Voter Suppression
- Thread starter wkmac
- Start date
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
The results would have been neglible and not worth the time and expense to check.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
That is also quite possible.
moreluck
golden ticket member
I remember reading about people going back and finding fake signatures on a petition trying to get Obama as a candidate.......if they didn't have the amount of signatures, they signed people's names without them knowing.
They looked up the people and they said "no" I never signed that.
I would certainly know if I signed it.....because I never sign anybody's petition.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
Signing a petition for candidacy and pulling the lever using someone else's name are not nearly one in the same.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
Yes but one much more significantly than the other.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
On one hand you support disenfranchising voters by have their votes cancelled out by fraud, but on the other hand you claim you oppose it. Just doesn't make sense.
The problem isn't so much the verified fraud it is the unverified fraud that needs to be halted. There is no reason to all peoples votes to be cancelled out with all this fraud over the extremely slight possibility that someone cannot figure out how to get a free ID.
I suppose the left just needs to fabricate something to try and shift peoples focus away from what they are actually concerned about.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
Even officials in PA couldn't point to any specific voter fraud, but, like you, said that wasn't the point.
I like your logic - it's not the 0.004% verified voter fraud you're worried about, it's the (who knows? 1 Billion % unverified voter fraud!!!) which is the real problem.
So you're willing to disenfranchise (in actual real life) multiple thousands of eligible voters, so that you can knock out the (how many exactly?) verified cases of voter fraud, but more importantly, all the imaginary cases of voter fraud?
I'm simply not convinced that there's rampant voter fraud requiring these new regulations and legislation.
If you're hinging your argument on an unknown quantity of unverified voter fraud, I'm just not sure what to say.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
You offer no proof that anyone eligible to vote cannot figure out how to get a free ID but I'm supposed to believe this is some type of disenfranchisement of voters.
On the other hand there is not way to verify that those who are actually voting in an election are actually eligible but I'm just supposed to believe you that they all are.
Thats just not logical.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
Now we're both dealing with intangibles, no way out there.
My larger point is, why is this all of the sudden such a burning problem?
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
It's not suddenly a burning problem. States have been losing their right to govern themselves for decades.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
Here's a tidbit about how the laws selectively target minorities, elderly, and the poor:
"...This phenomenon takes the form of a spate of new voter laws: efforts by Republican governors and Republican-controlled state legislatures to pass restrictive new voting rules just in time for election day. As a result, at least 5 million Americans could essentially lose their right to vote, according to the non-partisan Brennan Center in New York...
The most common tactic is to heavily restrict the types of identification required at polling stations. In Pennsylvania, for example, that means requiring all voters to present very limited types of ID only available from the state's department of transportation. Since many inner-city voters don't drive, or many young voters have out-of-state driver's licenses, these likely Obama voters will all be stopped dead in their tracks before they reach the polling booth. The problem is so severe that the state of Pennsylvania itself has admitted that nearly 10% of voters do not have the required identification. In Philadelphia, an Obama stronghold, that figure is closer to 20%. Attorney General Eric Holder summed it up perfectly when he called these voter ID measures the equivalent of a "poll tax", at the NAACP summit in July.
In Florida, where history proves that less than 1,000 votes can swing a national election, the efforts to stop minorities and the poor from voting are not just limited to new voter identification laws. In fact, voter registration drives have been banned, and early voting, thought to favor Democrats, has been significantly curtailed. Even more worrying is Governor Rick Scott's attempt simply to remove Obama voters from the election rolls. In May, Scott ordered a purge of his state's voter lists, based on drivers' license records, which he acknowledged to be deeply flawed.
As a result, the state's division of elections initially found a mind-boggling 180,000 "ineligible voters" by performing a search of a computer database with inaccurate information. Yet, the purge goes on: the Miami Herald found that 58% of the people in a sample of 2,700 "ineligible" voters were Hispanic, and 14% were black. Whites and Republicans were least likely to be barred from voting. Even a second world war veteran was told he was not a citizen and so to stay away from the voting booth."
Here's some more:
"...Minorities are less likely to have driver’s licenses because they are more likely to be poor and to live in urban areas. If you can’t afford a car, or if you don’t need one because you take the bus or subway, you are less likely to have a driver’s license. Students are less likely to have driver’s licenses for the same reasons (plus the fact that they can sometimes rely on student IDs, and may just have not gotten around to getting a driver’s license yet). Moreover, minorities may be more likely to have lost their driver’s licenses: The Wisconsin study found that an estimated 8 percent of Hispanic adults and 17 percent of African-American adults had no current license but had a recent suspension or revocation. Almost half of suspended driver’s licenses were due to failure to pay outstanding fines, which may explain why poor people are less likely to have licenses.
Driver’s licenses are not the only accepted forms of identification, but minorities may face extra challenges in securing other legally valid IDs. Passports, military IDs, and other government-issued photo ID are generally accepted, and some states accept student ID cards from state universities. Texas accepts concealed-weapons licenses, but New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice points out that African-Americans are also less likely to have these concealed-gun permits. For voters who need to secure a valid ID, tracking down the necessary documents—such as a birth certificate and social security card—can take time and money, and the Brennan Center additionally reports that many voting centers are far away from minority voters and are rarely open. Minorities also move from state to state more frequently, which makes meeting varying requirements for documentation more difficult, and Hispanics often use different naming customs, which can make for additional confusion at the DMV or voting booth. Additionally, the Brennan Center suggests that minority voters are more likely to be carded at the polls."
Tell me how this isn't a power play.
"...This phenomenon takes the form of a spate of new voter laws: efforts by Republican governors and Republican-controlled state legislatures to pass restrictive new voting rules just in time for election day. As a result, at least 5 million Americans could essentially lose their right to vote, according to the non-partisan Brennan Center in New York...
The most common tactic is to heavily restrict the types of identification required at polling stations. In Pennsylvania, for example, that means requiring all voters to present very limited types of ID only available from the state's department of transportation. Since many inner-city voters don't drive, or many young voters have out-of-state driver's licenses, these likely Obama voters will all be stopped dead in their tracks before they reach the polling booth. The problem is so severe that the state of Pennsylvania itself has admitted that nearly 10% of voters do not have the required identification. In Philadelphia, an Obama stronghold, that figure is closer to 20%. Attorney General Eric Holder summed it up perfectly when he called these voter ID measures the equivalent of a "poll tax", at the NAACP summit in July.
In Florida, where history proves that less than 1,000 votes can swing a national election, the efforts to stop minorities and the poor from voting are not just limited to new voter identification laws. In fact, voter registration drives have been banned, and early voting, thought to favor Democrats, has been significantly curtailed. Even more worrying is Governor Rick Scott's attempt simply to remove Obama voters from the election rolls. In May, Scott ordered a purge of his state's voter lists, based on drivers' license records, which he acknowledged to be deeply flawed.
As a result, the state's division of elections initially found a mind-boggling 180,000 "ineligible voters" by performing a search of a computer database with inaccurate information. Yet, the purge goes on: the Miami Herald found that 58% of the people in a sample of 2,700 "ineligible" voters were Hispanic, and 14% were black. Whites and Republicans were least likely to be barred from voting. Even a second world war veteran was told he was not a citizen and so to stay away from the voting booth."
Here's some more:
"...Minorities are less likely to have driver’s licenses because they are more likely to be poor and to live in urban areas. If you can’t afford a car, or if you don’t need one because you take the bus or subway, you are less likely to have a driver’s license. Students are less likely to have driver’s licenses for the same reasons (plus the fact that they can sometimes rely on student IDs, and may just have not gotten around to getting a driver’s license yet). Moreover, minorities may be more likely to have lost their driver’s licenses: The Wisconsin study found that an estimated 8 percent of Hispanic adults and 17 percent of African-American adults had no current license but had a recent suspension or revocation. Almost half of suspended driver’s licenses were due to failure to pay outstanding fines, which may explain why poor people are less likely to have licenses.
Driver’s licenses are not the only accepted forms of identification, but minorities may face extra challenges in securing other legally valid IDs. Passports, military IDs, and other government-issued photo ID are generally accepted, and some states accept student ID cards from state universities. Texas accepts concealed-weapons licenses, but New York University’s Brennan Center for Justice points out that African-Americans are also less likely to have these concealed-gun permits. For voters who need to secure a valid ID, tracking down the necessary documents—such as a birth certificate and social security card—can take time and money, and the Brennan Center additionally reports that many voting centers are far away from minority voters and are rarely open. Minorities also move from state to state more frequently, which makes meeting varying requirements for documentation more difficult, and Hispanics often use different naming customs, which can make for additional confusion at the DMV or voting booth. Additionally, the Brennan Center suggests that minority voters are more likely to be carded at the polls."
Tell me how this isn't a power play.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
One serious problem. These state DMV's also offer non drivers license ID's. That makes at least two of the arguments in those articles invalid.
It's really looking like the left is becoming very desperate in trying to create some type of problem here. It's also becoming painfully obvious that the left has no interest in a fair and honest election by scanning through some of those articles.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
Buuuuut...
The point wasn't that you could get a driver's license vs. non-driver's license ID at these state's DMV's, the point was that a non-insignificant population of (eligible to vote) minorities live outside of 10 miles of DMV locations that run on banker's hours: it's a real hardship for them to obtain proper ID, which they've not needed before, to exercise their right to vote.
Nevermind.
(Between 2002 and 2005 the Justice Department had less than 30 verified cases of voter fraud: this is a 'weapons of mass-destruction/gulf of Tonkin' kind of argument.
If you're comfortable leveraging <30 ineligible votes vs. over a million eligible-but-denied votes in the name of 'states' rights', then I know exactly what you're saying.)
moreluck
golden ticket member
And, if somebody picks you up and takes you to the location and no fees are charged, people would still find a complaint.
moreluck
golden ticket member
Maybe you should write to this person in jail and tell them that voter fraud is "non-existent"
Mississippi NAACP Official Convicted for Casting Deceased's Absentee Ballots
Mississippi NAACP Official Convicted for Casting Deceased's Absentee Ballots
MAYBE YOU should realize that voter fraud has existed for the GOP as well. Its amazing how you dimiss the concept the the GOP is a bunch of cheaters and attempt to lay blame on the democrats when the internet is loaded with REAL stories of voter fraud by the GOP.
How about this official from the GOP???
Republican Candidate In Arizona Accused Of Voter Fraud | ThinkProgress
If you would like to see more, I would be happy to extend the conversation with many more links.
peace
TOS
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
Jesus, just admit it. Voter ID requirements are just a way to prevent people who don't usually vote Republican from voting. See, I said it for you. Simple.
upsgrunt
Well-Known Member
Who's to say it wouldn't favor the Dems?
If you would use the same skepticism on your president, you might have your eyes opened.
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