... to me capital(ism) is not a conspiracy of evil fat-cats, it would do no good to chop off the leaders'/owners' heads and run the factories, warehouses, governments ourselves (let alone have the Party run them on 'our' behalves!) ...

We've learned to equate freedom with the ability to buy many, if not all, the things that tickle our fancy, but is that freedom? I don't think the ability to buy houses, cars, fancy dinners, nice clothes, vacations, blah blah blah has much at all to do with the ability to affirm and take responsibility for oneself ... but, y'know, Fight Club ruined me on this society at age 17 and consistent reading of Nietzsche did the rest ...

 

[Integrity]

I take it you've seen Harlan County, USA? Yes, that's only one example of many in which it's clear that the rank and file's interest is not identical to the union's, let alone the company's or the government's.

It's hard to say that a fair portion of people don't face awful circumstances. How many children are considered malnourished in this country, by far the richest that's ever existed? How many people commit suicide or else wreck their lives via drug/alcohol addictions? How many people are on prescriptions for depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc etc etc? As RPCDs we still make good money, but that's the exception that proves the rule. And of course even our working conditions are very far from ideal, and we are correct to detest them. Last week I narrowly missed ending my career thanks to a set of 110lb irregs ... was this close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 pieces that had been jammed on top of several other irregs and between the shelves ... was this! close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 ft pieces that had been jammed on top of numerous other irregs and was stuck between the shelves of my P-1200 to boot ... would've hit my ramped hand truck on the way down to the deck ...

Since the Recession I have watched the midwestern city where I reside slowly but surely go the way of the coastal cities. More lofts and condos, more boutiques, higher rents, flatlined wages -- at a glance everything looks bright and shiny. But you walk and drive the streets, the bum population grows every year. The murder rates are almost as high as during the peak of the 80s-early 90s crime wave. People are working 3 part-time jobs with no benefits to hack it in an 'affordable' city.

What actions have you taken to make things better?

 

[Integrity]

@zubenelgenubi FWIW I think you've captured an essential hurdle: contentment breeds complacency. Someone wisely warned that it was not enough for workers to demand a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, but that we should go ahead and insist on the abolition of wage labor altogether. It's a darkly comical fact of history that some Roman slaves were fabulously wealthy.

I don't consider myself a leftist because I think the Bill Gateses and David Abneys of the world are more preoccupied with the whims of the market than I am ... to me capital(ism) is not a conspiracy of evil fat-cats, it would do no good to chop off the leaders'/owners' heads and run the factories, warehouses, governments ourselves (let alone have the Party run them on 'our' behalves!) ...

We've learned to equate freedom with the ability to buy many, if not all, the things that tickle our fancy, but is that freedom? I don't think the ability to buy houses, cars, fancy dinners, nice clothes, vacations, blah blah blah has much at all to do with the ability to affirm and take responsibility for oneself ... but, y'know, Fight Club ruined me on this society at age 17 and consistent reading of Nietzsche did the rest ...

Again, what have you done to initiate positive change in your culture?

Wondering are you anti-union?

 

[Jkloc420]

Again, what have you done to initiate positive change in your culture?

Wondering are you anti-union?

yes

 

[zubenelgenubi]

@zubenelgenubi FWIW I think you've captured an essential hurdle: contentment breeds complacency. Someone wisely warned that it was not enough for workers to demand a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, but that we should go ahead and insist on the abolition of wage labor altogether. It's a darkly comical fact of history that some Roman slaves were fabulously wealthy.

I don't consider myself a leftist because I think the Bill Gateses and David Abneys of the world are more preoccupied with the whims of the market than I am ... to me capital(ism) is not a conspiracy of evil fat-cats, it would do no good to chop off the leaders'/owners' heads and run the factories, warehouses, governments ourselves (let alone have the Party run them on 'our' behalves!) ...

We've learned to equate freedom with the ability to buy many, if not all, the things that tickle our fancy, but is that freedom? I don't think the ability to buy houses, cars, fancy dinners, nice clothes, vacations, blah blah blah has much at all to do with the ability to affirm and take responsibility for oneself ... but, y'know, Fight Club ruined me on this society at age 17 and consistent reading of Nietzsche did the rest ...

Well said. As long as there is life, however, there will always be work to do. Wages are simply the most efficient way to exchange work for the essentials for living. We can't all be completely self sufficient until we solve the problem of free energy. Until then it behooves each of us to get the maximum return for our efforts.

We do have freedom through our right to determine our level of involvement in the market place. We can learn to make do with less and minimize the amount of work we have to do. I don't look at "bums" as a problem, necessarily. The homeless and hungry have avenues available to them. As far as I can tell, though, a large portion of the transient population has chosen the lifestyle over trying to fit into the rat race. As long as they don't violate anyone else's rights, they have the freedom to live that lifestyle, and that is a wonderful thing. We are ensnared only by our own expectations.

I appreciate the philosophy presented in Fight Club, as it challenges the consumerist culture (and the ennui that comes with it), and shows us one way to escape it. But it also shows the consequences and hardships involved in making that choice, so that maybe we can appreciate the relative comfort that we earn for ourselves.

 

[Whither]

Again, what have you done to initiate positive change in your culture?

Wondering are you anti-union?

Are you asking for a resume?

 

[Integrity]

Are you asking for a resume?

No.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

No need to be sad, if you can't conceptualize a problem within a theoretical framework, you can't hope to develop meaningful solutions.





I don't content myself with bemoaning problems and assigning blame to conjectural scapegoats in order to avoid responsibility in coming up with a solution. But the problems are complex, and must be broken down into manageable chunks, examined, understood, then solutions must be developed and tested. If you don't do those things, then you have to accept and embrace your role in being part of the problem, or maybe just live in denial.

Wow.


With that sort of brain power, and command of the English language....

The best you can do.... is work at UPS ?


Why aren't you "running the show" in your Local ?


That sounds insulting.

But, it's a legitimate question.



-Bug-

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Wow.


With that sort of brain power, and command of the English language....

The best you can do.... is work at UPS ?


Why aren't you "running the show" in your Local ?


That sounds insulting.

But, it's a legitimate question.



-Bug-

I'm writing the next Great American Novel. UPS keeps food on the table, plus it's a great work out. I come here when I get writer's block. My interactions here help me with character development. I can't commit more time to anything else at the moment, but once I'm published, who knows?

Disclaimer: the novel thing isn't exactly true, but it's close enough that it should answer your question satisfactorily if I am to give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word that you weren't just being insulting.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Came across this gem. Thought it would help to put some perspective on this issue of lack of member involvement.

“Interactions with people are the major source of emotional turmoil, but it doesn’t have to be that way. The problem is that we are continually judging people, wishing they were something that they are not… We want them to think and act a certain way, most often the way we think and act. And because this is not possible, because everyone is different, we are continually frustrated and upset. Instead, see other people as phenomena, as neutral as comets or plants. They simply exist. . . Work with what they give you, instead of resisting and trying to change them. Make understanding people a fun game, the solving of puzzles. It is all part of the human comedy.”

Robert Greene: The Laws of Human Nature

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Wow.


With that sort of brain power, and command of the English language....

The best you can do.... is work at UPS ?


Why aren't you "running the show" in your Local ?


That sounds insulting.

But, it's a legitimate question.



-Bug-

Also, don't take my last response as me saying I would be running my local if I were just able to focus my attention on doing so. Though I haven't completely ruled out the possibility of running for higher offices in the union in the future.

 

[Brownslave688]

Had a strike fund vote count today.

Over 8k ballots went out. Less than 14% were sent back.

Do we blame the PT workers for this? Let's face it ladies and gentlemen. It's the total membership that's lazy and doesn't care.

It's sad.

Attitude reflects leadership

 

[542thruNthru]

Attitude reflects leadership

Stop blaming your coach for your teams ty play.

 

[Whither]

No.

Ok. Then no dossier. You will have to take it on good faith that I am more interested in the well-being of us working stiffs than the union, which may or may not have our interests at heart.

 

[542thruNthru]

No worries, I'm really trying to work on keeping my posts shorter and clearer.

You're passionate and it shows. It's not a bad thing

Members will listen to me if they have a vested interest in the issue. I'm working on gaining their trust by increasing my understanding. If they see me as someone who knows what he is talking about, then I will have better luck at convincing them to do things like vote.

Members show a vested interest when they feel it's something that affects them. Yes they will come to you first when they feel you know what you're talking about but getting them to take the extra step in getting involved usually involves a career threatening/changing event in my eyes.

At the core of the apathy, I believe, is members being overwhelmed by the sheer complexity of the contract, company policy, the law, and how they all interplay. Most people simply don't have the time or resources to commit to understanding their rights and responsibilities properly. I believe we could start to turn the tide on apathy by fighting for simplification, clarity, and consistency with the contract and its enforcement.

The contract is a legal document. They are never simple. I disagree with your reasoning why people are apathetic. From my experience and the posts I've read on here most think of the union like they think of any service based industry. "I paid my money. I'm the customer now serve me!" To the average member a steward is a lawyer they think is on retainer. He/she should work constantly to make sure their needs are met. Not realizing these people deal with multiple problems a day and also have the same job and a life outside of it. It's your livelihood. Why would you not try to read the contract... because it's easier to make your steward/BA do it. That's what you pay them for right? (Sarcasm)

On a final note, I will say I sympathize with BA's. I understand that UPS is just one of the companies they have to deal with, and our contract is over 200 pages long, not to mention all the panel decisions and past practices that go along with it. I assume most other contracts aren't nearly as long, but that's still a lot of stuff for those guys to know and enforce.

200 pages long? That's just the Master. Mine is almost 400 pages. Now add in all the rest.

BAs have a tough job. I'm not trying to make excuses for the bad ones but when you think about the number of people that come to you in a week. Think about multiplying that my 10 and all expect results with in the day. The average member has no idea how their union even works. Again it's the service industry all over again. "I have a problem it's important and it needs to be handled ASAP!" not realizing it's like the court system. Things take time and something's take precedent over others.

 

[Integrity]

Ok. Then no dossier. You will have to take it on good faith that I am more interested in the well-being of us working stiffs than the union, which may or may not have our interests at heart.

Didn’t think you ever took action.

Are you anti-Union?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

You're passionate and it shows. It's not a bad thing



Members show a vested interest when they feel it's something that affects them. Yes they will come to you first when they feel you know what you're talking about but getting them to take the extra step in getting involved usually involves a career threatening/changing event in my eyes.


The contract is a legal document. They are never simple. I disagree with your reasoning why people are apathetic. From my experience and the posts I've read on here most think of the union like they think of any service based industry. "I paid my money. I'm the customer now serve me!" To the average member a steward is a lawyer they think is on retainer. He/she should work constantly to make sure their needs are met. Not realizing these people deal with multiple problems a day and also have the same job and a life outside of it. It's your livelihood. Why would you not try to read the contract... because it's easier to make your steward/BA do it. That's what you pay them for right? (Sarcasm)



200 pages long? That's just the Master. Mine is almost 400 pages. Now add in all the rest.

BAs have a tough job. I'm not trying to make excuses for the bad ones but when you think about the number of people that come to you in a week. Think about multiplying that my 10 and all expect results with in the day. The average member has no idea how their union even works. Again it's the service industry all over again. "I have a problem it's important and it needs to be handled ASAP!" not realizing it's like the court system. Things take time and something's take precedent over others.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't disagree with any of it, though I would say that though the union isn"t a service, it is an agency. The union is there to represent the member's and their interests. I think of it more like an agent for a sports star.

The difference is the sports agent represents a handful of clients and they all pay a much larger percent of their negotiated salary so that agent can give them personal attention. The clueless members expect to be treated like the sports stars, but in a sense, you get what you pay for. I do think we get a great deal for what we pay, but it is made possible, in a large part, by the uncompensated efforts of the involved members.

If we helped people adjust their expectations, and lower the bar for them to understand their rights (by putting the information in a form that is accessible to the lowest common denominator), I think that would be a great start to rallying the membership.

 

[MyTripisCut]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't disagree with any of it, though I would say that though the union isn"t a service, it is an agency. The union is there to represent the member's and their interests. I think of it more like an agent for a sports star.

The difference is the sports agent represents a handful of clients and they all pay a much larger percent of their negotiated salary so that agent can give them personal attention. The clueless members expect to be treated like the sports stars, but in a sense, you get what you pay for. I do think we get a great deal for what we pay, but it is made possible, in a large part, by the uncompensated efforts of the involved members.

If we helped people adjust their expectations, and lower the bar for them to understand their rights (by putting the information in a form that is accessible to the lowest common denominator), I think that would be a great start to rallying the membership.

I also believe that the company creates an environment that harbors Teamster vs. Teamster. And they ultimately win when that happens. Members have to embrace each other, runner gunners, slugs, Diad holster wearers, PT, FT, feeders and so on, or we all lose. The only ones to exclude are safety committee wannabe management types.

 

[542thruNthru]

I also believe that the company creates an environment that harbors Teamster vs. Teamster. And they ultimately win when that happens. Members have to embrace each other, runner gunners, slugs, Diad holster wearers, PT, FT, feeders and so on, or we all lose. The only ones to exclude are safety committee wannabe management types.

These people are a menace